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Ragitsu

"My wings are like a shield of steel."

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On 3/11/2018 at 3:42 AM, Sean Waters said:

image.png.a91553cc54c947e211de0d45c03ed96f.png

 

First of all, I know that the KBR should not be in a framework, but it seems to fit well and is not unbalancing  so I would seek GM permission.  Anyway, you could activate the Fly and go fast, or the fly and missile deflect and approach more cautiously or the fly and resistant defence and approach even more cautiously (or just stay hovering in the air...).  I might even increase the active points to 60 and reduce the KBR to 10 so you could turn off the flight completely and go full defensive.

 

You could add 'Swan Strike' and use the wings as a weapon - oh so much you could do.

 

I have not added much subtlety because:

1. I'm not sure it is needed and

2. This will be a superhero game, so reality is not necessary

 

I have not included 'restrainable as flight stops if you are grabbed or entangled anyway so it would not apply.

 

Slot 4 has issues besides just being a special power. It's also unnecessary.  Slot 1 can already be used to resist knockback from 1 direction. As built, your framework allows the character to be moving at up to 30m and still have a static 20m kb resistance simultaneously which doesn't appear to match the sfx. Also, 1 real point does not seem an appropriate cost to eliminate the 1/2 dcv imposed by using movement to resist kb.

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2 hours ago, Hyper-Man said:

From 6e2 page 26:

 

Once he’s in position, use the basic “stopping moving objects” rules, above, to determine if he can get a hold on the object and start to slow it down. Typically, a character needs to have an appropriate Movement Power to stop a resisting object — a superhero who lacks Flight usually can’t Grab a flying object and use his STR to slow it down, since he has no way to counter its forward momentum. The GM may waive this rule in appropriate circumstances.

You know scenario where I can see this happing though would be Obsidian leaping and grabbing say Starburst. That ruling would be because Obsidian is so much heavier than what Statburst can lift   Iirc.

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3 hours ago, Hyper-Man said:

 

Slot 4 has issues besides just being a special power. It's also unnecessary.  Slot 1 can already be used to resist knockback from 1 direction. As built, your framework allows the character to be moving at up to 30m and still have a static 20m kb resistance simultaneously which doesn't appear to match the sfx. Also, 1 real point does not seem an appropriate cost to eliminate the 1/2 dcv imposed by using movement to resist kb.

 

Wings can be angled to stabilise the character in flight, or make a sudden change of direction toward the attack.  I can make up explanations all day.  I don;t see how it is imbalancing or why we have the injunction against special powers: we just need GM oversight.

 

Also I'm pretty sure I've seen many characters posted on these boards (or referenced) with MP slots that cost surprisingly little after limitations and  are much more powerful than reducing KB.

 

Also if you look at the notes in the post I'd probably have reduced it to 10m KBR.  Not that the amount should matter as such.

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Part of the problem with grabs stopping movement is that it makes sense in some cases (I grab your legs, you can not run) but not in others (I grab your arms you can not run).  Obviously being grabbed should have an effect but not necessarily stopping you entirely.

 

Even more obvious is the situation where one party has flight.  If you have restrainable wings and they are grabbed, you can not fly, I think we would all agree, but if you have anti-gravity flight, why should, in effect, carrying someone else stop you?

 

I don’t see that you can really do this without making a rules change because the rules are inconsistent.  There are various treatments we could give this, but let us start by reviewing a couple of existing rules:

 

The base rule is that:

 

6.2.64 Typically a Grabbed character cannot use any form of movement to keep moving while Grabbed. He may be able to use his movement to improve his STR to break free (see 6E2 25), but that’s all…

 

and

 

6.2.25 As an optional rule, the GM can allow characters to use their Flight or Leaping to enhance their ability to lift or push. (He can allow them to use other forms of movement in appropriate circumstances; for example, a character who’s underwater might be able to augment his STR with Swimming.) Every 4m of Combat Movement becomes +1 point of STR.

 

Seems a bit stingy to me, but that means 40m of flight is +10 STR for a break out of escape, if you allow this rule.  In fact, because you can only use Casual Strength, that means 40m of flight (which is 30mph) only adds 5 STR.  Hmm.  Anyway.

 

Another problem is that you can use your strength while flying normally to apply the same STR as if you were braced on the ground.  This is a bit wrong, IMO: we really ought to break flight into movement and flight STR, because otherwise there is a clear lacuna in the rules.

 

Here is my proposal.

 

Flight allows you to lift your own weight, and only your own weight (including equipment and small & light handheld items).  Flight differs from most other forms of combat movement in that you have nothing to brace against but your own powers.

 

When flying you can apply additional STR if you pay for it for lifting carrying and throwing.  It costs a +1/4 advantage on your STR (or part of it) to be able to apply that STR while flying for lifting and carrying.  You can still use normal STR for move throughs and such.

 

You can also buy additional STR just for flying :

 

Does not add to normal STR* (-1) and

Only when flying (-1/2)

 

This would make 10 Flight STR cost 3 points.  Buying it as an advantage on STR is more efficient: it would cost 2.  The GM may want to set a limit on the amount of ‘Flight lifting STR’ you can buy, say twice your normal STR, or some other proportion of it, or may rule you can not lift more in the air than you could on the ground, but that is style rather than anything else.

 

To carry a single person when you are flying will cost 2 points, if you have 10 STR.  It is not much but it adds needed granularity and makes the rules consistent.

 

If you are grabbed while flying your casual STR to break out is based on your normal casual STR or your flying casual STR, whichever you like but not both.

 

Also resisting flying KB would be based on Flying STR only.

 

Thoughts?

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I have always ruled, grabbed will only stop movement if the attacker/special effects deem it.  Thus a choke hold doesn't stop movement nor an attacker who grabs a flying hero to get away from an explosion.

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Yeah its important to consider special effects.  Flight typically does not push off anything, but that's not necessarily always the case.  Someone might fly by a column of invisible force pushing them off the ground, or a rocket that keeps them up, pushing constantly, etc.  I wouldn't want to create a rule that removes all exceptions just for one movement type.

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The problem with allowing points to be more efficient if you pick the 'right' SFX is, well, I think the answer is obvious.  There appears to be a repeated issue with the RAW that rules are made for balance rather than consistency or accuracy.  Whilst I appreciate the ridiculousness of either of those things in the context of superheroes it seems to me that the strength of Hero is the ability to build what you like, so we need a mechanic to build this effect: bear in mind that most times a SFX would 'allow' you to keep moving if you are grabbed the same would logically allow you to keep moving if you were entangled but the entangle was not anchored to something solid: do we ignore the rule there too, or change the rules?

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Sean I’m favoring ignoring rules. I’ve just read an old Hawkman comic where he and Hawkgirl where entangled in a net together and eventually they broke free by using their ant-gravity belts. Btw, I can see the same sfx issue with swimming. You grab a swimmer perhaps he should be stopped but if it’s defined as water kinesics, should a grab stop it?

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On 3/12/2018 at 5:58 AM, Hyper-Man said:

From 6e2 page 26:

 

Once he’s in position, use the basic “stopping moving objects” rules, above, to determine if he can get a hold on the object and start to slow it down. Typically, a character needs to have an appropriate Movement Power to stop a resisting object — a superhero who lacks Flight usually can’t Grab a flying object and use his STR to slow it down, since he has no way to counter its forward momentum. The GM may waive this rule in appropriate circumstances.

 

A flying character is also a flying object.

 

Therefore the rule above applies to a flying character as well and no custom or sfx rules are needed.

 

Good grief....

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14 minutes ago, Hyper-Man said:

 

A flying character is also a flying object.

 

Therefore the rule above applies to a flying character as well and no custom or sfx rules are needed.

 

Good grief....

Unfortunately it was explicitly spelled out and you know how some people can be. 😁

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Ninja-Bear, I like your line " The main object of the game is for the players and the GM to have fun. Champions 3rd ed. Pg 130".  This is the rule I've followed when GMing Champions for so long. The RAW may say one thing but if it interferes with the game fun, I override it, so we both agree.

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Believe it or not I'm all in favor of having fun at the game table. This includes making on the fly rulings in the interest of time.  But when it later turns out that the on-the-fly rule wasn't actually needed because there was already a specific case rule that overrides the general rule I try very hard to point it out to everyone for future use.

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Hyperman I like what your saying and agree. For myself though, if a specific rule is more complex than my ruling, I may point it out but still override it. I’ll base that on by weighing the benefit of doing RAW versus House rule. 

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On 3/14/2018 at 9:55 AM, Ninja-Bear said:

Sean I’m favoring ignoring rules. I’ve just read an old Hawkman comic where he and Hawkgirl where entangled in a net together and eventually they broke free by using their ant-gravity belts. Btw, I can see the same sfx issue with swimming. You grab a swimmer perhaps he should be stopped but if it’s defined as water kinesics, should a grab stop it?

 

Apologies but I could not help myself...

 

 

Ant Gravity.jpg

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I believe that there is inconsistency in the rules in the name of 'game balance'.  If two people pay the same for their flight (30m) then they should get the same benefits and effects (or at least balanced ones).

 

I do not like rules that are there for balance.  I would prefer rules that simulate reasonable expectation and if my 800 kg 50m flight 60 STR brick is grabbed by a 100kg no flight 35 STR character standing on the ground, even if the casual breakout roll fails I would not expect the character to come to a dead stop.

 

The problem is that is what the rules say happens.

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23 minutes ago, Sean Waters said:

I believe that there is inconsistency in the rules in the name of 'game balance'.  If two people pay the same for their flight (30m) then they should get the same benefits and effects (or at least balanced ones).

 

I do not like rules that are there for balance.  I would prefer rules that simulate reasonable expectation and if my 800 kg 50m flight 60 STR brick is grabbed by a 100kg no flight 35 STR character standing on the ground, even if the casual breakout roll fails I would not expect the character to come to a dead stop.

 

The problem is that is what the rules say happens.

 

No. The general rule says that grabs stop movement. The specific rule that I have now quoted twice actually agrees with your expectation.

 

Unless you believe characters are not also objects...

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22 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Well considering you can deflect for free (no range) depending on sfx/GM permission, I think the general rule for Grab is odd.

 

I think the general rule is a result of the GURPy nature of the default assumptions. HERO 6e is not supposed to be Champions centric by default. It's supposed to be generic.

 

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On ‎3‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 3:55 AM, Ninja-Bear said:

Sean I’m favoring ignoring rules. I’ve just read an old Hawkman comic where he and Hawkgirl where entangled in a net together and eventually they broke free by using their ant-gravity belts. Btw, I can see the same sfx issue with swimming. You grab a swimmer perhaps he should be stopped but if it’s defined as water kinesics, should a grab stop it?

 

Maybe the Hawks used their Power Skill to convert their Flight power to a different power temporarily - if it is the scene I am recalling, they did not go anywhere until they broke the net.

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23 hours ago, Hyper-Man said:

 

No. The general rule says that grabs stop movement. The specific rule that I have now quoted twice actually agrees with your expectation.

 

Unless you believe characters are not also objects...

 

The specific rule about characters is that a grab or entangle stops them moving (subject to breakout etc).  I don't think the rules treat characters as objects.  For balance.

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When I was thinking about the phrase typically, an example came to mind from Fantasy. Typically a small goblin can grab and hold a barbarian. Atypically, a batabarian can’t stop a dragon by holding his tail.

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1 hour ago, Ninja-Bear said:

When I was thinking about the phrase typically, an example came to mind from Fantasy. Typically a small goblin can grab and hold a barbarian. Atypically, a batabarian can’t stop a dragon by holding his tail.

 

A 20 STR barbarian weighs 100kg and has the same casual STR as a 10 STR goblin that weighs 50kg.

A 40 STR dragon weighs 6400kg and has the same casual STR as a 20 STR barbarian.

 

20 STR is 4x 10 STR.

40 STR is 16x 20 STR.

 

It makes sense that a very lucky goblin could hold a barbarian, at least momentarily.  It makes no sense that a barbarian could stop a dragon, but the rules on casual strength do not take into account the exponential nature of STR in Hero.  They should.

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