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Black Panther with spoilers


Bazza
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Addressing RDU Neil's post preceding this one as this one is on another page. 

 

A few points: 

#1) The time line for Dr Strange is about 18 months to 2 years if memory serves, so Strange didn't just take "5 mins".

 

My interpretation of the whole film if that they showed key scenes and for the audience to fill in the blanks. 

 

#2) The studio didn't want to do the old Asian guy as that is a stereotype and they wanted to move away from that. Meaning they were conscious of this. The studio hit upon the idea that "Ancient One" is a title passed down by the leader of the sanctuary. They cast Tilda in the role in as the opposite of the stereotype. Instead of an old Asian man, we have a Caucasian woman. 

 

#3 Can you or another member of this forum give reasons why the "mysteries of the East" is dated and racist. I ask because the story is historical with examples like Marco Polo, The Beatles (and members of The Beach Boys). Also the last book I read was on Pythagoras & the Greek Mysteries, which Pythagoras learnt from Egyptian priests, the Magi, Jews, the Chaldeans, and possibly the Hindus as well. I also came across yesterday the the founder of the Shaolin monestry may have come from a Greek background*. So I'm curious why the Orient would not hold some kind of mystique for Occidental Caucasians. 

 

*Broughton, Jeffrey L. (1999), The Bodhidharma Anthology: The Earliest Records of Zen, Berkeley: University of California Press, ISBN 0-520-21972-4. pp. 54-55. (From Wikipedia, need to check & confirm this tomorrow). 

 

 

 

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The mysteries of the East thing, I phrased that poorly. The "mysteries" not being as much the racist part as the "white savior" who is better at those mysteries than all the originals... The Shadow, Batman, Iron Fist, Doctor Strange... all examples of white men learning from the "noble savage" and thereafter being the only one given agency to enact change.

 

That said, the "mysteries of east" and the general "exotification" of non-white cultures is part and parcel with general attitude of "stereotypical magical THEM" vs. "us." It also very much has a history of "what mysterious resource can be exploited for the betterment of western societies and furthering of white western traditions" rather than an acceptance and understanding of the different cultures and practices as valuable in and of themselves, not as something to be piecemealed and assimilated. Part of the whole "cultural appropriation" continuum. Take their things and ideas for your own gain, but not value the people or a culture as a whole.

 

Any even if it was 2 years... I'm pretty sure Wong had grown up in the sanctuary and been studying for a lifetime, but no, Strange is quickly making a fool out of the goofy side-kick very early on in that training. Yes, the audience can fill in the blanks, but it is a horrible trope, either way.

 

Your #2 is exactly what Matt the Bruin was commenting on, as did I. Yes, they tried to adapt the problematic, outdated character, and it didn't work out.

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7 hours ago, RDU Neil said:

It is in this setting that not only KEEPING the white savior aspect, but then further undermining it all by white washing the Ancient One from the source material, just added insult to injury. It didn't help that Swinton seemed to be tone deaf to the whole concept as well.

 

Well, I suppose already having signed a contract Swinton couldn't just say "Oops, hiring me is a really problematic way to go!" And she's made a career out of defying conventions and taking on roles that people wouldn't have thought her suitable for. I do think she gave a very powerful and nuanced performance (the best in the film, actually), and if I were unaware of the source material's history I would have been absolutely thrilled. But the filmmakers themselves had very little leeway from me on this issue, and Cargill's condescending "LISTEN UP, SJW DUMBASSES!" delivery in his lecture about knuckling under to Chinese disapproval of all things Tibet got on my last nerve.

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On 2/20/2018 at 5:41 PM, Bazza said:

For what it is worth, I found Killmonger one-dimensional and unsympathic as a character. He has a chip on his shoulder, feels entitled, and wants to fund terrorist insurgents on a worldwide basis (a "black jihad"). 

 

For me Wakanda made the right choice, a MLKJr type of person over a Black Panther Party type of person. 

I think you are mistaken about the goals of the Black Panther Party as it was originally constructed.  They wanted to be left alone to be black and prosper on their own terms without the constant oppression of the white society that surrounded them.  They started carrying guns so they could make it clear that they were ready to shoot back. Not to start shooting, but to shoot back rather than run around getting shot anymore.  They arranged for food and clothing drives, after school reading programs, neighborhood improvement projects, classes in mediation and non-violent conflict resolution for gang members.  They were trying to build Wakanda in Oakland, and the FBI created such an effective smear campaign that everyone remembers it the other way around.

 

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1 hour ago, BoneDaddy said:

I think you are mistaken about the goals of the Black Panther Party as it was originally constructed.  They wanted to be left alone to be black and prosper on their own terms without the constant oppression of the white society that surrounded them.  They started carrying guns so they could make it clear that they were ready to shoot back. Not to start shooting, but to shoot back rather than run around getting shot anymore.  They arranged for food and clothing drives, after school reading programs, neighborhood improvement projects, classes in mediation and non-violent conflict resolution for gang members.  They were trying to build Wakanda in Oakland, and the FBI created such an effective smear campaign that everyone remembers it the other way around.

 

 

Cheers. While reading it sounded a bit like a 60s Black Lives Matter. 

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The food-porn site Tasty offers this rather complicated recipe for Wakandan Jeweled Vegetable Pilau with Berbere Braised Lamb.

 

The fictional Wakanda's wealth and prime agricultural lands mean that they are capable of a rich, diverse cuisine. The dish, however, is real and based on a combination of East African food cultures.

 

You won't see a McDonald's in Wakanda.

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https://editorial.rottentomatoes.com/article/box-office-black-panther-rules-oscar-weekend-nearing-900m-global/

 

It has been interesting to talk to non-comic geek or tangentially at best. My parents, both in their late 70s, didn't just see it, they really enjoyed it. Several people at the office who have kids and other such responsibilities, have now been getting around to seeing it, and really liking it. Kids are asking their parents to see it, and parents are asking about age ranges, etc. (We had the conversation with a friend of mine, whose daughter at seven was asking to see it, and it was the very first time she'd ever specifically asked about seeing a particular movie, and he was psyched to get to take her.)

 

That this film can actually ask hard social questions, do amazing comic book world building, have an all-star cast of actors bringing their A-game, and work as a mature, but accessible kids flick, while appealing to people who aren't following the Marvel universe... I'd say this movie is a reflection of a particular zeitgeist I'd never really expected to see in my lifetime. Such things don't last long in this day and age, but I'll enjoy it while it lasts.

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Even adjusted for inflation to compare to earlier movies, having done so this fast is a very impressive feat.

 

Only real speculation now is how high on the all-time box-office list it will ultimately climb to.

 

And can we just take a moment to contemplate how far comic-book movies have come over the last twenty years?

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I thought this movie was very well done and definitely deserves to be ranked up there among the best of the MCU films. But, as others have mentioned, it isn't perfect.

 

I agree that Killmonger was too easily accepted as king; the fact that Wakanda's laws allowed for him to take the throne by simply goading the sitting king into accepting a challenge shows just how fragile and perhaps outdated their system of government truly is. But perhaps this was meant to show how fragile any culturally-isolated monarchy would be in the modern world?

 

I also didn't care for W'kabi's attitude towards T'Challa when he failed to bring in Klaue. You'd think he would understand that complex covert operations, conducted within the borders of distant sovereign nations do not always go as planned. Rather than see T'Challa's failure as nothing more than a failure of mission execution, he chose to see it as some sort of ideological betrayal ("I thought you would be different. But it is just the same thing.") That's just lazy Hollywood writing IMO, shoe-horning a wedge between close friends just to lay the (unearned) dramatic groundwork for the Wakandan civil uprising that needed to happen in the third act.

 

I also kinda wish Nakia wouldn't have repeatedly stressed that she was "just a spy" when she clearly had extensive combat training, including the expert use of those Tron identity discs (hey, now we know who invented those for the MCP!).

 

But the merits of the film vastly overshadow its shortcomings, IMO. The bad CGI Panther-action animation throughout the movie was par for the course for Hollywood (they really, really don't know how to do superheroic fighting action while also maintaining a proper sense of mass, inertia, momentum, and speed), but all the other fantastic visuals made up for it. And while I was disappointed to see two really fun and interesting villains killed off (Klaue and Killmonger), that was just par for the course for the MCU and was mitigated by the survival of all the wonderfully badass women in the film (including Shuri who was badass in her own, adorable Q-like way).

 

I can see how some people might feel that the movie's "message" was a bit heavy-handed, but I didn't feel that way. I felt it delivered its message of optimism and duty (to those who desperately need help) with just the right combination of eloquence and urgency. I am absolutely on T'Challa's side when it comes to his new mission to show the world how to reject disunity, and to step up and help all of humanity. Let's just hope the other tribes remain on board with his vision for Wakanda's future.

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7 hours ago, zslane said:

I also didn't care for W'kabi's attitude towards T'Challa when he failed to bring in Klaue. You'd think he would understand that complex covert operations, conducted within the borders of distant sovereign nations do not always go as planned. Rather than see T'Challa's failure as nothing more than a failure of mission execution, he chose to see it as some sort of ideological betrayal ("I thought you would be different. But it is just the same thing.") That's just lazy Hollywood writing IMO, shoe-horning a wedge between close friends just to lay the (unearned) dramatic groundwork for the Wakandan civil uprising that needed to happen in the third act.

 

That kinda bothered me too the first time I saw it.  But they did establish that Klaue had been dodging Wakandan justice for 20 years or so.  I can see W'kabi just being fed up with empty royal promises, and this was the last straw for him.

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The concept of the battle for supremacy is pretty old and established storyline in the comics, though so whatever sense it makes, that does fit the source material.  I liked how Wakanda was handled in Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes myself, but then almost everything in that show was well done.

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13 hours ago, Armory said:

 

That kinda bothered me too the first time I saw it.  But they did establish that Klaue had been dodging Wakandan justice for 20 years or so.  I can see W'kabi just being fed up with empty royal promises, and this was the last straw for him.

 

Ditto. I also got the impression from W'kabi's remarks that the late King T'chaka hadn't made capturing or killing Klaue a priority. But in this instance the Wakandans knew in advance when and where Klaue was going to be. They sent the Black Panther, their best spy, and their finest warrior to retrieve him. T'challa promised W'kabi personally that he would bring Klaue back. Then had to tell him that they still failed. Again.

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