Feint

[MrAgdesh]

I’m playing around with a swashbuckling setting and I’m looking at Feint (HSMA pg 200, UMA pg 116) as an Agility skill to boost OCV for the next attack. 

The trouble is that I don’t think that it works. Assuming that you go on a higher DEX than the target and you declare half phase Feint (and get a good roll) your opponent can just Abort to a Dodge - which probably easily negates the Feint mechanic wise, and just seems to nix it thematically,  too.

The same could be said for ‘surprise manoeuvre’ bonuses.

 

[Hyper-Man]

They have to choose to abort before the dice roll to use dodge or block.  The sleight of hand feint will have a higher OCV but they can't react to it specifically unless they know about it in advance.

 

Roll with the punch it is the only abort that can be attempted after the attack roll.

[MrAgdesh]

Yes, but if the Feint/Sleight roll works then the target will know to abort before the attack roll gets boosted. Same if the GM grants a surprise manoeuvre bonus. 

It just seems counter intuitive to me that these “surprises” allow somebody to then block or dodge them. 

[Greywind]

The GM normally runs the opposition anyway.

[Hyper-Man]

57 minutes ago, MrAgdesh said:

Yes, but if the Feint/Sleight roll works then the target will know to abort before the attack roll gets boosted. Same if the GM grants a surprise manoeuvre bonus. 

It just seems counter intuitive to me that these “surprises” allow somebody to then block or dodge them. 

 

Huh?

 

If the feint roll is successful and the target has no prior knowledge then the whole point of the exercise is that they would NOT know.

[Hyper-Man]

Surprise is one of the few situations in HERO when defensive abort actions are not usually allowed.  Combat Luck usually doesn't work either (must be aware...).  It's also a good reason for buying Danger Sense.

[Ninja-Bear]

Mr Agdesh I hear what you’re saying, the player knows about the surprise and would logically Dodge. However the character doesn’t know and the GM should enforce this and the player should go with it. 

[Lucius]

 

 

Hm, so it sounds like what's really being created is the ability to keep one's opponent from Blocking or Dodging.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

What's being created here is a palindromedary tagline

[LoneWolf]

A feint is supposed to be a false attack that causes your opponent to be at disadvantage vs the real attack.  Because of this I would say you have to declare the dodge or block before the feint.  Basically consider feint a combined attack not a separate action.  

[Doc Democracy]

It could be looked at with that in mind.  If someone is good enough to feint, it encourages their opponent to do exactly the wrong thing.  It is possible to write that in HERO in a number of ways.  You can presume that the feint is successful and simply give the attacker additional OCV, damage or both or you can have the OCV and/or damage be dependent on an additional roll.  

 

I think the problem, as described, is that, if the target knows that his opponent's OCV is raised on the next action, then they may be entirely able to negate that advantage by dodging (aborting to that dodge if necessary).  If you had properly been feinted then you would not be thinking of dodging, you would be committed to whatever action your opponent fooled you into pursuing.  There is the potential for the GM managing this but that has the potential for a lot of arguing that "I was going to do that anyway"...

 

I think that, instead of providing a bonus to damage or OCV, the person who succeeds in a feint should be able to dictate what his opponent's next manouevre should be. Before committing to that manouevre on their next action, the target should get a chance to see the trap (some kind of INT versus feint roll) as a last chance of not doing what the opponent wants you to do.  I do not think it should be easy to feint but if you do, it should not be easy to spot the trap set for you.

 

Doc

[Doc Democracy]

I also think that there should be some risk in a feint.  I do not think that you should waste an action feinting.  You should make the roll to feint, if you succeed then you can make an attack with a reduced OCV or damage in that same action, this is the action that draws whatever you want the opponent to do.  If you fail the feint then you have left yourself open, suffer the same OCV or damage penalties and incur DCV penalties on top...

[Hugh Neilson]

How does the target know the feint occurred and succeeded?

 

Opponent's action comes up and he Feints.  Dice get rolled.  Depending on the results:

 

 - he tried to lure you in with a fancy maneuver, but you picked up on the attempt and were not lured in; or

 - he lunges forward with his rapier and...misses.

 

The latter is all the target would perceive of a successful feint, so why should the player have any more information than that?

 

EDIT:  Now, when the feinter attacks next phase, perhaps the target gets to make a PER roll to figure out that prior attack was just to lure him in, and gave the feinter an advantage.

 

So the next time he misses, does the target assume it was another feint and Dodge or Block?

[Ninja-Bear]

How about instead of raising OCV, it decreases the targets DCV. Or better yet, instead of dealing with CV directly, it makes the attack act as invisible just for the next phase? 

[Doc Democracy]

I think feinting would be the preserve of the highly skilled tackling opponents that were not as skilled and relied on natural talents to make up the difference.

[MrAgdesh]

As others  have pointed out, the problem is in player vs character knowledge. The target may not know to abort to a Dodge but the target’s player would. 

However, as has also been pointed out, it can be difficult to differentiate these at times. 

[MrAgdesh]

I agree with Greywind in that if you are playing NPCs then matters like this are less relevant. However If you’re talking about player knowledge not influencing gameplay how do most of you games master the occasional (and thematic) hero vs hero punch up?

Do you ask the player on the higher dex (player A) for a general statement of intent? E.g. “I’m going to somehow attack player B” and then require a reaction from player B; “I abort to a block” 

or does player A say “I’m going to martial strike player B sticking my two Levels with HtH combat, and my 1 overall level in OCV”

To which player B might say “I abort to a martial dodge” (as the attacker’s OCV might be better than his own at this point )

 

[Ninja-Bear]

It’s been awhile since I looked at AoE accurate as in I’m not sure if it’s both unblockable and undodgeable. If it is you could make a super skill with it but I’d also tack unselective if possible or limited if not whereas the defender isn’t hit at DCV 3 which accurate normally applies to but allows target you be hit at his natural DCV.  I’m just using accurate to prevent the use of block and dodge.

[Christopher R Taylor]

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Assuming that you go on a higher DEX than the target and you declare half phase Feint (and get a good roll) your opponent can just Abort to a Dodge - which probably easily negates the Feint mechanic wise, and just seems to nix it thematically,  too.

 

Feints aren't always successful.  Even if the target is fooled, they still can react with a desperation maneuver (aborting their next move).

[Ninja-Bear]

I know that indirect can make a power unblockable so you might have to tack on indirect on the AoE which I’m not sure is legal per se.

[MrAgdesh]

4 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

How does the target know the feint occurred and succeeded?

 

Opponent's action comes up and he Feints.  Dice get rolled.  Depending on the results:

 

 - he tried to lure you in with a fancy maneuver, but you picked up on the attempt and were not lured in; or

 - he lunges forward with his rapier and...misses.

 

The latter is all the target would perceive of a successful feint, so why should the player have any more information than that?

 

EDIT:  Now, when the feinter attacks next phase, perhaps the target gets to make a PER roll to figure out that prior attack was just to lure him in, and gave the feinter an advantage.

 

So the next time he misses, does the target assume it was another feint and Dodge or Block?

 

 

The target knows the Feint occurred and succeeded when he gets hit by the attack. Especially so if the OCV bonus from the Feint was *just* enough to cause him to be hit. 

[MrAgdesh]

3 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Feints aren't always successful.  Even if the target is fooled, they still can react with a desperation maneuver (aborting their next move).

 

Isn't the success determined (a) by the initial Skill vs Skill roll (Feint vs PER) and (b) by actually hitting their DCV?

 

My point was that in response to a player declaring a Feint for an OCV advantage (or, in fact penalty if he fails the roll) his opponent can just abort to a Dodge to cancel that benefit out.

 

The same is true of a surprise manoeuvre;

 

Player 1 (15 DEX): "I use my acrobatics skill to cartwheel across the floor, catch his neck in a scissor lock with my thighs, and execute a Killing Strike!"

 

GM: "Groovy, make an Acrobatics roll and I'll give you a +1 OCV"

 

Player 2 (14 DEX):  "Abort to a Dodge"

 

In both cases Player 2 can easily negate the 'surprise'.

 

 

 

[Christopher R Taylor]

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My point was that in response to a player declaring a Feint for an OCV advantage (or, in fact penalty if he fails the roll) his opponent can just abort to a Dodge to cancel that benefit out.

 

Mostly Correct.  And that's true for you when someone uses that maneuver on you as well.  There is no perfect move that completely causes your opponent to be helpless or unable to respond. 

But it comes at a price: you just sacrificed your next phase entirely, and are at a disadvantage from then on in terms of actions.  

 

But as a GM you should remember that someone cannot abort to dodge something they are unaware of.  A surprise attack almost never will allow anyone to abort to dodge, because they are not even aware there's anything to dodge.  The surprise comes because they are not expecting and do not know the attack is coming, and cannot respond to it unless they have some special ability (danger sense, etc).

[mallet]

Well these type of situation will always crop up when you have two Players fighting each other while sitting at the same table, as they hear everything each other is saying. But when "Player 2" in your example above is an NPC, then the GM can control what the NPC does and decide that they don't know to Abort to Dodge. 

 

Now in normal play, especially in a swashbuckling style game, characters usually are aborting and dodging and moving all over the area, this isn't a bad thing, it is kind of what it should be given the source material. Think the big duel in The Princess Bride. So in this case the other character aborting isn't a bad thing. When they use their next action to Dodge, it means they are not attacking the "Feinter" and the "Feinter" can keep pressing his attack the next Phase. Sooner or later he'll get lucky and land a hit, even if the opponent keeps dodging. 

 

Yes, the Feints become more difficult to succeed the more they are used, but maybe if your campaign is really focused on combat, and this style on combat in general, maybe add different "styles" of Feints that characters can learn as different skills (or maybe sub-skills at 2pts each)

 

Play One - "Oh, you know the Italian Style, do you?"

Player Two - "I learned that when I was still in diapers".

 

Player One switches his sword to his other hand.

 

Player One - "Well then how about the Picard maneuver?" 

 

And the fight continues. Except this time Player One can start Feinting fresh all over again, without any accumulated penalties to his roll, since it is a new style of Feinting. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

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Now in normal play, especially in a swashbuckling style game, characters usually are aborting and dodging and moving all over the area, this isn't a bad thing, it is kind of what it should be given the source material. Think the big duel in The Princess Bride. So in this case the other character aborting isn't a bad thing.

 

If you watch a real fight, 90% of it is footwork, blocking, dodging, feinting, and moving for position.  In role playing games its too often simply two creatures pounding on each other with their most powerful attack until one falls over.  I've pondered long and hard about how to encourage more defensive and creative fighting, including getting more mobility into the game.

[MrAgdesh]

2 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

But it comes at a price: you just sacrificed your next phase entirely, and are at a disadvantage from then on in terms of actions.  

 

But as a GM you should remember that someone cannot abort to dodge something they are unaware of.  A surprise attack almost never will allow anyone to abort to dodge, because they are not even aware there's anything to dodge.  The surprise comes because they are not expecting and do not know the attack is coming, and cannot respond to it unless they have some special ability (danger sense, etc).

 

The economy of actions will lead me on to another thread, sir, following some discussion at our gaming table this morning.  

 

Second point: Isn't that the difference between Surprised and Surprise Move, though? A Surprise Move (which Feint is) does not halve the target's DCV like surprised in combat/out of combat -does, and thus still allows the abort.

 

A halving of the target's DCV might be along the lines of what I'm after - so that an Abort to Dodge is not that great an option all of a sudden. Although then you have the prospect of Abort to Block...

 

I appreciate the input!