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RDU Neil

Guns Are Too Slow in Hero

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1 minute ago, Surrealone said:

Glad to see I'm not the only one who feels that range penalties have always been generous in Hero.  It's not a huge problem, but for those who want more realism your proposed RM changes seem solid.

 

I totally agree with the easier Range mods that began with 4th Ed, I think... but only for supers and the highly cinematic games. It made it nice and simple and easy to implement in games where it didn't matter that much, and ridiculous shots were always being made, anyway.


But for DI games... no way.

 

Oh... I also don't give any built in OCV bonuses for a gun unless the character is Brace/Setting for firing.

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1 minute ago, RDU Neil said:

Oh... I also don't give any built in OCV bonuses for a gun unless the character is Brace/Setting for firing.

You might consider it for those firearms equipped with slings, but only if the character makes it clear the sling is being used for something other than ease of transport ... since properly leveraged sling tension improves stability/accuracy.  It's probably a modest +1 OCV at best ... and likely comes at the expense of a half phase to adjust the sling right after transitioning to the weapon. AR-style pistols with a Sig-style brace that's being shouldered probably also deserve a +1 OCV for similar reasons -- maybe giving more if the brace is used properly.

 

Optics, of course, are a different ballgame that I hope you factor for. :)

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1 minute ago, Surrealone said:

You might consider it for those firearms equipped with slings, but only if the character makes it clear the sling is being used for something other than ease of transport ... since properly leveraged sling tension improves stability/accuracy.  It's probably a modest +1 OCV at best ... and likely comes at the expense of a half phase to adjust the sling right after transitioning to the weapon. AR-style pistols with a Sig-style brace that's being shouldered probably also deserve a +1 OCV for similar reasons -- maybe giving more if the brace is used properly.

 

I'd basically say those are version of "Brace" which puts them at 1/2 DCV, but doesn't cost a 1/2 action, so they can 1/2 move with sling or Sig-style brace in place, and fire, and knock off some range modifiers that way. Are you saying you'd make it a full OCV bonus?

 

9 minutes ago, Surrealone said:

Optics, of course, are a different ballgame that I hope you factor for.

 

By optics, are you referring to sites/scopes... or situational optics like lighting, cover, fog-of-war stuff?

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28 minutes ago, RDU Neil said:

 

I'd basically say those are version of "Brace" which puts them at 1/2 DCV, but doesn't cost a 1/2 action, so they can 1/2 move with sling or Sig-style brace in place, and fire, and knock off some range modifiers that way. Are you saying you'd make it a full OCV bonus?

 

 

By optics, are you referring to sites/scopes... or situational optics like lighting, cover, fog-of-war stuff?

IMHO, use of sling tension or a Sig-style brace for added stability/accuracy shouldn't cut DCV, as you're not stuck in place like you are with the Brace maneuver.  I'd actually give it +1 OCV if we're talking about a shouldered firearm due to the stability added by both.  However, as I think about it more, I agree with only reducing range penalties for non-shouldered sling/Sig brace use.

 

By optics I was referring to reflex sights, red dot sights, scopes, and the like.

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4 minutes ago, Surrealone said:

as you're not stuck in place like you are with the Brace maneuver. 

 

Interesting... I'd never interpreted "Brace" as being stuck in place, since it doesn't take a full or even half action. I just assumed it meant you are in a deliberate stance, and not moving as freely, but can still move. Example, the classic, walking forward while siting down your pistol or shotgun. You aren't fully "actively defending" so you are at 1/2 DCV, but you've got a much steadier shot available, should a target reveal itself. To me, those classic scenes of room searching and "Clear!" "Clear!" are where the cops are all half-moving while braced, holding an action to fire as they scan each room.

 

The soldier with his rifle up, with sling or without, moving house to house in a slow, deliberate way, siting along his rifle... that to me is the Brace maneuver in action.

 

Now the "Set" maneuver, yes, that one has always meant being stationary to me. Takes a full action to get into place to get a full +1 OCV.  This is the hunter/sniper lining up a shot. This is the SWAT guy kneeling down at the edge of a door to cover a hallway.  I usually consider the first action a 1/2 Move Brace (initially lining up shot), then if no immediate target, uses next action to Set on a specific area (a hex in game terms) and any target entering into that hex, they can attack with +2 vs Range and +1 OCV over all, plus any bonuses from the gun, scopes, etc.

 

So when it comes to "optics" it so rarely comes up in the games, it usually goes un-addressed. Usually it comes up if there is a sniping scene, where I basically say a character has to be Brace at minimum, often Set, in order to get any bonuses from a Scope. I consider typical iron sites to simply be part of the built in bonus to the gun if any. I've never understood the use of reflex sites, though I see them in video games all the times. I have no idea how useful, if at all, red dot/laser sites are... I'm assuming mostly it is Hollywood "lasers look cool with a fog machine" kind of thing.

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19 minutes ago, RDU Neil said:

 

Interesting... I'd never interpreted "Brace" as being stuck in place, since it doesn't take a full or even half action. I just assumed it meant you are in a deliberate stance, and not moving as freely, but can still move. Example, the classic, walking forward while siting down your pistol or shotgun. You aren't fully "actively defending" so you are at 1/2 DCV, but you've got a much steadier shot available, should a target reveal itself. To me, those classic scenes of room searching and "Clear!" "Clear!" are where the cops are all half-moving while braced, holding an action to fire as they scan each room.

 

The soldier with his rifle up, with sling or without, moving house to house in a slow, deliberate way, siting along his rifle... that to me is the Brace maneuver in action.

Per 6e2 p60, "However, the character’s DCV is halved because he stands still to Brace."

 

 

19 minutes ago, RDU Neil said:

So when it comes to "optics" it so rarely comes up in the games, it usually goes un-addressed. Usually it comes up if there is a sniping scene, where I basically say a character has to be Brace at minimum, often Set, in order to get any bonuses from a Scope. I consider typical iron sites to simply be part of the built in bonus to the gun if any. I've never understood the use of reflex sites, though I see them in video games all the times. I have no idea how useful, if at all, red dot/laser sites are... I'm assuming mostly it is Hollywood "lasers look cool with a fog machine" kind of thing.


Visible lasers are good training tools (easy to when people are jerking the trigger or flinching in anticipation of recoil).  Beyond that, they may generate a fear-factor, but as far as I'm concerned all they serve to do is give your position away, especially in smokey or low-light situations.  (I also think they reinforce bad aiming habits, since you should be looking at your front sight laid over the target, not simply looking downrange at the target.) IR lasers that are invisible to the naked eye are, of course, a different matter, as their purpose is typically to do target illumination for night-vision-capable optics in low or no light situations.

 

As for red dots and reflex sights -- these are mostly about fast front-sight acquisition.  i.e. They don't magically make you more accurate, but they DO let you get the front sight on target faster.  Many OEM pistols these days come with slides milled for mini red dots or reflex sights, and some even come with them pre-installed.  They have their place, and in Hero I'd consider them worth some kind of OCV bonus.

 

Optics capable of magnification offset range mods nicely.  If illuminated, they are likely also worth some kind of OCV bonus, but only in low-light situations (where un-illuminated reticles are hard to see). 

 

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17 minutes ago, Surrealone said:

Per 6e2 p60, "However, the character’s DCV is halved because he stands still to Brace."

 

Interesting. I've never read 6th Ed in depth, and have used my interpretation since 3rd Edition.

 

So, if not Brace, what "maneuver" is the "Readied/Firing Movement" that is pretty typical, as I described above. Moving deliberately, while siting, vs. your weapon pointing down, and moving full out, or at least faster without aiming?

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I just checked the PDFs and the 5er wording for Braced is virtually identical to the 6e quote above. I agree that a sling should add something too. I would probably allow half moves when bracing with a sling.

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1 hour ago, RDU Neil said:

... what "maneuver" is the "Readied/Firing Movement" that is pretty typical, as I described above. Moving deliberately, while siting, vs. your weapon pointing down, and moving full out, or at least faster without aiming?

I don't think that's a maneuver; instead I believe that's simply half-moving and using a Strike (the most basic attack maneuver; a HTH attack and a shot from a pistol are both a Strike).  There's also Strafe (used to simulate running from point A to point B while shooting on the move between the two points) and Snap Shot (used to duck out from behind cover, fire, and then get back behind cover) ... but I don't think either of those maneuvers are what you had in mind when describing.

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From all I've heard (not having been in such a situation) knives are more dangerous in close proximity than guns.  Part of the reason is that guns need to be pointed more specifically than knives, but the other is that you can really tear someone up in a hurry with a blade if you have even a small amount of skill.  And it never runs out of bullets.

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51 minutes ago, Surrealone said:

I don't think that's a maneuver; instead I believe that's simply half-moving and using a Strike (the most basic attack maneuver; a HTH attack and a shot from a pistol are both a Strike).  There's also Strafe (used to simulate running from point A to point B while shooting on the move between the two points) and Snap Shot (used to duck out from behind cover, fire, and then get back behind cover) ... but I don't think either of those maneuvers are what you had in mind when describing.

 

Ok... and stop me if this is beating a dead horse, but this is just an interesting concept to wrestle with for me...

 

1) Think about how shooting training has changed (from my little understanding of it.) From standing square, both hands, arms extended... or cops going in doors with just a revolver in a hip firing position... to the tight combat pistol stances (ala John Wick), and cops going in military style with guns up, sighting/covering as they move, etc.  New techniques wouldn't have caught on if they didn't provide some benefit... so a practiced gun combat maneuver that provides an advantage should be more than a standard, no advantage, 1/2 move held action to fire. 

 

2) Scenario: Two people, both with assault rifles on a harness/sling. One is a guard, walking the halls with hand on grip,  alert, but barrel pointing down and field of vision wider, looking across hallways and doors, etc. Call this "Alert Carry" Second one is walking the halls, also alert, but has rifle up and leveled, sighting as he goes... field of vision more narrow, but focused. Call this "Targeted Sweep"

 

When these two meet, even if the Alert Carry guy is not surprised, the Targeted Sweep guy has WAY more advantage in terms of speed and accuracy of firing, only having to pull the trigger, instead of raise the gun aim and then pull. While the Alert Carry guy might have the advantage of a less constrained field of vision, maybe catch site of the other guy a split second before his sweep turns the right direction... etc.

 

There are real world benefits to both... so how do we reflect this difference in Hero combat? Which one is a maneuver, which one is simply a half move held attack action?

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1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

From all I've heard (not having been in such a situation) knives are more dangerous in close proximity than guns.  Part of the reason is that guns need to be pointed more specifically than knives, but the other is that you can really tear someone up in a hurry with a blade if you have even a small amount of skill.  And it never runs out of bullets.

 

Agree with almost everything but "small" amount of skill. I may be wrong, but I still believe it takes way more skill and practice and experience of cutting an actual living, struggling human being, compared to pulling a trigger. Having done plenty of martial arts, where simply punching/kicking, grabbing, throwing someone is hard, slippery, inexact work that takes a lot of practice to do it well... I just feel the simplicity of a gun will win.


Granted... a shooter with zero experience in hand to hand may just forget all training when someone is on top of them, slicing away. Knives are surprisingly scary in ways a gun is not. I've always attributed it to the psychology of "everyone has been cut, even just a little bit, accidentally, as a kid, in a workshop, in the kitchen, whatever. Everyone knows what a knife is and there is a visceral "That thing can f*** you up!" intuition that guns don't necessarily have. Many have no experience with a gun, and it is almost an abstract thing unless you have shot one, felt the kick/recoil, seen the bullet hole, etc."  Kinda like "Fear of guns has to be learned. Fear of knives is practically genetic!"  That certainly factors into any real combat equation.

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Quote

Agree with almost everything but "small" amount of skill. I may be wrong, but I still believe it takes way more skill and practice and experience of cutting an actual living, struggling human being, compared to pulling a trigger.

 

My thoughts were about a convict with a sharpened comb handle stabbing someone 37 times in a few seconds.  Not like he took special classes or learned knife-fu to do that. 

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1 hour ago, RDU Neil said:

 

Ok... and stop me if this is beating a dead horse, but this is just an interesting concept to wrestle with for me...

 

1) Think about how shooting training has changed (from my little understanding of it.) From standing square, both hands, arms extended... or cops going in doors with just a revolver in a hip firing position... to the tight combat pistol stances (ala John Wick), and cops going in military style with guns up, sighting/covering as they move, etc.  New techniques wouldn't have caught on if they didn't provide some benefit... so a practiced gun combat maneuver that provides an advantage should be more than a standard, no advantage, 1/2 move held action to fire. 

 

2) Scenario: Two people, both with assault rifles on a harness/sling. One is a guard, walking the halls with hand on grip,  alert, but barrel pointing down and field of vision wider, looking across hallways and doors, etc. Call this "Alert Carry" Second one is walking the halls, also alert, but has rifle up and leveled, sighting as he goes... field of vision more narrow, but focused. Call this "Targeted Sweep"

 

When these two meet, even if the Alert Carry guy is not surprised, the Targeted Sweep guy has WAY more advantage in terms of speed and accuracy of firing, only having to pull the trigger, instead of raise the gun aim and then pull. While the Alert Carry guy might have the advantage of a less constrained field of vision, maybe catch site of the other guy a split second before his sweep turns the right direction... etc.

 

There are real world benefits to both... so how do we reflect this difference in Hero combat? Which one is a maneuver, which one is simply a half move held attack action?

Perhaps some Lightning Reflexes to help determine who acts first.  That's what seems most appropriate.  Perhaps formulate a Gun-Fu type maneuver around that concept?

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5 minutes ago, Hyper-Man said:

I don't have easy access to it from my phone but it seemed more about buying rank perks to then qualify for buying advanced abilities. There are some neat ones.

 

So it doesn't have alternative rules for making more "realistic" gun fights... but likely more over-the-top gun craziness?


Yeah... I'll skip that.

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7 hours ago, RDU Neil said:

 

 

2) Scenario: Two people, both with assault rifles on a harness/sling. One is a guard, walking the halls with hand on grip,  alert, but barrel pointing down and field of vision wider, looking across hallways and doors, etc. Call this "Alert Carry" Second one is walking the halls, also alert, but has rifle up and leveled, sighting as he goes... field of vision more narrow, but focused. Call this "Targeted Sweep"

 

When these two meet, even if the Alert Carry guy is not surprised, the Targeted Sweep guy has WAY more advantage in terms of speed and accuracy of firing, only having to pull the trigger, instead of raise the gun aim and then pull. While the Alert Carry guy might have the advantage of a less constrained field of vision, maybe catch site of the other guy a split second before his sweep turns the right direction... etc.

 

 

"Maybe catch sight of the other guy..." and maybe not. The DEX and dice will tell.

 

If Alert Carry hits and Targeted Sweep misses, then Alert spotted his target and got the gun in position and fired his shot before Targeted, suddenly hit, reflexively pulled the trigger before lining up his shot. If Target hits and Alert misses, then the fact Target's gun was in position to fire was decisive. If both hit, and it matters who shot first, it was whoever had a higher DEX. If both miss, each spoiled their own aim dodging the other's shot.

 

7 hours ago, RDU Neil said:

 

There are real world benefits to both... so how do we reflect this difference in Hero combat? Which one is a maneuver, which one is simply a half move held attack action?

 

In my opinion, both would be a half move and held action. Hero is only capable of so much granularity. The difference is reflected in how the players describe their actions and/or in what the dice show.

 

However, if you really want to make distinctions, let me quote you again....

 

"so a practiced gun combat maneuver that provides an advantage should be more than a standard, no advantage, 1/2 move held action to fire."

 

A practiced gun combat maneuver sounds like something that would cost points like any other Skill or Ability.

 

 Combat Crouch:  (Total: 4 Active Cost, 1 Real Cost) Lightning Reflexes (+8 DEX to act first with All Ranged Attacks) (4 Active Points); 1 Recoverable Charge (-1 1/4), Concentration, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (1/2 DCV; -1/2) (Real Cost: 1)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says now Lucius will probably write up a gun toting female character named Alert Carrie.

 

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6 hours ago, RDU Neil said:

 

So it doesn't have alternative rules for making more "realistic" gun fights... but likely more over-the-top gun craziness?


Yeah... I'll skip that.

I own it.  It doesn't contain the droids you're looking for.

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1 hour ago, Lucius said:

Hero is only capable of so much granularity.

 

This I agree with. Funny thing, I usually enjoy less granularity at the high levels, where you just have a bunch of points and hand wave details.  It is the lower level, where small, incremental differences in maneuvers/actions really mean something. Coming up with some core maneuver/mechanics that can be used based on the situation appeals to me there. I dislike specific power builds to reflect something that could be "learned" so I am more likely to come up with a skill or a combat maneuver to add in.

 

 

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12 hours ago, RDU Neil said:

 

This I agree with. Funny thing, I usually enjoy less granularity at the high levels, where you just have a bunch of points and hand wave details.  It is the lower level, where small, incremental differences in maneuvers/actions really mean something. Coming up with some core maneuver/mechanics that can be used based on the situation appeals to me there. I dislike specific power builds to reflect something that could be "learned" so I am more likely to come up with a skill or a combat maneuver to add in.

 

 

 

If it’s something that needs to be learned, then doesn’t that mean someone would need to pay character points for it? Anyone can use a Strike maneuver, but you need to pay four points to know Martial Strike and gain the additional combat bonuses it gives.

 

To me, free maneuvers are something anyone can do. If you want a character to know how to do something in combat that not everyone knows how to do, paying a few points for such abilities seems in line with how the system functions.

 

it sounds to me like you could create a few ranged martial arts maneuvers to accomplish a number of things being discussed here, even adding in limited amounts of Lightning Reflexes effects. If you don’t like calling such maneuvers Gun Fu, maybe call them Enhanced Firearm Control instead.

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3 minutes ago, Steve said:

 

If it’s something that needs to be learned, then doesn’t that mean someone would need to pay character points for it? Anyone can use a Strike maneuver, but you need to pay four points to know Martial Strike and gain the additional combat bonuses it gives.

 

To me, free maneuvers are something anyone can do. If you want a character to know how to do something in combat that not everyone knows how to do, paying a few points for such abilities seems in line with how the system functions.

 

it sounds to me like you could create a few ranged martial arts maneuvers to accomplish a number of things being discussed here, even adding in limited amounts of Lightning Reflexes effects. If you don’t like calling such maneuvers Gun Fu, maybe call them Enhanced Firearm Control instead.

 

Most maneuvers are conceptually "learned" actions... but the game allows some to be free to all characters, while others are paid for. Usually paying for something indicates that it is a more rare/difficult/hard to learn action... but then you get "Move-By" for free, and I'd say that realistically, moving at speed and clothes-lining a target as you pass by is actually pretty hard to do effectively and would require practice at least... but whatever. The game makes certain assumptions and that's fine. Usually paid for maneuvers have more benefit than countering disadvantages. I could see particular maneuvers being built that cost skill points, and some that could be just added to the "everyone can do them" list.

 

Still working out what these might be, but I'm leaning toward defining some free ones.

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8 hours ago, RDU Neil said:

 

Most maneuvers are conceptually "learned" actions... but the game allows some to be free to all characters, while others are paid for. Usually paying for something indicates that it is a more rare/difficult/hard to learn action... but then you get "Move-By" for free, and I'd say that realistically, moving at speed and clothes-lining a target as you pass by is actually pretty hard to do effectively and would require practice at least... but whatever. The game makes certain assumptions and that's fine. Usually paid for maneuvers have more benefit than countering disadvantages. I could see particular maneuvers being built that cost skill points, and some that could be just added to the "everyone can do them" list.

 

Still working out what these might be, but I'm leaning toward defining some free ones.

 

Yes, there are maneuvers that are harder to do, but they also carry some hefty CV and even damage penalties within them. Move-By is much less effective than Passing Strike, which gives the ability to make a full move, attack at +1 OCV at full STR and add v/10. Not too bad for five points.

 

For a free maneuver, Strafe isn't bad if you want to do "run and gun" ranged maneuvering, with -v/6 OCV and -2 DCV while you do a full move, firing as you go. Snap Shot gives only -1 OCV but lets you duck back behind cover after firing.

 

Using such already existing maneuvers and the pricing in the martial arts rules, you can come up with 0-1 point maneuvers that are given free to characters without delving into power builds at all. 

 

 

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