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Black Panther with spoilers


Bazza
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Saw that one coming.

 

For what it's worth Daniel, I think you gave him every chance to say "Sorry, that wasn't what I meant", or at least absent himself from the boards until he cooled down. But he just wouldn't back down, not even a inch.

 

What happened as a result was his own fault.

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6 minutes ago, Starlord said:

So....

 

Who thought M'baku's vegetarian joke was awesomely awesome? :)

 

I laughed so hard at that, and realizing that the overall movie version of M'baku was such a genius interpretation of "Man Ape"... wow. To see that Coogler didn't just ignore the stereotypical character from the comics, and instead reinvented him as such an interesting, badass and hilarious foil for T'Challa was one of those great moments in a movie full of them.

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Back to the core topic,  the trailer makes this movie look so awesome,  I expect it to be on par with Civil War.  Everything in it looks action packed. 

 

One thing I am worried about is Marvel has been taking a deliberately optimistic approach to their movies up until Winter Soldier,  then Civil War. I keep hearing from others that this one has a different tone and I hope this movie will not continue that pessimistic view. While I love the MCU as a whole, I would hate to see it go the way of DC and get filled with super serious characters. 

 

I know everyone hates the Marvel Villains for being shallow or two dimensional.  But that allows the director the time to develop the heroes and let's us see them in all their awesome. 

 

PS: Not knocking DC, I think Wonder Woman did a lot to bring the DC tone back to something I could enjoy. But to me MCU is simply superior. 

 

 

 

PPS: I think Civil War,  Home Coming, Ironman, Avengers 1, and Guardians 1 where the most enjoyable.  While Thor 1 & 2, Ironman 2, Ironman 3, and The Incredible Hulk are at the bottom to me.  The others were great and enjoyable.  Doctor Strange I bounce between okay and love it.  But I cannot put my finger on why. 

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I agree with you on Civil War -- it was a different take, and one that didn't really jibe with me. Winter Soldier was darker, but not in the same way - I liked it a LOT more than Civil War.

 

IMO, Black Panther is different from Civil War or Winter Soldier.  It doesn't shy away from some pretty deep subject matter, but it handles it extremely well.  It's still decidedly a comic book movie and has a villain that is...understandable.  Given enough depth to make him interesting, believable, and even (to an extent) sympathetic.

 

There is still a two dimensional villain...but that's left to one of the Tolkien white guys to play ;)

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8 minutes ago, Simon said:

There is still a two dimensional villain...but that's left to one of the Tolkien white guys to play ;)

Heh... good line.

 

I personally like the darker toned movies. I like serious action, with real life ramifications, and Winter Soldier and Civil War presented those amazingly well. The affects of "super violence", the ramifications on society of people with powers doing their thing... I love that stuff. I really like Black Panther because it essentially asked questions of a similar vein... what is the responsibility of super people (or in this case, a super nation) to actually affect change, to address historical wrongs of their own and others, to challenge the status quo. I never expect the MCU to dig too deeply into these the way I wish comics would and could, but at least they are addressing these logical extrapolations, like good SF should.

 

Good stuff. Seeing it again, tomorrow.

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2 hours ago, Bazza said:

And I want to go to Wakanda's Institute of Technology and study biotechnology. My thesis will be on Vibranium skeletons & rapid healing. 

 

Don't know if you read Ms. Marvel, but they basically did this bit with Kamala's childhood friend and supporting cast super-genius... he got a scholarship to study in Wakanda. It was a great little sub-plot that played out the classic "high school hot shot gets to college and finds he isn't the top of the class anymore" trope in a funny way.  Recommended reading, if you aren't into it already.

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2 minutes ago, RDU Neil said:

 

Don't know if you read Ms. Marvel, but they basically did this bit with Kamala's childhood friend and supporting cast super-genius... he got a scholarship to study in Wakanda. It was a great little sub-plot that played out the classic "high school hot shot gets to college and finds he isn't the top of the class anymore" trope in a funny way.  Recommended reading, if you aren't into it already.

 

Which issues? 

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Took the boys to see this film today.  Honestly I'm not sure what I was expecting, having made a concerted effort to avoid any trailers, but I was surprised at how slowly it seemed to move.  Regardless, it had an excellent character-driven, thought-provoking plot, delivered by an outstanding cast that all brought their A game.  I was especially impressed by Michael B. Jordan's villain, who remained villainous while also being completely understandable and not entirely wrong.

 

It's really weird to actually see Andy Serkis' face for once.

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7 hours ago, Old Man said:

 

Took the boys to see this film today.  Honestly I'm not sure what I was expecting, having made a concerted effort to avoid any trailers, but I was surprised at how slowly it seemed to move.  Regardless, it had an excellent character-driven, thought-provoking plot, delivered by an outstanding cast that all brought their A game.  I was especially impressed by Michael B. Jordan's villain, who remained villainous while also being completely understandable and not entirely wrong.

 

It's really weird to actually see Andy Serkis' face for once.

Killmonger is one of those villains who's "so right he's wrong" -- he sees a genuine problem (massive oppression of a particular class of people) and seeks to apply a terrible solution (ignite a global race war that would kill billions and leave the planet in ruins). In a sense he's reminiscent of Magneto, with his response to the hatred of mutants -- putting him in elite company among Marvel villains.

 

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Saw it last night.  Enjoyed it, better than some Marvel movies, not as good as other Marvel movies (at least, IMO).  Some truly laugh-out-loud moments, some thought-provoking stuff (without being overbearing and anvil-icious, again IMO).

 

Excellent work by the actors involved, on both sides of the fence (heroes and villains).  Andy Serkis chewed up the screen in every scene he was in, and Michael B. Jordan did a great job as Killmonger.  Absolutely loved Letitia Wright as Shuri - she stole practically every scene she was in, at least to me.  I can guarantee she will be my oldest daughter's favorite character in the movie.

 

It was slower than other superhero movies, but not in a bad way.  It had a fair amount of exposition to get through (particularly about Wakanda's past / development) without viewers' questions feeling handwaved away.

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7 hours ago, Michael Hopcroft said:

Killmonger is one of those villains who's "so right he's wrong" -- he sees a genuine problem (massive oppression of a particular class of people) and seeks to apply a terrible solution (ignite a global race war that would kill billions and leave the planet in ruins). In a sense he's reminiscent of Magneto, with his response to the hatred of mutants -- putting him in elite company among Marvel villains.

 

I hadn't thought of it in these specific terms, but you're right. The parallels to Magneto are strong--and probably done better than in any of the X-Movies.

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I saw Black Panther over the weekend and really enjoyed it. More than that, I found it really thought-provoking. Yeah, there's some material in there that's a little foreign to a while kid who grew up on the plains. That's not a bad thing.

 

I'd agree with the general sentiment that Killmonger is the most complex of the Marvel villains presented so far. He's amiable enough, in his way, and he's certainly passionate and articulate about his cause. You can't help but want to be sympathetic to him, based on what he's been through. But he's got WAY too much blood on his hands. It would have been nice to see him develop in further films--maybe even gain a measure of redemption, move from genocidal maniac to well-intentioned extremist, as we've seen done with Magneto so many times. But it wouldn't have worked with the character. It would've felt like a cop-out had he survived. He blazed a trail for death or glory--anything else would have been disappointing.

 

Also, I loved the aesthetic of the film. The combination of African tribal and near-future sci-fi was amazing.

 

All in all, it was a great film.

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For what it is worth, I found Killmonger one-dimensional and unsympathic as a character. He has a chip on his shoulder, feels entitled, and wants to fund terrorist insurgents on a worldwide basis (a "black jihad"). 

 

For me Wakanda made the right choice, a MLKJr type of person over a Black Panther Party type of person. 

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I enjoyed the movie, but I have a big gripe about the decision to "come out" to the world. Look at all the trouble just one "outsider" caused. The lesson learned should have been...." This is why we need to stay secret...the outside world is corrupt. No matter our intentions...our tech can and WILL be used in negative way". The movie just hand waves that in favor of a "positive" ending.  Granted, we all know the real reason for the Wakanda reveal is so that they can play a pivotal role in Infinity War, but the conclusion of the movie as presented just flies in the face of common sense.

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16 minutes ago, Dr. MID-Nite said:

I enjoyed the movie, but I have a big gripe about the decision to "come out" to the world. Look at all the trouble just one "outsider" caused. The lesson learned should have been...." This is why we need to stay secret...the outside world is corrupt. No matter our intentions...our tech can and WILL be used in negative way". The movie just hand waves that in favor of a "positive" ending.  Granted, we all know the real reason for the Wakanda reveal is so that they can play a pivotal role in Infinity War, but the conclusion of the movie as presented just flies in the face of common sense.

 

That thinking in a more conservative and nationalist viewpoint . There a good and valid reasons to think this way but the message of the movie is more optimistic . That message to me is that globalism is the way of the future. It portends a world where tech will be shared for the betterment of man. Yes there will always be people who misuse it, but think about the world the MCU could be if all the super-tech was available to the public.

     

Stark has effectively created a near infinite energy source and has tested it to the point it passes mil-spec standards so it will be as safe as anything being used today, Wakanda  has advanced medicine and computer tech, Pym has created the ability to tame the insect world (and his size changing  tech is probably the most world breaking while also being the most dangerous IMO).

Using the engines they build for the heli-carrier with materials science from these alone would get us into space and open up the resources of the solar system. Orbital elevators, solar power stations and even Gundam-style space colonies would be the norm in a hundred years assuming we could cooperate rather than falling back on the same old self-destructive infighting.

 

I want a positive future even if I'm not around to see it and I certainly want my superhero fantasy to be positive.

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2 hours ago, Bazza said:

For what it is worth, I found Killmonger one-dimensional and unsympathic as a character. He has a chip on his shoulder, feels entitled, and wants to fund terrorist insurgents on a worldwide basis (a "black jihad").

 

Oddly enough I found Killmonger to be the best MCU villain so far (behind Magneto), because he is almost the protagonist.  He is certainly wrong in his methods, but he is not wrong to believe what he believes given his circumstances.

 

2 hours ago, Bazza said:

 

For me Wakanda made the right choice, a MLKJr type of person over a Black Panther Party type of person. 

 

Definitely.  But at the same time, the MLKJr type of person came around to the Black Panther Party person's viewpoint, differing only in execution.

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1 hour ago, Old Man said:

 

Oddly enough I found Killmonger to be the best MCU villain so far (behind Magneto), because he is almost the protagonist.  He is certainly wrong in his methods, but he is not wrong to believe what he believes given his circumstances.

 

 

Definitely.  But at the same time, the MLKJr type of person came around to the Black Panther Party person's viewpoint, differing only in execution.

 

1st paragraph:  Fair enough. 

 

2nd paragraph: Agreed. 

 

(Typing on phone)

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