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jujitsuguy

Restrainable overload?

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Team:

Again, with an anti-munchkin question...see the attached...player is trying to claim "restrainable" on ALL of his movement powers...is this valid?

 

image.png.e977f49f389fe2ca107e77ae713b1bf3.png

 

Pretty sure he has to tell me HOW it is restrainable...or can he declare generically ANY form of restraint?

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He has to explain how it's restrainable.  Presumably it would be evident from the SFX of the power, but as they aren't shown here, there's no way to make that call.  If he claims it's restrainable due to the Gestures, the would be double-dipping.

 

Also, did he really buy his characer's base running all the way down to 1m?

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The points on his control cost are way off.  Adding the power to 4 people at once is a +3/4 advantage so his  reserve should be 54 points before reductions. 

 

I agree with Netzilla that the Gestures is double-dipping.

 

As an aside, ask your player if he intended his character to be a humorous one , because watching him fall , trip , and fail to teleport or shift every 10 or so phases will surely be a hot topic for the other players OOC and for the press  in the game. This is a gentle way of reproaching him for being a munchkin.

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1 hour ago, Doc Democracy said:

Adding to 4 people is +3/4 but it drops by +1/2 if the people granted the power "must remain close to the grantor".  

 

Doc

 

That's with the caveat of GM approval. The player doesn't decide that.

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Grailknight, not sure what you mean.  The design of the limitation is in the players hands, the default is that those given powers can go anywhere, this is limiting the advantage and so I don’t understand why the GM might need to approve.  I haven’t seen anything in the book to support this, though as a GM, I would always be careful about allowing the granting of powers.  It has so much potential to unbalance and disrupt.

 

Doc

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12 hours ago, jujitsuguy said:

Team:

Again, with an anti-munchkin question...see the attached...player is trying to claim "restrainable" on ALL of his movement powers...is this valid?

 

image.png.e977f49f389fe2ca107e77ae713b1bf3.png

 

Pretty sure he has to tell me HOW it is restrainable...or can he declare generically ANY form of restraint?

 

I believe that by default, Restrainable means by Grabs and Entangles.

 

Whether that's legitimate to put on something like "Running" where Grabbing or Entangling can be expected to stop the character anyway, is another question. Maybe if you rule that ANY Grab or Entangle will foul it up, even if the character could ordinary break it with Casual STR?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And an unrestrained palindromedary

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You know there are not two but three threads about the same topic...

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/96631-restrainable-overload/

http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/96632-restrainable-overload/

 

and this one.  You should put a note in the others to keep only one of these threads open.

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3 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

Grailknight, not sure what you mean.  The design of the limitation is in the players hands, the default is that those given powers can go anywhere, this is limiting the advantage and so I don’t understand why the GM might need to approve.  I haven’t seen anything in the book to support this, though as a GM, I would always be careful about allowing the granting of powers.  It has so much potential to unbalance and disrupt.

 

Doc

 

It's right there on CC page 119. The chart list the reduction and has as determined by the GM in the same text.

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Re-posting to this thread.  I've also posted a noted in the other two threads to come here.  Now for my other post.

 

Quote

That depends on how he's describing restrainable.  If by grabbing his arms or is in handcuffs, he can't run, that would be restrainable.  If he's entangled and can't teleport, that would be a limitation.
 
Basically, the rule of thumb is "If it doesn't limit the character, its not a limitation."  But a corollary to that is, "If its already limited by the rules in the cost of the powers, you don't get points for the limitation."
Running using your legs is a natural limitation of the power running.  So, no, you don't get a limitation by saying you have to move your legs. 

 

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1 minute ago, Grailknight said:

 

It's right there on CC page 119. The chart list the reduction and has as determined by the GM in the same text.

will go look in CC, I use 6th edition by default. Will compare...:-)

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I just like to note that part of the confusion is he's may be taking a multipower control limitation on the slots.  If the limitation only applies to how he controls the multipower, its a MP only limitation, he doesn't get the discount on the slot.  Its a minor difference but important for example, the activation roll.  Is it just him rolling once, or does each user have to roll?

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Now there is a good question.


If I buy a power that has a 14- activation roll and requires gestures that multiple people can use simultaneously, do they all need to make the roll and all need to make the gestures?


My instinct is to say yes...which makes the movement activation even more of an issue...

 

Doc

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Through this and all the related threads about this players builds it seems pretty clear they are focusing on maximum efficiency of points. A GL like character was mentioned. Is this a superhero game?  I think asking the player what type of hero they want to play is much more important than how its built. You can certainly point out the ridiculous overlapping limitations too but I think getting their head out of mechanic-space and into describing their character in plain English is needed. It almost seems like they have a copy of hero designer but no rulebook.

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The player might also benefit from a conversation about Complications/Disadvantages and Limitations and how they are all instructions for the GM on the types of challenges they want to sometimes face when playing a character. Classic example is Superman. In RPG terms the player understands kryptonite will virtually shut them down just like threatening Lois with a deathtrap is guaranteed to provide a distraction to allow a villain to escape. 

 

:)

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What is the special effect of the usable by others?  Special effect is everything and if the special effect does not match up with the powers they should not be allowed.  In my games if the player cannot tell me how a power or a power modifier works they are not allowed it.  Now somethings don’t really require all that much explanation, but something like this would.  So if the player wants to buy some extra running I don’t question it.  On the other hand if someone wants to be able to fly or teleport they need an explanation of how they do it. 

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Yeah, it's hard to even have a conversation about what's going on here without knowing a bit about the character. This might end up being a really cool and non-munchkin thing depending on what the heck else is going on.  From the look of it, it's some kind of group travel spell multipower, with Gestures for the caster and  Restrainable for the recipients.

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Sooo... movement powers with Usable by Others, Must Remain Close to Grantor.  Meaning the recipient must remain within 10m of the Grantor to use the power.

 

Is everybody going to hold their actions until the person with the lowest DEX/SPD goes, before anybody moves, so they can all move at the same time?  Because otherwise, as soon as the Grantor runs his 26m, flies 25m or whatever, everybody else immediately loses the power since they're no longer within 10m of him.  And if they move first and go more than 10m from him, poof, it's gone.  This is especially true of the Megascale teleport and x-dim movements -- the Grantor would have to go dead last to avoid leaving anybody behind. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, BoloOfEarth said:

Sooo... movement powers with Usable by Others, Must Remain Close to Grantor.  Meaning the recipient must remain within 10m of the Grantor to use the power.

 

Is everybody going to hold their actions until the person with the lowest DEX/SPD goes, before anybody moves, so they can all move at the same time?  Because otherwise, as soon as the Grantor runs his 26m, flies 25m or whatever, everybody else immediately loses the power since they're no longer within 10m of him.  And if they move first and go more than 10m from him, poof, it's gone.  This is especially true of the Megascale teleport and x-dim movements -- the Grantor would have to go dead last to avoid leaving anybody behind. 

 

 

 

That's if they get to move: see http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/96640-requires-a-roll-on-multipower/

Basically, the user needs to make his roll to start the multipower and then each target needs to roll to see if they can activate it too.

 

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Also, regarding the Megascale Teleport -- I hope he also has a Megascale Clairsentience to see where he's teleporting.  (See Teleportation Sense in the Champions Powers book.)  Otherwise, it's a Blind Teleport... with all the fun that entails.  (And it better have Usable by Others Simultaneously, or his teammates won't be able to see where they're going either.)  Either that, or Fixed Locations all over the place.  (And if so, remember those also need to be UBO or bought by the teammates.) 

 

On the Extra-Dimensional Movement, I'm guessing the "Single Dimension, Any Location" is the game world itself, with the plan to use the "Any Dimension, One Location" X-Dim move to go to a "safe room" in one of various dimensions, and then from there X-Dim move to wherever on Earth they want to go.  (A combo escape hatch and megascale movement.)  If so, I hope they have Dimensional on that Megascale Clairsentience.  Just because you have Megascale or Any Location on a movement power, doesn't mean you can safely go to a specific location you can't see, especially for free.

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On 2/1/2018 at 12:52 AM, jujitsuguy said:

Team:

Again, with an anti-munchkin question...see the attached...player is trying to claim "restrainable" on ALL of his movement powers...is this valid?

 

image.png.e977f49f389fe2ca107e77ae713b1bf3.png

 

Pretty sure he has to tell me HOW it is restrainable...or can he declare generically ANY form of restraint?

for me the Gestures and restrainable are pretty much the same thing
so 1 has to go
running is legs

flight flapping arms or striding(ala Magneto) into the air

first I would make the player buy 10m first for teleport as there is nothing in the rules about using fractions for distance
so it is 1 trillion km or 100,000,000 km
you cannot do 0.8 trillion km
sfx would be tearing a hole in time/space and stepping through(also works for EDM)
 

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12 hours ago, Beast said:

first I would make the player buy 10m first for teleport as there is nothing in the rules about using fractions for distance

so it is 1 trillion km or 100,000,000 km
you cannot do 0.8 trillion km

 

Actually, technically, you can.  Per 6E1:340:

Quote

The amount of MegaScale a character buys defines the upper limit of the scale of his power. He can vary the scale of the power from use to use, ranging from 1m = 1m up to 1m = the maximum distance he bought MegaScale for (varying the scale is part of activating/using the power, it doesn’t take any extra time or Actions).

 

So he could say, "I'm using 1m = 0.8249621386 trillion km as the scale for this Teleport" if he wants, and go 824,962,138.6 km. 

 

As GM, I would keep in mind that Megascale movement is automatically Noncombat (6E1:341) and a Noncombat Teleport requires an extra Phase (6E1:300).

 

And as long as I'm quoting rules, I should point out the following, under Restrainable on 6E1:393:

Quote

Characters should use common and dramatic sense when applying Restrainable to abilities. Not every ability that can literally be “restrained” in some way is entitled to take this Limitation. For example, just because it’s possible to hold someone’s jaw shut doesn’t mean that every speech-based Skill and ability should have Restrainable, and just because a character’s legs can be Grabbed doesn’t mean that every character can apply Restrainable to his Running. If necessary, the GM can forbid any use of this Limitation which seems unbalancing, undeserved, or absurd.

 

That said, I could see a Green Lantern type character creating, say, cosmic Segways to carry his friends around, and these could be Restrainable.  Or cosmic wings to carry friends aloft, which would also be Restrainable.  Or a cosmic rocketpack to scoot them along at high velocity (with hand controls that could be Restrained).  But yeah, I wouldn't also allow Gestures as well.  And I'd be interested to know the special effects of the Teleportation or the Extra-Dimensional Movement, and how they're able to be restrained by a grab.

 

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2 hours ago, BoloOfEarth said:

 

Actually, technically, you can.  Per 6E1:340:

 

So he could say, "I'm using 1m = 0.8249621386 trillion km as the scale for this Teleport" if he wants, and go 824,962,138.6 km. 

 

 

 

For me that breaks megascale ,as it could also be done to any movement power and is a cheesy munchkin build
Megascale for me was never to be that accurate
And the scaling for me was implied as whole numbers

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