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Ninja-Bear

Multiple attack and Combined Attack

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14 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

I thought you weren’t allowed to by penalty skills levels or any levels for that matter with multiple attack itself?

PSL's, yes. CSL's specifically with multiple attack, no. But you can USE the CSL's from the underlying attacks in anyway you choose, per normal.

 

Quote

A Combat Skill Level that can apply to a Multiple Attack can be used for any of the standard uses for CSLs: increasing OCV (the only use for a 2-point CSL); increasing DCV; or increasing damage (see below).

 

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1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

If you want to be so well trained that multiple attacks don't impact DCV, or impact it less, +x DCV, only when multiple attacking, does the trick.  Buy enough and you are so good at multiple attacking that you are actually HARDER to hit when attacking multiple targets.  Making multiple attacks is powerful, so it comes with significant penalties. 

As Hugh notes, one way around not buying CSL's with Multiple attack is to simply buy OCV or DCV and limit it. Although it would generally make more sense for the character to just buy 3 point CSL's with his most common attacks and use those per above. If you did limit OCV or DCV I would probably not give you more than a -1 for it, since it gives you great incentive to make multiple attacks on every phase.

 

- E

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9 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Are we mixing between Multiple and Combined attacks?  If you have a Flash and a Blast, you can fire a Combined Attack using both powers at a single target at no penalties.  See 6e V2 p 74 - that is not a Multiple Attack.

 

To the question of DCV, 6e notes that, if using two or more abilities that have different DCV modifiers, you use the worst of the bunch.  The example given is a Martial Disarm (+1 DCV) + a Martial Strike (+2 DCV).  Martial Disarm is worse, so +1 DCV.  This would be followed by the halving.

 

If you want to be so well trained that multiple attacks don't impact DCV, or impact it less, +x DCV, only when multiple attacking, does the trick.  Buy enough and you are so good at multiple attacking that you are actually HARDER to hit when attacking multiple targets.  Making multiple attacks is powerful, so it comes with significant penalties. 

 

I probably am mixing them...

 

The point is - I don't think a Multiple Attack should come with the DCV Penalty. I personally think the very idea of using two attacks in a Phase is part of the base assumption of the system.

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8 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

As I understand it, in APG I you can buy off 1/2 DCV to -2 DCV for 10 CP.  o think that is too steep. What do you guys think of Custom Adavantage of 5 CPs ? You still have the -2 DCV.

Defensive attack. 10 sounds like a deal to me, if you look at buying enough limited DCV or PSL's in Superheroic campaigns to offset 1/2 DCV. In lower level Heroic, just buy the PSL's. Optionally, APG also lets you but it for just HTH or just ranged for 5 points.

 

- E

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On 6/26/2018 at 8:54 AM, eepjr24 said:

Bad news, Bear. (Sorry, I could not resist)

 

6e2, 37

 

Aha! I knew what was niggling at my brain! Multiple Attack is listed as Combat Maneuver therefore one should replace the modifiers for the least favorable as mentioned. 

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7 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Aha! I knew what was niggling at my brain! Multiple Attack is listed as Combat Maneuver therefore one should replace the modifiers for the least favorable as mentioned. 

Sure? The combat maneuver penalties don't add up, you take the worst one and then halve last.

 

- E

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7 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

If you think ten points is a deal that’s fine. Me? Over priced.

 

Easy enough to fix if you are the GM. ? And if you are trying to lean toward more multiple attacks that would probably get you started.

 

- E

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1 hour ago, eepjr24 said:

Sure? The combat maneuver penalties don't add up, you take the worst one and then halve last.

 

- E

Right you take the worst one which is 1/2 DCV for Multiple Attack instead of -2 DCV for just doing a single Move By.  The half DCV in the list would be for things (at least way I understand them) would be if you were surprised or got flashed. 

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20 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Right you take the worst one which is 1/2 DCV for Multiple Attack instead of -2 DCV for just doing a single Move By.  The half DCV in the list would be for things (at least way I understand them) would be if you were surprised or got flashed. 

 

I don't read it that way, but here is the RAW:

Quote

DCV Modifiers
Using Multiple Attack reduces a character to ½ DCV. If one of the attacks in a Multiple Attack also halves the character’s DCV, the effect isn’t cumulative (a character’s DCV can only be reduced to half once). A character may make a Multiple Attack with two or more Powers, Combat Maneuvers, weapons, or other forms of attack that provide DCV modifiers. In this case, the character uses the worst of the modifiers (i.e., the ones that hinder him the most, or help him the least). For example, suppose a character wants to perform a Martial Disarm (-1 OCV, +1 DCV) and a Martial Strike (+0 OCV, +2 DCV) against a target as a Multiple Attack. The character is at +1 DCV — the worst DCV modifier from the two maneuvers.

 

- E

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13 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

If you think ten points is a deal that’s fine. Me? Over priced.

 

Depends on your DCV.  A DCV up to 8, not worth it.  A DCV 9 or higher, it saves you DCV vs. just buying more DCV.

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1 hour ago, dsatow said:

 

Depends on your DCV.  A DCV up to 8, not worth it.  A DCV 9 or higher, it saves you DCV vs. just buying more DCV.

I think 11 is the break point at which it gets better to buy Defensive Attack? DCV 9 or 10 is a wash. 8 or lower it is better to buy DPSL, either cheaper or better DCV result or both.

 

At 11 base DCV:

Defensive attack is 10 points which gets you -2 or 9 DCV.

10 points of DPSL's gets you +5 DCV for purposes of halving or 16/2 = 8 DCV.

 

At 10 base DCV:

Defensive attack is 10 points which gets you -2 or 8 DCV.

10 points of DPSL's gets you +5 DCV for purposes of halving or 15/2 = 8 DCV.

 

At 9 base DCV:

Defensive attack is 10 points which gets you -2 or 7 DCV.

10 points of DPSL's gets you +5 DCV for purposes of halving or 14/2 = 7 DCV.

 

At 8 base DCV:

Defensive attack is 10 points which gets you -2 or 6 DCV.

10 points of DPSL's gets you +5 DCV for purposes of halving or 13/2 = 7 DCV.

 

At 7 base DCV:

Defensive attack is 10 points which gets you -2 or 5 DCV.

10 points of DPSL's gets you +5 DCV for purposes of halving or 12/2 = 6 DCV.

 

At 6 base DCV:

Defensive attack is 10 points which gets you -2 or 4 DCV.

10 points of DPSL's gets you +5 DCV for purposes of halving or 11/2 = 6 DCV.

 

And repeating for sake of easy reference:

 

Quote

DCV CHECKLIST
1. Determine base DCV (character’s DCV Characteristic).
2. Add any applicable Combat Skill Levels the character wishes to use to increase his DCV.
3. Apply any modifiers for the particular weapon, armor, or shield the character uses.
4. Apply any modifiers for the particular Combat Maneuver or Martial Maneuver the character uses.
5. Apply any Combat Modifiers.
6. Apply any other modifiers.
7. Apply any modifiers that halve DCV (or otherwise reduce it by a fraction or percentage). A character’s DCV can only be halved once, regardless of how many “halving” modifiers he’s subject to.

 

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And for Ninja-Bear, if you want to base your calcs on DPSL's and limit them to HTH or Ranged only, you'd need to use the 3 point DPSL's, instead of the 2 points I used above, which changes the break point a bit but the idea is the same.

 

 -E

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6 hours ago, eepjr24 said:

I think 11 is the break point at which it gets better to buy Defensive Attack? DCV 9 or 10 is a wash. 8 or lower it is better to buy DPSL, either cheaper or better DCV result or both.

 

At 11 base DCV:

Defensive attack is 10 points which gets you -2 or 9 DCV.

10 points of DPSL's gets you +5 DCV for purposes of halving or 16/2 = 8 DCV.

 

At 10 base DCV:

Defensive attack is 10 points which gets you -2 or 8 DCV.

10 points of DPSL's gets you +5 DCV for purposes of halving or 15/2 = 8 DCV.

 

At 9 base DCV:

Defensive attack is 10 points which gets you -2 or 7 DCV.

10 points of DPSL's gets you +5 DCV for purposes of halving or 14/2 = 7 DCV.

 

Unfortunately, you can't use PSLs to counter the effects of the 1/2 DCV since it is not actually a DCV modifier (95% sure on this but you can ask Steve on the questions forum).  I was using the straight DCV characteristic from 6th ed.  

 

Therefore, a DCV 9 halved is 5.  Taking a -2 penalty would be 7 DCV.  +2 DCV is 10 points which would bring your base DCV up to 11, or 6 DCV when halved.  Thus 10 points saves you 5 points effectively. 

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7 hours ago, eepjr24 said:

I think 11 is the break point at which it gets better to buy Defensive Attack? DCV 9 or 10 is a wash. 8 or lower it is better to buy DPSL, either cheaper or better DCV result or both.

 

At 11 base DCV:

Defensive attack is 10 points which gets you -2 or 9 DCV.

10 points of DPSL's gets you +5 DCV for purposes of halving or 16/2 = 8 DCV.

 

At 10 base DCV:

Defensive attack is 10 points which gets you -2 or 8 DCV.

10 points of DPSL's gets you +5 DCV for purposes of halving or 15/2 = 8 DCV.

 

At 9 base DCV:

Defensive attack is 10 points which gets you -2 or 7 DCV.

10 points of DPSL's gets you +5 DCV for purposes of halving or 14/2 = 7 DCV.

 

At 8 base DCV:

Defensive attack is 10 points which gets you -2 or 6 DCV.

10 points of DPSL's gets you +5 DCV for purposes of halving or 13/2 = 7 DCV.

 

At 7 base DCV:

Defensive attack is 10 points which gets you -2 or 5 DCV.

10 points of DPSL's gets you +5 DCV for purposes of halving or 12/2 = 6 DCV.

 

At 6 base DCV:

Defensive attack is 10 points which gets you -2 or 4 DCV.

10 points of DPSL's gets you +5 DCV for purposes of halving or 11/2 = 6 DCV.

 

And repeating for sake of easy reference:

 

 

 Have you compared this to how you can buy off other 1/2 DCV effects? For example Zero G is 1/2DCV. 3 pts with proper skill give you a chance. 5 CP Environmental Move talent buys it off. Defense Manuever I allows no behind attacker and with II it’s 5 CP and stops gang up bonus which with enough people can bring your DCB to 1/2.  Heck you can try to make a non-targeting roll when blinded to be from 1/2DCV to -2 for free. So no, I think the pricing is wrong.

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9 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

 Have you compared this to how you can buy off other 1/2 DCV effects? For example Zero G is 1/2DCV. 3 pts with proper skill give you a chance. 5 CP Environmental Move talent buys it off. Defense Manuever I allows no behind attacker and with II it’s 5 CP and stops gang up bonus which with enough people can bring your DCB to 1/2.  Heck you can try to make a non-targeting roll when blinded to be from 1/2DCV to -2 for free. So no, I think the pricing is wrong.

 

Zero G is 6 points for Environmental Movement. This is probably the one that is closest to me since it is built as DPSL's. If I was going to recost it I would use this as a basis. In my opinion, Multiple attack is more common than zero g and should cost more, but opinions obviously vary.

 

Defense Maneuver requires a half phase action in addition to the points.

 

To offset the OCV penalties for being blinded costs 15 points (Combat Sense). The roll you describe allows you to change your DCV for one target and costs a half phase action every phase in addition to be a roll, not a sure thing. All other opponents you are still at 1/2 DCV.

 

Not arguing against your opinion here, you are entitled to it and can remedy the situation in your games as I have mentioned. Just pointing out that the things you compare to have other disadvantages associated.

 

- E

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11 hours ago, dsatow said:

Unfortunately, you can't use PSLs to counter the effects of the 1/2 DCV since it is not actually a DCV modifier (95% sure on this but you can ask Steve on the questions forum).  I was using the straight DCV characteristic from 6th ed.  

 

Therefore, a DCV 9 halved is 5.  Taking a -2 penalty would be 7 DCV.  +2 DCV is 10 points which would bring your base DCV up to 11, or 6 DCV when halved.  Thus 10 points saves you 5 points effectively. 

Environmental movement, Zero G uses DPSL's to buy off 1/2 DCV.

 

- E

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On 6/28/2018 at 8:43 AM, eepjr24 said:

As Hugh notes, one way around not buying CSL's with Multiple attack is to simply buy OCV or DCV and limit it. Although it would generally make more sense for the character to just buy 3 point CSL's with his most common attacks and use those per above. If you did limit OCV or DCV I would probably not give you more than a -1 for it, since it gives you great incentive to make multiple attacks on every phase.

 

The example on p 77 makes it clear your skill levels must be usable with all of the attacks included.  If you only plan to Punch, 3 point skill levels will do the trick. 

 

On 6/28/2018 at 5:02 PM, ghost-angel said:

 

I probably am mixing them...

 

The point is - I don't think a Multiple Attack should come with the DCV Penalty. I personally think the very idea of using two attacks in a Phase is part of the base assumption of the system.

 

Using more than one attack power to attack a single target carries no DCV penalty (and  no other penalties).  That is a Combined Attack.  Making more than one attack with the same power, or making attacks against multiple targets, is a Multiple Attack. 

 

On 6/29/2018 at 7:36 AM, Ninja-Bear said:

Right you take the worst one which is 1/2 DCV for Multiple Attack instead of -2 DCV for just doing a single Move By.  The half DCV in the list would be for things (at least way I understand them) would be if you were surprised or got flashed. 

 

Half DCV is not a modifier.  It is a halving.  So you apply the worst modifier (-2) and then halve what is left.

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