New Power (?)

[dsatow]

8 hours ago, Hyper-Man said:

Yes, Starburst was built with the limitation and it was implied that the limitation was the reason that he could use both powers simultaneously. However, there was no explicit rule stating that 2 different attack powers couldn't be used simultaneously vs a target without such a Limitation.

In fact there is a rule allowing you to use two different attack powers at the same time.  Combined attack 6e2p74.  In 4th ed, I don't think the rule is in the rule book but is adapted from Robotwarriors.

[Doc Democracy]

That was how the Great Linked Debate sustained itself, a clear lack of clear ruling.  :-)

[RDU Neil]

On ‎1‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 10:34 AM, Hyper-Man said:

Technically, Linked is not needed. Using two different attack powers (ex: HA + Drain, EB + Flash) vs the same target using the same attack roll has always been legal. It is common but not necessary to Link the two powers.

 

Has this "always" been legal, or only since 5th Edition, because I've played since 1st Edition b&w and no one has ever done this, ever, in any game. How does that work? Everybody in your games is EB and Flashing with every attack? Punching and Kicking a the same time, every time? That seems ridiculously overpowered to me.

[Jazzidemus]

Yikes, I was unaware this was a Debate from before. I was honestly thinking this was an easy one for the Council of Champions. Again gang thank you for this. I was just unsure how to proceed with it. 

[Hyper-Man]

3 hours ago, RDU Neil said:

 

Has this "always" been legal, or only since 5th Edition, because I've played since 1st Edition b&w and no one has ever done this, ever, in any game. How does that work? Everybody in your games is EB and Flashing with every attack? Punching and Kicking a the same time, every time? That seems ridiculously overpowered to me.

 

Punching and Kicking are not separate Powers.

[Hyper-Man]

I do not remember the particular thread but someone asked this question to the original 3e-4e designers back then and their answer was essentially what I stated upthread. 

 

Of course, I had brain cancer surgery back in march so I could be imagining things.

[Lucius]

On ‎1‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 7:16 PM, Hyper-Man said:

 

Punching and Kicking are not separate Powers.

 

Now they are

 

Punch:  (Total: 7 Active Cost, 6 Real Cost) Hand-To-Hand Attack +1d6 (5 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/4) (Real Cost: 4) <b>plus</b> +1 with any single attack (Real Cost: 2)

 

Kick:  (Total: 10 Active Cost, 8 Real Cost) Hand-To-Hand Attack +2d6 (10 Active Points); Foot-To-Head Attack (-1/4) (Real Cost: 8)

 

Punch with other hand:  (Total: 7 Active Cost, 6 Real Cost) Hand-To-Hand Attack +1d6 (5 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/4) (Real Cost: 4) <b>plus</b> +1 with any single attack (Real Cost: 2)

 

Kick with other foot:  (Total: 10 Active Cost, 8 Real Cost) Hand-To-Hand Attack +2d6 (10 Active Points); Foot-To-Head Attack (-1/4) (Real Cost: 8)

 

I can use all four in one phase against one target as a Combined Attack. What I'm not clear on is, can I use full STR with each of the four?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Kick with palindromedary's foot:  (Total: 20 Active Cost, 16 Real Cost) Hand-To-Hand Attack +4d6 (20 Active Points); Foot-To-Head Attack (-1/4) (Real Cost: 16)

[RDU Neil]

12 hours ago, Hyper-Man said:

I do not remember the particular thread but someone asked this question to the original 3e-4e designers back then and their answer was essentially what I stated upthread. 

 

Of course, I had brain cancer surgery back in march so I could be imagining things.

 

So, the implication is that, while never explicitly stated, the attack that ends your phase, and despite their being an explicit rule that you can only attack once per phase... that actually you can have an attack for every separate power you have? That doesn't seem intuitive... more like rules lawyers reading a lack of clear "no you can't" as a "can." I remember when it was stated in 5th Edition, and it was an appalling ruling, IMO, and luckily our group basically ignored it.

 

And as Lucius just demonstrated, this is a min-maxing nightmare I'd never want to deal with in game.

[Lucius]

5 minutes ago, RDU Neil said:

 

So, the implication is that, while never explicitly stated, the attack that ends your phase, and despite their being an explicit rule that you can only attack once per phase... that actually you can have an attack for every separate power you have? That doesn't seem intuitive... more like rules lawyers reading a lack of clear "no you can't" as a "can." I remember when it was stated in 5th Edition, and it was an appalling ruling, IMO, and luckily our group basically ignored it.

 

And as Lucius just demonstrated, this is a min-maxing nightmare I'd never want to deal with in game.

 

Have you forgotten how defenses work in Hero?

 

Assuming I CAN'T use STR with all attacks, only one punch will count. The rest of those tiny attacks will just bounce off.

 

And if you spend the points to have two effective attacks - which would be a lot of points, as they can't be in a framework together - they get to ding for x damage and ding again for x damage, whereas one big attack of the same point totals would ding for about 10X damage. Combined Attack means the defender gets to subtract their defense more than once from the damage done.

 

But you have a point about the ability to combine multiple sorts of attack - "I Blast AND Flash AND Entangle!" is doing a lot in one phase. Also, if you can buy lots of small Hand attacks or Killing Attacks and add STR to all of them.....although again, the target gets to subtract their defenses multiple times.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary is getting a kick out of the discussion

[Doc Democracy]

On 24/01/2018 at 11:17 PM, Jazzidemus said:

Yikes, I was unaware this was a Debate from before. I was honestly thinking this was an easy one for the Council of Champions. Again gang thank you for this. I was just unsure how to proceed with it. 

 

A debate from LONG ago and in a long forgotten HERO mailing list.  It was before official company boards.  But the arguments raged and raged across multiple topics of conversation.  We always found things to be outraged about....

 

:-)

[dsatow]

19 hours ago, Lucius said:

 

Now they are

 

Punch:  (Total: 7 Active Cost, 6 Real Cost) Hand-To-Hand Attack +1d6 (5 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/4) (Real Cost: 4) <b>plus</b> +1 with any single attack (Real Cost: 2)

 

Kick:  (Total: 10 Active Cost, 8 Real Cost) Hand-To-Hand Attack +2d6 (10 Active Points); Foot-To-Head Attack (-1/4) (Real Cost: 8)

 

Punch with other hand:  (Total: 7 Active Cost, 6 Real Cost) Hand-To-Hand Attack +1d6 (5 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/4) (Real Cost: 4) <b>plus</b> +1 with any single attack (Real Cost: 2)

 

Kick with other foot:  (Total: 10 Active Cost, 8 Real Cost) Hand-To-Hand Attack +2d6 (10 Active Points); Foot-To-Head Attack (-1/4) (Real Cost: 8)

 

I can use all four in one phase against one target as a Combined Attack. What I'm not clear on is, can I use full STR with each of the four?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Kick with palindromedary's foot:  (Total: 20 Active Cost, 16 Real Cost) Hand-To-Hand Attack +4d6 (20 Active Points); Foot-To-Head Attack (-1/4) (Real Cost: 16)

 

Yes, I believe you can use your full strength on each attack, but you must pay the full end for each attack separately.  Here's the problem.  Combined attacks couldn't use multiple combat/martial maneuvers or any two maneuvers which are too similar in nature in 5th ed.  Steve might have overlooked or he might have removed the restriction in 6th as he never quite says it and insteads goes on about Multiple attack (the more well known one).  I believe there also used to be a rule that the attacks all had to do the same OCV/DCV values so a power with concentrate and one without could not be used together.

 

So here's how I run it.  Your mileage may vary as this is a GM opinion per the rules on how to implement (i.e. if your GM wants to say its a multiple attack instead of a combined attack, they can).  

 

A combined attack must use a different power for each combined ability.  A punch or kick is considered the same power (a strike).  So you could punch with strength or HA, slice with a HKA, shoot with a machine gun and drop a grenade all in one action against a target (assume each of these separate attacks did not preclude the others).  You would have to pay the end for each attack as if they were each done separately and you would only need to roll to hit against the target's DCV (if an attack was an area of effect and is done with a direct fire attack, you lose the ability to strike at a hex's dcv).

[Jazzidemus]

Ok, here is a bit of the fluff that was the catalyst for this brain child of mine... So he is male child of Hippolyta. Male children are often given to Hephestus for weapons & armor. Sensing that he had the spark of a hero. Hephestus raised him in the forge to harden him. So in time his blows would would fall on his enemies like a hammer on an anvil.

[Jazzidemus]

Now I thought straight out just an end drain with the sfx 'exhaustion punch'. Then i wanted to be able to do some dmg so link it with an HA. Punch. So evertime he punches the target is drained of some end and stun. He basically he has the comic book style. Since this is fantasy look at a fantasy fight. Apollo fights Ivan every time Ivan would hit Apollo, not only did it hurt him it seemed like it would tire him out. I could see how this could be abused with advantages. AP, or Auto Fire. I'm fairly straight forward on this. He hits you, you know it and you dont want to be hit again. At one point i thought a damage shield on the punch, but that wasn't quite what I wanted it to do.

[dsatow]

4 hours ago, Jazzidemus said:

Now I thought straight out just an end drain with the sfx 'exhaustion punch'. Then i wanted to be able to do some dmg so link it with an HA. Punch. So evertime he punches the target is drained of some end and stun. He basically he has the comic book style. Since this is fantasy look at a fantasy fight. Apollo fights Ivan every time Ivan would hit Apollo, not only did it hurt him it seemed like it would tire him out. I could see how this could be abused with advantages. AP, or Auto Fire. I'm fairly straight forward on this. He hits you, you know it and you dont want to be hit again. At one point i thought a damage shield on the punch, but that wasn't quite what I wanted it to do.

 

So yes, you can combine the drain attack with your punch.  If the drain occurs every time you use the HA, then you can link the drain to the HA.  Depending on the options in link, you may or may not be able to use the HA without the linked drain.  Or you can use combined attack (assuming your GM agrees its a combined attack and not a multiple attack) and just use the two independent powers together.

 

Note: This assumes that the GM is okay with this.  Some GMs will see the combo and add the two active points together and say its out of the range of the power level of the game.  However, most GMs will allow a small amount of additive damage from a combined or linked attack.

 

Example: A GM might have a problem in a 12d6 game with an  3d6 RKA AP with a 10d6 AoE 16mR explosion defined as a missile versus a 12d6 EB with 1d6 Entangle defined as a ice blast.

 

Personally, I have fast villains which drain REC on each hit.  Not a lot, but about 2d6 Drain's worth.  After about a turn of being punched, the PC is down about ((7x6)/2) 21 Rec which begins to wear on the PC.

[Jazzidemus]

22 hours ago, dsatow said:

Personally, I have fast villains which drain REC on each hit.  Not a lot, but about 2d6 Drain's worth.  After about a turn of being punched, the PC is down about ((7x6)/2) 21 Rec which begins to wear on the PC.

That's what I was thinking of. Nothing huge, 2 or 3d6 at most.

[Hugh Neilson]

On 1/24/2018 at 8:58 AM, Greywind said:

There was also no explicit rule stating that you could, either.

 

There is no explicit rule permitting a character to gain altitude by running up a flight of stairs, either.  Should all players wanting their characters to be capable of running up stairs (rather than requiring a Climbing skill roll, and reduction to Climbing speed and CV) be required to buy an advantage on their Running?  Being a generous GM, I allow them to climb stairs without even a Power Skill roll.  I guess I am way too soft, allowing things the rules do not explicitly state are permitted.  Or maybe I am a malicious GM in that I would consider reducing Running SPD as a character climbs 20 stories of stairs when there is no reduction explicitly provided by the rules.

 

On 1/24/2018 at 1:33 PM, RDU Neil said:

 

Has this "always" been legal, or only since 5th Edition, because I've played since 1st Edition b&w and no one has ever done this, ever, in any game. How does that work? Everybody in your games is EB and Flashing with every attack? Punching and Kicking a the same time, every time? That seems ridiculously overpowered to me.

 

My understanding is that the authors considered this to be allowed from 1st Ed, and to be so obvious it went without saying.  The Great Linked Debate shows the latter was not correct. 

 

As to "ridiculously overpowered", if one cannot use two or more powers as a single attack, what is the benefit of buying a 12d6 Blast, a 6d6, 6 DEF Entangle and a 12d6 Flash as separate powers (180 points) rather than a Swiss Army Multipower (78 points)?  Isn't saving 102 points (a 56 2/3% discount) for no restriction on the use of those attacks ridiculously overpowered?  For that matter, what possible benefit would there be in taking those as flexible slots (96 points) rather than Fixed slots and spending an extra 23% if you can't use that to fire a 10d6 Blast + 2d6 Flash?

 

Given the premise that spending more points provides more options, perhaps the authors were not so far off believing this was pretty obvious (especially when the rules were 64 or 80 pages and did not seek to define every minute detail).

[Watchman Mk. IV]

On 1/28/2018 at 7:09 AM, Hugh Neilson said:

 

There is no explicit rule permitting a character to gain altitude by running up a flight of stairs, either.  Should all players wanting their characters to be capable of running up stairs (rather than requiring a Climbing skill roll, and reduction to Climbing speed and CV) be required to buy an advantage on their Running?  Being a generous GM, I allow them to climb stairs without even a Power Skill roll.  I guess I am way too soft, allowing things the rules do not explicitly state are permitted.  Or maybe I am a malicious GM in that I would consider reducing Running SPD as a character climbs 20 stories of stairs when there is no reduction explicitly provided by the rules.

 

 

My understanding is that the authors considered this to be allowed from 1st Ed, and to be so obvious it went without saying.  The Great Linked Debate shows the latter was not correct. 

 

As to "ridiculously overpowered", if one cannot use two or more powers as a single attack, what is the benefit of buying a 12d6 Blast, a 6d6, 6 DEF Entangle and a 12d6 Flash as separate powers (180 points) rather than a Swiss Army Multipower (78 points)?  Isn't saving 102 points (a 56 2/3% discount) for no restriction on the use of those attacks ridiculously overpowered?  For that matter, what possible benefit would there be in taking those as flexible slots (96 points) rather than Fixed slots and spending an extra 23% if you can't use that to fire a 10d6 Blast + 2d6 Flash?

 

Given the premise that spending more points provides more options, perhaps the authors were not so far off believing this was pretty obvious (especially when the rules were 64 or 80 pages and did not seek to define every minute detail).

 

In that case, I'd rule that the powers can't be used separately, then, unless bought as completely separate powers.  Starburst's EB doesn't get to be used solely as a Flash, or as an EB, so he has to spend the END for both each time he attacks.  (And obviously there'd be two 'to hit' rolls in that scenario.)

[Hyper-Man]

On 1/24/2018 at 12:38 PM, dsatow said:

In fact there is a rule allowing you to use two different attack powers at the same time.  Combined attack 6e2p74.  In 4th ed, I don't think the rule is in the rule book but is adapted from Robotwarriors.

 

It was also in 5er and called Multiple-Power Attack on page 358.

[Hyper-Man]

30 minutes ago, Watchman Mk. IV said:

 

In that case, I'd rule that the powers can't be used separately, then, unless bought as completely separate powers.  Starburst's EB doesn't get to be used solely as a Flash, or as an EB, so he has to spend the END for both each time he attacks.  (And obviously there'd be two 'to hit' rolls in that scenario.)

 

You are describing the Linked Limitation. 

[Watchman Mk. IV]

3 hours ago, Hyper-Man said:

 

You are describing the Linked Limitation. 

 

Mmhmm.  And since separate powers are also separate attacks, they're not allowed in the same phase under the rules.  They're either linked to the attack or they don't happen.

 

And from a game balance point of view, it's ridiculous to let a character blow off every power at once.  Not gonna happen in my game.

[Hyper-Man]

From 6e2 page 74:

 

Combined Attack

Using two or more powers or similar abilities (but not Combat/Martial Maneuvers or the like) once against a single target isn’t a Multiple Attack. It’s a Combined Attack, and counts as type of Strike. Therefore it has no OCV penalty, doesn’t halve the attacker’s DCV, and doesn’t take a Full Phase to perform. (Using two such powers multiple times against a single target, or against multiple targets, is a Multiple Attack and subject to all Multiple Attack rules.)

 

[Hyper-Man]

2 hours ago, Watchman Mk. IV said:

 

Mmhmm.  And since separate powers are also separate attacks, they're not allowed in the same phase under the rules.  They're either linked to the attack or they don't happen.

 

And from a game balance point of view, it's ridiculous to let a character blow off every power at once.  Not gonna happen in my game.

 

What rules do you use?  Can you cite a page number?

[Ninja-Bear]

Never knew that there was a debate about linked. Not surprised mind you. ?

[Hugh Neilson]

15 hours ago, Watchman Mk. IV said:

 

In that case, I'd rule that the powers can't be used separately, then, unless bought as completely separate powers.  Starburst's EB doesn't get to be used solely as a Flash, or as an EB, so he has to spend the END for both each time he attacks.  (And obviously there'd be two 'to hit' rolls in that scenario.)

 

Not sure what edition you would be issuing that ruling under,   but it is neither 6e nor 5e, both of which allow multiple power attacks as noted by HyperMan, using a single roll to hit.

 

The single roll is a pretty minor issue, though - if you roll a 5 first, a single roll will be preferred, but if that first roll comes up 18, a chance for the other half of the attack to hit would be most welcome.

 

12 hours ago, Watchman Mk. IV said:

 

Mmhmm.  And since separate powers are also separate attacks, they're not allowed in the same phase under the rules.  They're either linked to the attack or they don't happen.

 

And from a game balance point of view, it's ridiculous to let a character blow off every power at once.  Not gonna happen in my game.

 

This was the crux of the Great Linked Debate - why does a Limitation create an Advantage not otherwise available?

 

From a game balance point of view, I suggest it is ridiculous that someone who spends 180 points to have 3 separate attack powers (60 points each) gets no benefit whatsoever when compared to someone who spends 78 points to have the same three attack powers in a Multipower of fixed slots.  The second character has everything the first one does, plus 102 more points to spend on other abilities - how is that balanced?

[steriaca]

5 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Not sure what edition you would be issuing that ruling under,   but it is neither 6e nor 5e, both of which allow multiple power attacks as noted by HyperMan, using a single roll to hit.

 

The single roll is a pretty minor issue, though - if you roll a 5 first, a single roll will be preferred, but if that first roll comes up 18, a chance for the other half of the attack to hit would be most welcome.

 

 

This was the crux of the Great Linked Debate - why does a Limitation create an Advantage not otherwise available?

 

From a game balance point of view, I suggest it is ridiculous that someone who spends 180 points to have 3 separate attack powers (60 points each) gets no benefit whatsoever when compared to someone who spends 78 points to have the same three attack powers in a Multipower of fixed slots.  The second character has everything the first one does, plus 102 more points to spend on other abilities - how is that balanced?

It is ballanced out by...

 

1) Having to devide the power points in such a way so that they always equal the Multipower pool of points. This means nothing to a straight up attack based Multipower with all fixed slots, but add Flight and/or Resistant Protection, and we are talking some serious stuff. Want protection of a "force field"? Then you can't fly far or do much damage with your "force blast". Want to do damage? Then you have to lower your "force field" and flight.

 

2) Person who bought all three powers outside the Multipower can use them at full power at all times. Multipower boy has to shift points around some. Also, unless he has enough points in the Multipower to cover it, he can't do a Multiple Attack or a Combined Attack with attacks exclusively in his Multipower. Note: He can Multiple or Combined Attack with a Multipower power and a power outside his Multipower without any extra penitlies.