Negative END and charges

[Tech]

If someone hits 0 END or is drained of END until they have negative END, the rule is that for every 2 END used by the character, they take damage. How do you handle the hero who has other attack powers that are on charges? I'm wondering about seeing heroes fighting without any penalties (or just shrugging it off) because they're relying on powers with charges and thus not using END.

 

I've also wondered about their CV. Let's face it, if you're really tired, your combat skills because less effective both offensively and defensively.

[dsatow]

I have a friend who GM'd that any action constitutes a 1 END cost per phase which if you are out of END means 2 Stun.

 

I personally don't penalize if you're out of END beyond the 1 end = 2 stun rule.  

[Tech]

Don't forget every 2 END spent after 0 End is 1d6 Stun damage (no defense). Otherwise at this moment, neither do I. However, I would find it odd that someone drained of END down to, say, -25 END can just keep fighting like nothing has happened to them by using charges.

[dsatow]

Just now, Tech said:

Don't forget every 2 END spent after 0 End is 1d6 Stun damage (no defense). Otherwise at this moment, neither do I. However, I would find it odd that someone drained of END down to, say, -25 END can just keep fighting like nothing has happened to them by using charges.

 

Sorry, yes you are right.  I meant 1d6 Stun but low sleep and being on call are taking its toll.  I think I was mixing it up with the cost of end in a fuzzy logic sort of way.

[Hugh Neilson]

It's also odd that someone with 1 STUN remaining of 100, or down 9 of 10 BOD, or even at negative BOD, can keep battling on.  But that is a compromise we accept for cinematic reality and ease of gameplay.

 

At 0 END, using END causes STUN.  Powers with no END cost can be used freely. 

 

I don't recall whether it continued in 6e, but older editions did have a rule that use of a combat maneuver (but not a martial maneuver) always cost at least 1 END.  It was rarely used, but that was the rule.

[Surrealone]

5 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

that is a compromise we accept for cinematic reality and ease of gameplay.

I think it's perfectly fine for someone with 1 STUN remaining of 100 ... or down 9 of 10 BOD ... to keep battling on ... given the origins of this particular RPG system (you know, Champions, the super hero roleplaying game) - so-called 'reality' or even 'cinematic reality' be damned.

 

If people playing this game wanted 'reality', they'd find themselves a nice RPG about going to work every day, dealing with annoying bosses and sexually harassing co-workers, etc...

[dmjalund]

maybe if they are at zero END they can still perform an action that only uses charges, but at 0 DCV

 

[Greywind]

4 hours ago, Surrealone said:

If people playing this game wanted 'reality', they'd find themselves a nice RPG about going to work every day, dealing with annoying bosses and sexually harassing co-workers, etc...

 

Isn't that called "Papers and Paychecks"?

[Surrealone]

Heh!

[Hugh Neilson]

On 2/11/2018 at 2:27 PM, Surrealone said:

I think it's perfectly fine for someone with 1 STUN remaining of 100 ... or down 9 of 10 BOD ... to keep battling on ... given the origins of this particular RPG system (you know, Champions, the super hero roleplaying game) - so-called 'reality' or even 'cinematic reality' be damned.

 

Apparently I am too subtle for this crowd.  I don't see "no extra ill effects at 0 END' being any different than "no ill effects for being at a fraction of normal STUN or BOD.

[Greywind]

Every action requires at least 1 End.

[Surrealone]

7 hours ago, Greywind said:

Every action requires at least 1 End.

Not per RAW...

[Greywind]

Cite?

[Armory]

5ER, p39:  "A character who uses a Power, moves, or uses STR expends END."  That sounds to me like it covers any action.  It still takes STR to pull a trigger, for instance, even a hair-trigger.

 

5ER, p425:  "Some Maneuvers and other Actions don't have a listed STR value.  In such cases, a character spends 1 END (unless the GM rules otherwise).  This includes Combat Maneuvers such as Block, Dodge, or firing a weapon.  Martial Maneuvers do not cost END."  That specifically makes an exception for Martial Maneuvers (which I really don't understand).  That seems to imply that everything else does require at least 1 END.  That's the way we've always run our games.

 

 

[Hugh Neilson]

10 hours ago, Greywind said:

Every action requires at least 1 End.

 

2 hours ago, Surrealone said:

Not per RAW...

 

1 hour ago, Greywind said:

Cite?

 

I think a cite would need to be that every action requires END - why would the rules state a negative?

 

I recall older editions where it cost at least one END for any combat maneuver (Armory just posted a 5e cite in that regard), but not for martial maneuvers.

 

Armory's first quote is in 6e (in the description of END), but many powers cost END (would we charge 1 END per phase for using the ability to breathe water, the same minimum END expended by a drowning character who cannot breathe water?) and movement and STR cost END, by default.  I don't think that quote means "you can't do anything without an END cost. 

 

6e p 131 reflects the second quote (largely, but not completely, unchanged), so that one is pretty clear.  Not every action costs END, but most do.

[massey]

Charges cost 0 End to use.  They just do.  It doesn't take "one End" worth of effort to pull a trigger.

 

If the guy with Drain wants to penalize a guy who primarily uses Charges, he should pay for it.

[Hyper-Man]

If the charges are on a firearm with a strength minimum then meeting that minimum to use the weapon without penalty will cost end.

[Hugh Neilson]

10 hours ago, massey said:

Charges cost 0 End to use.  They just do.  It doesn't take "one End" worth of effort to pull a trigger.

 

 

RAW (5e and 6e page references above), it costs a minimum of 1 END to fire a weapon (a specific example of something, along with Block and Dodge, which requires spending 1 END).

 

That's been around for a lot of editions, maybe even from 1e, but I rarely see it enforced.

[Surrealone]

On ‎2‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 8:09 AM, Armory said:

5ER, p39:  "A character who uses a Power, moves, or uses STR expends END."  That sounds to me like it covers any action.  It still takes STR to pull a trigger, for instance, even a hair-trigger.

 

5ER, p425:  "Some Maneuvers and other Actions don't have a listed STR value.  In such cases, a character spends 1 END (unless the GM rules otherwise).  This includes Combat Maneuvers such as Block, Dodge, or firing a weapon.  Martial Maneuvers do not cost END."  That specifically makes an exception for Martial Maneuvers (which I really don't understand).  That seems to imply that everything else does require at least 1 END.  That's the way we've always run our games.

 

 

5er p103 also goes on to say:
"CHANGING A POWER'S ENDURANCE COST: The Reduced Endurance Advantage (p267) can halve a Power's END cost, or reduce it to zero. The Endurance Limitations (page 289) can make a Power cost END even though it normally does not, or increase a Power's END cost. Some Powers have their own special rules for changing their END cost."

 

5er p253 also adds:

"A power that has Charges does not cost END to use."

 

Taken together, you have quoted the base rule of thumb that things cost END ... and I have quoted the modifiers to the base rule -- which can and do modify END cost.  Your quote from 5ER p425 appears to be specific to Maneuvers and Actions that use STR -- which is to say that if a weapon based on Charges doesn't have a STR Minimum, then there's no STR use required to aim, resist recoil, etc. .... and, thus, there should be no END cost unless the Costs Endurance Limitation was taken on the Charge-based weapon.

 

The 6e rules are actually more clear, as they place a number of the above concepts in one place (6e2 p39) rather than scattering them throughout the books -- resulting in a stronger correlation between the base rule of thumb for END costs and the modifiers to those costs that can come into play:

"Powers: Most Powers cost 1 END per 10 Active Points in them. For example, a Blast 8d6 (40 Active Points) costs 4 END each time it’s used; a Blast 8d6, Penetrating (60 Active Points) costs 6 END per use. Some Powers, like Resistant Protection, Clinging, and Mind Link, do not cost END at all. See the individual Power descriptions for information (or the reference table on 6E1 162). Powers that normally cost END may have the Advantage Reduced Endurance (which
reduces the END cost to half or zero) or the Limitation Increased Endurance Cost (which makes them cost more END than normal)."

 

 

[Armory]

I agree in general, Charges don't cost END, but it really depends on the SFX of the Power, doesn't it?  As someone previously mentioned, if my Charges are bullets in a magazine, I still have to pull the trigger, ("...firing a weapon..." from the 5ER p425 quote above) which requires 1 END.  If my charges are hand grenades, I still have to spend 1 END to toss them.

 

 

[Hugh Neilson]

As I see the "1 END minimum" requirement, it is not saying it costs 1 END to use a charge.  It is saying that use of any non-martial combat maneuver costs the END required to use the power to which the maneuver is applied, or 1 END where there is no END cost to use the power (such as charges, Block and Dodge).  The 1 END for firing your 16 charge Blaster Rifle is not paid to use the Blast or KA slot of the Rifle, but to use the Strike maneuver itself in firing the blaster rifle.

 

Similarly, there is no END cost to use STR or movement to Block or Dodge - you spend 1 END to use the maneuver itself.

[Surrealone]

Wow, Hugh that's a really, really good point that I overlooked.  To your point, Strike is, indeed, the basic attack maneuver -- i.e. it's what a character is doing when s/he fires a gun or a bow or uses a blaster or laser eyebeams or what have you.  Thus, such things cost a minimum of 1 END.  Now if the character has a Martial Strike associated with the particular attack (a la gun-fu, bow-fu, blaster-fu, eyebeam-fu, etc.  assuming appropriate Weapon Elements are in play, where needed) ... then it costs no END, since Martial Maneuvers don't cost END.

 

Where this gets interesting is if you have something like a damage shield built around continuing charges.  Used passively, such a damage shield would cost you no END ... since you don't need to attack with it (i.e. no use of Strike, it's just pure use of a power ... to do damage).  Now if you GRABBED someone to use said damage shield, you'd pay a minimum of 1 END for the Grab even if you exerted no STR to hold on ... but as long as you were passive about the damage shield's use, it's a way you could use a charged power at negative END to do damage ... without needing to burn STUN to cover the 1 END cost, as there's no maneuver in use for a passively-used damage shield running on continuing charges.

[Greywind]

Martial Maneuvers require END paid on the STR used. Nice try.

[Lucius]

1 hour ago, Greywind said:

Martial Maneuvers require END paid on the STR used. Nice try.

 

 

Assuming they use STR.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary adds, or assuming the STR is not bought to zero END cost.

[Greywind]

Which still swings back to the minimum 1 End per action.