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Negative END and charges

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1 hour ago, Greywind said:

Martial Maneuvers require END paid on the STR used. Nice try.

But they DO NOT cost END if STR is not used in conjunction with the maneuver (or if the STR that is used costs 0END) ... unlike Strike, which has a 1 END minimum, regardless.

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In the case of a weapon built with a STR Minimum, I’m thinking an argument might be made that it still requires some minimal amount of END to use, even if it uses Charges. I’m thinking of a bow and arrow as an example of this. It seems like it should use some END, even though it is technically using Charges.

 

In the case of a gun, it requires a certain amount of effort to raise it into firing position and aim it.

 

Maybe a minimum of END use is a part of the STR Minimum limitation?

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13 hours ago, Greywind said:

Martial Maneuvers require END paid on the STR used. Nice try.

 

No one is denying there is an END cost to the STR.  There is no minimum 1 END cost to use a martial maneuver.  From 6e V2 p 131:

 

Some Maneuvers and other Actions don’t have a listed STR value. In such cases, a character spends 1 END (unless the GM rules otherwise). This includes Combat Maneuvers such as Block, Dodge, or firing a weapon. Martial Maneuvers do not cost END (but see 6E2 91).

 

From 6e V2 p 91:

 

 

Here’s how the various Martial Maneuvers work. They do not cost END to use, though the character has to pay END for any STR used with them.

 

That means Martial Block and Martial Dodge, for example, do not cost END.  For that matter, a nerve strike costs no END  (it does not use STR) and I could use an offensive strike for 0 END cost as long as I add no STR to the +4d6 provided by the maneuver (not overly practical, although a normal street tough won't last long against a series of 4d6 hits, so they can be effortlessly fought at 0 END).  I could similarly restrict a Martial Throw to the velocity damage adder and effortlessly toss someone to the ground, or Legsweep for 1d6 damage and knock the target prone at 0 END cost.

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Greywind, where is your cite for a minimum 1 END cost per action? 

 

I think 6e V2 p 91 and 131 cover it, and they do not impose a minimum 1 END cost for all actions, only for specific actions (and explicitly NOT martial maneuvers which do not use STR).  Is there something else in the rules that supports your argument?

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3 hours ago, Greywind said:

Why would Martial Dodge be excluded from the 1 min END cost when Dodge itself isn't?

 

Good question.

 

Of course, if you don't like the rule, you can ignore it. Just as if someone doesn't like they rule that Dodge has an END cost, they can ignore that rule.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

If you don't like this palindromedary, you can ignore this tagline

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5 minutes ago, Greywind said:

 

With the Advantage of Reduced END Cost.

Martial Dodge doesn't cost any END, doesn't need any STR use, therefore, doesn't need that advantage on the STR.  So, no, you don't need that advantage.

 

Likewise, if you want to do a Martial Strike ... and you don't add any STR to it, you're going to do 2d6 of damage ... then, per RAW you will pay no END for that 2d6 of output (it since it's a Martial Maneuver) ... and you don't need that advantage to achieve this.

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The increase in effect from basic to Martial is enough to justify the expense.

 

And according to other arguments, your example is wrong based simply on the effect that you've just done a STRIKE maneuver mandating END expenditure.

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1 minute ago, Greywind said:

The increase in effect from basic to Martial is enough to justify the expense.

 

And according to other arguments, your example is wrong based simply on the effect that you've just done a STRIKE maneuver mandating END expenditure.

No, it was a Martial Strike, not a Strike ... and Martial Maneuvers are expressly called out in 5er and 6e RAW (as previously cited in this thread) as not costing END for the maneuver's use.

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If someone hits 0 END or is drained of END until they have negative END, the rule is that for every 2 END used by the character, they take damage. How do you handle the hero who has other attack powers that are on charges?

 

Powers with charges don't take any endurance, so they aren't affected.  but when they reach 0 charges, they cannot be used, no matter what.  Its a trade off.

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5 hours ago, Hyper-Man said:

Who said anything about STR used with MA maneuvers not costing END?

No one.  Greywind seems to be confusing/conflating the minimum END cost associated with the use of a maneuver (for which Martial Maneuvers are exempt per RAW) ... and the STR cost associated with the use of a maneuver.  i.e. He seems not to understand they are two different (but related) things.  

 

Even when I spelled it out by giving an example of a Martial Strike (to which no STR was used/added) doing 2d6 of damage ... costing no END (because it's a Martial Maneuver that, per RAW, is exempt from costing a minimum of 1 end like a regular Strike would), he still didn't get it.  I suspect skimming to be the root cause of the misunderstanding.

 

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So there's a few arguments going on here...

 

All of this is from 6E2 p131

First, if you're using a Standard Maneuver (Dodge, Strike, Block, or firing a weapon) it costs 1 END to use.

Martial Maneuvers cost No END to use (with the exception noted on 6E2 p91 - the base STR used for DMG costs END; discuss with your GM if you can do a 0STR Martial Maneuver, but it's book legal)

Using Powers costs END at 1 END per 10 Active Points (with the noted exception that in most Heroic Campaigns STR costs 1 END per 5 STR used).

 

Notice how it's very explicit on the "or firing a weapon" - picking up a gun and shooting it costs 1END.

 

Powers that do not cost Endurance to begin with, cost no Endurance ever. You could theoretically use Clinging to hold onto a ceiling indefinitely as long as you use no Movement Powers to go anywhere.

 

A GM and Player can haggle over wether Mighty Eye-Beam's one-shot, one-charge, Overblast Eyebeam counts as 'firing a weapon' all day long, however. That may or may not count as needing 1END to use.

But Billy The Kid firing off the last shot of his six-shooter is clearly 'firing a weapon', and thus he'll need to spend 1 END in one way or another.

 

[These rules are the same in 5E]

 

Now, 4E, Hero System Rulebook (not the BBB) notes on p168:

"Some actions don't have a STR listed. In such cases are Character will spend 1 END" and does not explicitly exclude Martial Maneuvers (that was a 5E addition); thus the concept of "1 Action = 1 END" as noted by Greywind.

 

In 6E this sentence is mostly unchanged, though it adds "unless the GM decides" to the end, and then at the end adds the Martial Maneuver Exception. So, over all you can assume 1 Action = 1 END" to be a good rule of thumb to go by, adjust for situational issues as needed.

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On 2/21/2018 at 9:35 AM, Hugh Neilson said:

 

No one is denying there is an END cost to the STR.  There is no minimum 1 END cost to use a martial maneuver.  From 6e V2 p 131:

 

 

 

 

From 6e V2 p 91:

 

 

 

 

That means Martial Block and Martial Dodge, for example, do not cost END.  For that matter, a nerve strike costs no END  (it does not use STR) and I could use an offensive strike for 0 END cost as long as I add no STR to the +4d6 provided by the maneuver (not overly practical, although a normal street tough won't last long against a series of 4d6 hits, so they can be effortlessly fought at 0 END).  I could similarly restrict a Martial Throw to the velocity damage adder and effortlessly toss someone to the ground, or Legsweep for 1d6 damage and knock the target prone at 0 END cost.

Hugh I believe that martial strikes like HA must use a minimum of 1/2 STR.  ( I claim though I could be wrong and I don’t have 6th)

Edited by Ninja-Bear
Corrected a stupid auto correct error

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Here's how the rules read out:

 

I use the Block Maneuver: 1 END

I use my Martial Block Maneuver: 0 END

 

I use a Haymaker Maneuver with my 50 STR: 6 END

I use a Martial Strike Maneuver with my 50 STR: 5 END

 

Though I honestly doubt most groups ever play it out this way, and don't count the 1 END from Block, and have the 50 STR Haymaker cost 5 END. But that's how the rules actually read.

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