[Swords] "Simple and Straightfoward" versus "Curved and Exotic"

[Ragitsu]

Here, we discuss the importance (or lack thereof) of the statistical distinction between swords which possess straight edges (from the English knight's arming sword to the Italian nobleman's edged rapier to the youxia's jian) and swords which possess curved edges (such as the mamluk's kilij, the samurai's katana or the Napoleonic officer's cavalry saber).

 

In my experience, when it comes to tabletop RPGs, there are three ways I see these broad categories of weapons handled ->

 

* No difference. No matter its cultural or historic origin, your choice of sword is purely cosmetic and of little consequence when hard figures are discussed. One common not to mention major exception is the division between "one-handed" and "two-handed" blades.

* Slight difference. Straight swords have a slight advantage while thrusting and possibly where reach is concerned. Curved swords have a slight advantage when cutting and possibly while on horseback.

* Major difference. The GM is, for instance, obsessed with Japanese culture and so has elevated the katana over all other sharped lengths of steel. Alternatively, they're a nouveau Teutophile that is determined to sing the praises of the zweihander whenever European medieval warfare is discussed.

 

How does your campaign - be you GM or player - differentiate between these two groups of combat cutlery and why?

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

In terms of Hero combat, there's very little difference between a falchion and a gladius.  There are notable differences in real life (different designs are good at different tasks, strong in various areas and weaker in others) but those distinctions are very minimal in terms of combat in an RPG. 

 

For example, a curved blade will tend not to catch in a victim and get stuck when slashing, but isn't as good at stabbing.  A straight blade stabs well, but does not chop well.   A big heavy blade chops through hard objects well but does poorly against things like ropes where a slim, light blade excels.  Big heavy weapons are more tiring than light ones, but the light ones are more prone to breaking and further are harder to re-sharpen after battle. 

 

But in Hero terms those distinctions are either not worth the complexity to represent or so minimal they aren't going to show up in the somewhat abstracted combat.

 

Watch some episodes of Forged In Fire on TV (history channel I believe, I watch it On Demand later on), and you can see demonstrations in various tasks and how the different designs perform.

[Zeropoint]

My take on it is that Hero is not fine-grained enough to realistically represent the differences between sword styles in game-mechanical terms. Honestly, I'm not sure a game that finicky would even be fun to play as an RPG. As a stand-alone combat simulator, maybe, along the lines of Toribash, it could be interesting.

[Old Man]

Hero isn't really fine-grained enough for it to make a huge difference.  I might give the saber additional OCV and give the straight sword additional damage (or Penetrating) by comparison.

 

Note that the controversy over slashing vs. stabbing swords was never resolved, even by professionals, right up until swords became obsolete.  British heavy cavalry often modded the tips of their falchion-like swords to have a symmetrical stabbing point, whereas their light cavalry comrades used an aggressively curved blade that was almost impossible to stab with.  Meanwhile French heavy cav used a constant-taper straight blade that was useless for cutting, and French light cav swords, though curved, had a gentler katana-like curve that permitted at least some stabbing.

[Christopher R Taylor]

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 Honestly, I'm not sure a game that finicky would even be fun to play as an RPG.

 

I agree, it would be kind of miserable to have so many stats and mechanics all that really mattered.  I try to play up differences in weapons a bit in game as a GM by color and description, and minor events (good thing you have a hammer, you can bash this) but that's about it.

 

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Note that the controversy over slashing vs. stabbing swords was never resolved, even by professionals

 

I think the cavalry saber probably was the best possible weapon for a mounted light infantry, not facing people with armor.  But as for the rest?  Yeah, its not really settled in any way.  I think they all have their advantages, even some of those really weird weapons like this thing:

 

[Ragitsu]

Hm. Methinks I would have been better served crafting this thread over in "General Roleplaying" . On the other hand, because I did want (and still do want) opinions of those chiefly interested in the fantasy genre of tabletop gaming, I felt that I would receive the most pertinent responses here. That said...there's no reason a GM cannot tweak HERO's rules to accommodate their layman's perception or even fully informed preference* of how something "ought" to work. Because of this, it is possible that at least one HERO player joined a campaign where the baseline rules for "ethnic" weaponry were tweaked to suit their GM's proclivity towards mythologizing otherwise mundane melee weaponry of foreign cultures (or their counterpart equivalents in worlds significantly removed from the template of our Earth).

 

* In other words, "Yes, I know that these stats are larger-than-life. Yes, I know my alteration raises the hackles of HEMA members everywhere. Quite frankly, I do not care. It's a cool sword and i'm making it stand out."

[ghost-angel]

If I were to get into semantics about swords in a game, the long straight blade would add a bit against opponents susceptible to Piercing (stabs), and the curved blades against opponents that slashing attacks worked better against.

 

Otherwise the difference always seems to come down to a bunch of dudes yelling "Katana!" "Longsword!" ala Daffy & Bugs deciding who gets hunted....

[Old Man]

Honestly I'd be more concerned about balancing the various weapon options so that a player can play either a straight sword or a saber without feeling like he's being penalized by the rules.  (Which is a huge problem I've had with every version of Fantasy Hero published since 1991.)

[Ragitsu]

1 hour ago, Old Man said:

Honestly I'd be more concerned about balancing the various weapon options so that a player can play either a straight sword or a saber without feeling like he's being penalized by the rules.  (Which is a huge problem I've had with every version of Fantasy Hero published since 1991.)

 

Good on you for subscribing to that school of thought. We don't want players to feel punished for choosing a weapon their character feels comfortable with.

 

[Ninja-Bear]

Ummm over compensating? ?

[Christopher R Taylor]

Anime fantasy is all about ridiculous oversized weapons no human could possibly use.

[Ragitsu]

21 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Anime fantasy is all about ridiculous oversized weapons no human could possibly use.

 

Steel is weak. Flesh is strong.

[Ragitsu]

On 3/7/2018 at 4:59 AM, Ninja-Bear said:

Ummm over compensating? ?

 

That character just so happens to be female. Can she be overcompensating for something she doesn't have? Maybe. Perhaps this is overcompensation for a lack of needing to overcompensate?

[Christopher R Taylor]

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That character just so happens to be female.

 

Its so hard to tell in anime.

[Spence]

On 3/7/2018 at 11:34 AM, Christopher R Taylor said:

Anime fantasy is all about ridiculous oversized weapons no human could possibly use.

 

Some anime....  depends on what you watch

[Ninja-Bear]

On 3/9/2018 at 2:44 PM, Ragitsu said:

 

That character just so happens to be female. Can she be overcompensating for something she doesn't have? Maybe. Perhaps this is overcompensation for a lack of needing to overcompensate?

Well Freud has said a thing or two about that! ?

[Ragitsu]

Is it true that people with slimmer/weaker builds are better off using blades with more of a curve as opposed to a straight edge?

[Old Man]

I'd almost argue the reverse.  I feel as though stabby requires less oomph than slashy.  Though really it's more about weapon weight than curvature, i.e. rapier and tulwar vs. broadsword and falchion.

[Ragitsu]

 

This scene is possibly inaccurate in regards to real life metallurgy/sword craftsmanship, but still funny.

[drunkonduty]

Real swords have curves!

[Ragitsu]

On 4/5/2018 at 7:51 PM, drunkonduty said:

Real swords have curves!

 

When all is said and done, the fantasy genre has taught us that the opposite maxim is certainly true. That is to say: "Real curves have swords."

 

[Zeropoint]

And also that a warrior's power is directly proportional to the size of their shoulder pads.

[Ragitsu]

6 minutes ago, Zeropoint said:

And also that a warrior's power is directly proportional to the size of their shoulder pads.

 

 

You may be onto something...

 

[drunkonduty]

@ Ragitsu: Glad to see that lady has armour on all the important bits. <some sort of ironic face emoji here to indicate I'm joking.>

[Funk Thompson]

"A sword is a sword is a sword" until you get into why swords were made the way they were.

 

The Katana is an amazingly efficient weapon...  until you face someone in steel plate, which the Japanese simply did not have.  German zwiehanders were great against mounted cavalry and other armored knights, but not the ideal weapon for facing a lightly armored, fast-moving foe.

 

Different weapons were made to accomplish different jobs, or overcome new tactics or whatever.  The gladius was ideal for roman units due to the way they trained and fought, but is next to useless against cavalry or, say, persian immortals.

 

To realize these differences, I think it is just about giving each type of weapon some unique aspect.  Some of this is baked-in - picks and stilletoes have AP added, that sort of thing.  

 

Beyond that, you might say that curved blades tend to earn more extra damage from STR than straight blades, while straight blades have +1 OCV.  Longer blades might have a DCV bonus over shorter blades.  Some polearms might be better at doing leg sweep maneuvers, weapons with pommel guards might be harder to disarm.

 

Just some thoughts.  I never got into that much detail with it and mostly the shape of the sword was just flavor and had no / little impact on game mechanics.