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Enos Thanos has Cumulative Mental Illusions and wants to attack Horus so that Horus does not realise that the illusion is not real, which requires +20.  Cumulative normally allows you to keep rolling before the attack is applied.

 

Horus has The All-Seeing Eye which, amongst other things, gives him Mental Awareness so he can see mental attacks.

 

Question: Which trumps which?  Can Enos Thanos trick Horus or will Horus see though it?

 

Question 2: Would your answer be any different if Enos Thanos was using his Cumulative Telepathy instead, or his Cumulative Mind Scan (from out of immediate LOS)?

 

Question 3: Would your answer be any different if the power were not Cumulative?

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If I were the GM, Horus would see the attacks coming . He paid for Mental Awareness and Enos did not make his power invisible. If Enos manages to accumulate enough to get his +20 effect, , he will still affect Horus(seeing it coming doesn't make you immune, it just lets you react). Also if Enos does make it to +20 then Horus still will not know what specific power Enos used on him even after he makes his breakout roll. 

 

No to questions 2 and 3.

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I don't know if this helps, but this is how I would GM the situation and my logic:

 

IIRC, Cumulative only triggers when it reaches a certain level.  Mental awareness does not have discriminatory.  The target know if they are attacked by mental powers.

 

So the target knows he is being attacked mentally and by who.  They don't know What the effect is until it triggers.

 

If we assume, the target also has discriminatory and possibly analyze, the target would know who is attacking him and with what before the level of effect occurs.  It doesn't help against the threat of the mental illusion but may help in break out rolls.

 

This has been shown in comics and movies for a while now.  The hero knows the attack is an illusion, but the illusion seems so real to the hero, that the hero gets lost in the illusion anyways.

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Per RAW, Mental Awareness detects the Activation of the Power, not whether it has taken effect yet, so Horus would detect the activations of Mental Illusions as they accumulate points... However once the 'Illusion has taken hold with the "Target Will Remember Illusion As Being Real" +20 modifier... Horus will no longer believe that he was/is the victim of Mental Illusions (since per RAW he now believes the Illusions to be real). Logical conclusions to that inconsistency include that he will believe he resisted a previously applied mental illusion, and what he perceives now is the real world, or his mental awareness failed him and he was detecting a "false positive", or that the enemy was using Images To Mental Awareness and he "saw" through it...

 

Although this does bring up an interesting rules interaction. Mental Powers are inherently Imperceptible, yet they can explicitly be perceived by Detect. Can other Imperceptible Powers be detected by the appropriate Enhanced Senses (in other words, does Detect trump Invisible Power Effects, or is that specific to mental powers' version of Imperceptibility)?

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15 hours ago, Cantriped said:

Although this does bring up an interesting rules interaction. Mental Powers are inherently Imperceptible, yet they can explicitly be perceived by Detect. Can other Imperceptible Powers be detected by the appropriate Enhanced Senses (in other words, does Detect trump Invisible Power Effects, or is that specific to mental powers' version of Imperceptibility)?

 

I might be remembering wrong, but Players have to buy Invisibility to specific senses or sense groups, and Detects almost always fall under the Unusual Sense Group, so unless a Player adds the Unusual Sense Group to his Invisibility power build, then Detects will still detect them. J

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16 hours ago, Cantriped said:

Although this does bring up an interesting rules interaction. Mental Powers are inherently Imperceptible, yet they can explicitly be perceived by Detect. Can other Imperceptible Powers be detected by the appropriate Enhanced Senses (in other words, does Detect trump Invisible Power Effects, or is that specific to mental powers' version of Imperceptibility)?

 

Mental powers are automatically visible to only one Sense Group, the Mental Sense Group (see 6eV1p208 for a discussion of Sense Groups).

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19 minutes ago, mallet said:

 

I might be remembering wrong, but Players have to buy Invisibility to specific senses or sense groups, and Detects almost always fall under the Unusual Sense Group, so unless a Player adds the Unusual Sense Group to his Invisibility power build, then Detects will still detect them. J

A power normally has to buy Fully Invisible to the two sense groups it is automatically perceivable to (one of which must be Sight) in order to be Imperceptible. Mental Powers are automatically Imperceptible, yet they can explicitly be perceived by Mental Awareness because that is a caveat of being a Mental Power. Detects are not "almost always" Unusual Group Senses though. Eight out of nine of the example enhanced senses from CC are assumed to be part of an existing sense group (the exception being Spatial Awareness). The most common Detect in my campaigns has been Sight-Based Detect Magic. 

 

14 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Mental powers are automatically visible to only one Sense Group, the Mental Sense Group (see 6eV1p208 for a discussion of Sense Groups).

That's basically how it works in CC/FHC as well (with semantic differences). What I was pondering though was whether or not an Imperceptible Blast (with the SFX of Heat) can be perceived by Detect Heat (Sight).

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8 minutes ago, Cantriped said:

A power normally has to buy Fully Invisible to the two sense groups it is automatically perceivable to (one of which must be Sight) in order to be Imperceptible. Mental Powers are automatically Imperceptible, yet they can explicitly be perceived by Mental Awareness because that is a caveat of being a Mental Power.

 

I would say that Mental Powers are automatically perceivable by only one Sense Group, which is always the Mental Sense group.

 

8 minutes ago, Cantriped said:

That's basically how it works in CC/FHC as well (with semantic differences). What I was pondering though was whether or not an Imperceptible Blast (with the SFX of Heat) can be perceived by Detect Heat (Sight).

 

If the Blast has full IPE, I would suggest the heat is so tightly contained within the blast that it does not radiate to be perceived by that Detect Heat (Sight).

 

Much as a laser is just light, but is not visible unless it strikes the eye directly.

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57 minutes ago, Cantriped said:

 Detects are not "almost always" Unusual Group Senses though. Eight out of nine of the example enhanced senses from CC are assumed to be part of an existing sense group (the exception being Spatial Awareness). The most common Detect in my campaigns has been Sight-Based Detect Magic. 

 

 

I'm not sure about CC/FHC as I don't have them yet (and yes, I know they are the "cannon" rules now) but in 6th Ed. all Enhanced Senses are by default in the Unusual Sense Group, but can be made a "Simulated Sense Group" by attaching it to an existing Sense Group. So Detect Magic at its "base" power does not involve any existing Senses (sight/hearing/smell, etc...) but it can be added to any of those Sense Groups. The main reason for doing so is that it is cheaper as you are basically "piggybacking" on the existing sense, but this comes at the cost of making the Detect vulnerable to everything that effects the Sense Group it is "piggybacking" on. At its "pure" build, all Detects are immune to any Sense affecting and adjusting powers. For example, a Darkness area of effect, would stop anyone from seeing into it, but a character with Detect Magic in it's "pure" build (with the appropriate range adders) would still be able to Detect Magic inside the area of Darkness, just not visually see them (although with adders like Discrimination, etc...) he/she could still locate and interact with them.

 

An example straight from the rules:

 

Example: Arkelos the mage wants to have “Magesight,” the ability to detect all forms of magic. He buys Detect Magic (5 Character Points) as a Sense (+2 Character Points). This allows him to
detect magic, but requires him to touch any object or area he wishes to perceive and tells him only that magic is present and how intense it is. Later, after earning some Experience Points, Arkelos buys the Range and Discriminatory Sense Modifiers for his Magesight. Now he can Detect Magic at Range, and can determine the type and quality of magic he perceives.

 

In this example, the power isn't actually "linked" to Sight, and is not effected by any Sight adjustment powers, but it costs more XP to give it the same "abilities" as Sight. It would have been cheaper for Arkelos to buy Detect Magic (Sight Sense Group) from the start, but then it would be subject to all things that effect his normal vision. 

 

Just built a couple of version in HD. 

 

Detect Magic made with the simulated Sight Group build costs 5cp (by "piggybacking" it on Sight you get Sense, Targeting and Range for free, but it is effected by everything that effects sight)

 

The "pure" form ends up costing 22cp because you have to buy Sense, Targeting and Range as extras, but it will be unaffected by anything that effects any of the characters other senses. So a lot more expensive, but might be the "right" build for some characters. Especially once you start adding limitations to it.

 

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17 hours ago, mallet said:

 

I'm not sure about CC/FHC as I don't have them yet (and yes, I know they are the "cannon" rules now) but in 6th Ed. all Enhanced Senses are by default in the Unusual Sense Group, but can be made a "Simulated Sense Group" by attaching it to an existing Sense Group. So Detect Magic at its "base" power does not involve any existing Senses (sight/hearing/smell, etc...) but it can be added to any of those Sense Groups. The main reason for doing so is that it is cheaper as you are basically "piggybacking" on the existing sense, but this comes at the cost of making the Detect vulnerable to everything that effects the Sense Group it is "piggybacking" on. At its "pure" build, all Detects are immune to any Sense affecting and adjusting powers. For example, a Darkness area of effect, would stop anyone from seeing into it, but a character with Detect Magic in it's "pure" build (with the appropriate range adders) would still be able to Detect Magic inside the area of Darkness, just not visually see them (although with adders like Discrimination, etc...) he/she could still locate and interact with them.

 

An example straight from the rules:

 

Example: Arkelos the mage wants to have “Magesight,” the ability to detect all forms of magic. He buys Detect Magic (5 Character Points) as a Sense (+2 Character Points). This allows him to
detect magic, but requires him to touch any object or area he wishes to perceive and tells him only that magic is present and how intense it is. Later, after earning some Experience Points, Arkelos buys the Range and Discriminatory Sense Modifiers for his Magesight. Now he can Detect Magic at Range, and can determine the type and quality of magic he perceives.

 

In this example, the power isn't actually "linked" to Sight, and is not effected by any Sight adjustment powers, but it costs more XP to give it the same "abilities" as Sight. It would have been cheaper for Arkelos to buy Detect Magic (Sight Sense Group) from the start, but then it would be subject to all things that effect his normal vision. 

 

 

Looking at 6e p 214, Mage's Eye (Detect Magic linked to Sight) is also an example straight from the 6e rules. 

 

I would suggest that "8 out of 9 are  not  Unusual sense groups" is Cantriped's experience (perhaps backed up by published characters - I haven't looked), not a rule in any of the books.

 

Oh wait, 6e v2 p 10 indicates that

 

Typically a Detect is subject to the Simulated Sense Rule

 

"Typical" seems like about 8/9 times, so 6e RAW seems to support Cantriped's conclusion. 

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Oh, I wasn't questioning 8/9 of times, in fact I would think in play it would be closer to 9.5/10 times, as who wouldn't want to save 15+ character points on a power. What I was trying to express was that it wasn't the only way to build the power, and in fact, it was the default way that they are built in Hero (or in Hero Designer. Look at when you build a Detect power in HD, it starts as an Unusual Sense Group Power by default. You have to switch it so that it simulates another Sense Group). And if we want to get "technical" Enhanced Senses are always an  Unusual Sense Group per (6th Ed) RAW, only that they can be made to Simulate another Sense Group. As I said, I haven't read CC or FHC yet so I am not sure what the current RAW rules are in there. 

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