specks Posted April 8, 2018 Report Share Posted April 8, 2018 What builds (powers, advantages, etc...) that you may have heard, seen or can think of that would be seen as munchkin or power gaming to some? For example; If I remember the Aid power right you can divide in a certain number of ways as to where the points go. One person in my group sent half the points into his ED and the other half into Aid. The end result was a perpetual motion machine type build!!! I maybe wrong on the interpretation but I didn't see anything written to say it couldn't be built I'd like to see some of the ways players have "twisted" the game to make them the "Ultimate" PC" ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ndreare Posted April 8, 2018 Report Share Posted April 8, 2018 The only build I see get really abused is Focus man. Focus man wants a discount on all his powers, but then complains of the unfairness when the focus is interfered with. i one time had a player suggest that a symbiotic organism living in her abdomen is a focus. When I suggested no, there is no practical way to remove it then it is a special effect the player going pretty hot. Other things come and go, but Focus man or Focus woman is always there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted April 8, 2018 Report Share Posted April 8, 2018 Usable By Other on something the character doesn't have (1m of flight, for instance) and Aid: that power. Then let the UBO go away; they still can fly! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maccabe Posted April 8, 2018 Report Share Posted April 8, 2018 I think that the power AID to itself as you mention was deemed an illegal power some time ago. There are many ways to abuse the system, some of which were actually mentioned in the book. Remember LANDLORD the guy who put all of his points into a base with followers and owned the whole Earth and everyone in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted April 8, 2018 Report Share Posted April 8, 2018 The most munchkined I’ve built-which is legal- was having Desolid and having LS: only when Desolid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sentry0 Posted April 8, 2018 Report Share Posted April 8, 2018 With a system as flexible as HERO there are a plethora of combinations of powers/Advantages/Limitations that could be construed as munchkiny. Some are right in your face like this little gem at a bargain price of 35 AP.... Area Of Effect (1m Radius; +1/4), Armor Piercing (+1/4) for up to 70 Active Points of STR (35 Active Points) Then there's all the myriad of subtle power combinations that players can bring into the game. Sometimes on purpose, sometimes by accident. Balance is a daunting task that requires careful consideration and vigilance on the part of any GM. One wrong move and your game could be in jeopardy. It also requires trust in the players and the players to adhere to the implicit contract between the GM and players which is "I won't mess up your game on purpose if you don't screw my character over". Seems juvenile...but hey, it's all just a game Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher R Taylor Posted April 8, 2018 Report Share Posted April 8, 2018 Quote I think that the power AID to itself as you mention was deemed an illegal power some time ago. For what its worth I asked Steve about that specifically on this board and he said its technically legal but probably would make your GM displeased. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grailknight Posted April 8, 2018 Report Share Posted April 8, 2018 Damage over Time: It's awesome for simulating the crushing damage of being buried and the best way to do poisons but it can really munchkin quickly. Advantage stacking: Plus 1 in advantages on a power is usually balanced, plus 4 or more is usually a monstrosity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted April 8, 2018 Report Share Posted April 8, 2018 Famous last words from a GM you don’t want to hear “I didn’t think it would be that powerful!” ? Hyper-Man, Vanguard and Grailknight 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted April 8, 2018 Report Share Posted April 8, 2018 Aid presently costs 6 points per 1d6, unmodified. Let's say we buy 10d6 of Aid for 60 point, half of which goes to ED and half to the Aid itself. What happens? First phase, spend 6 END and roll 10d6 - let's say it comes up 36. +18 ED (halved is +9), and +18 Aid, so now you have 13d6 Aid. Second phase, spend 8 END and roll 13d6. Assuming an average or above roll, you will add 42 to reach the 78 point maximum. That's another +21 ED (halved is +10, so +19 in total) and another 21 to Aid (so now you have a total of 60 + 18 + 21 = 99 AP, or 16 1/2d6 of Aid, with a 99 point maximum) Maybe you only use 10d6 on the third phase, so only 6 END - rolling 21 to max out at 99 should be pretty easy. So another +10 ED (halved is +5, so +24 in total from 49 Aided AP) and +10 to Aid (now 109 AP, so 18d6, and a 108 maximum). This will be our fourth phase using the Aid, and we reach our 108 maximum. Half of that, 54 points, is enhancing ED (so +27 ED) and the other half boosts Aid (so +9d6 - now 19d6, and a 114 AP cap) Eventually, rounding permitting, we should have reached 120 points Aided, 60 to ED (so we have +30 ED) and 60 to Aid (so we have 120 AP = 20d6 = 120 maximum points Aided). It sure took a lot of attack actions, and a lot of END, to convert the 60 points spent on Aid to +30 ED, didn't it? Maybe +30 ED, Usable by Others, would be more efficient. I suppose if you directed 1/3 of the points to the ability you want to enhance, and 2/3 to the Aid, you might get even higher, but it really doesn't seem worthwhile. You could make the Aid infinite, though - direct all the points to Aid, and now it is unlimited. Purposeless, but unlimited. Pre-6e, when you could add 2 to the limit for every 1 point spent, infinite Aid (or Absorption - I've used that) was possible. Old Man, Mister E and massey 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted April 8, 2018 Report Share Posted April 8, 2018 Cumulative mental powers - 1d6, Telepathy, Cumulative (+1/2), x 64 maximum (+1 1/2) for 15 points. Never question a prisoner again. Slap a few levels of Penetrating on it for added assurance. Make that Mind Control and any downed opponent is your slave in about half an hour. Really, the flexibility of the system makes abusive constructs laughably easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchman Mk. IV Posted April 8, 2018 Report Share Posted April 8, 2018 The answer is both simple and obvious: just say No (or go back to the drawing board). I'd slap those down in about a second and a half. No game-breakers allowed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted April 8, 2018 Report Share Posted April 8, 2018 The question was not "what would you disallow", but "what have you seen with significant potential for abuse". An END drain can be amazingly powerful. 2d6 of Sight Flash linked to a Blast can be highly effective. Back in the day, Dean Shomshak wrote, in the Ultimate Mystic for 4e, on an experiment of any 60 AP attack - what's the most game-disrupting ability you can buy? The winner was a 4d6 Killing Attack, thanks to its volatility I could certainly see a use for pretty much every mechanic in the game, and I am not sure many are incapable of abuse either. As well, a game-breaker in some games is an enhancer in others and irrelevant in still others. With great flexibility comes great responsibility Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted April 8, 2018 Report Share Posted April 8, 2018 Perhaps the question is - what Power, Advantage, or LImitation, can NOT be abused? Are there any? Lucius Alexander Inquiring palindromedaries want to know Mister E, Christopher R Taylor and Hugh Neilson 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
massey Posted April 8, 2018 Report Share Posted April 8, 2018 I always liked Desolidification, Invisible Power Effects, Area Effect, Usable Against Others, Personal Immunity, Affects Desolid. People enter the area and become Desolid. They shoot at you, their attack passes right through. They shoot at you with their Affects Desolid attack, it passes right through you. They've got to shoot you with an Affects Real World power to get any effect. And who buys that if they aren't a Desolid using character? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted April 9, 2018 Report Share Posted April 9, 2018 Aiding Aid + Power 2 isn't illegal, but it will get hit by the law of diminishing returns very quickly, since Aid can only add a maximum of the die roll (i.e. 1D6 Aid can add only up to 6 Active Points to the original Aid) and since Aiding two powers at once is an Advantage, eventually, you won't be able to add enough Aid to get more dice out of it. Also, sometimes an abuse in one game won't be an abuse in another... I mean x32 Duplicates all with Mind Link and a x2 Penetrating KA broke a game I was in (and Unkindness of Ravens was truly unkind...), wouldn't have done much in a different campaign though. But then you get shenanigans like the following: Does Body, Alternate Defense (Hardened Smell Flash Defense) which is perfectly book legal, and utterly ridiculous for 99.99% of all games out there. You can do some seriously weird stuff with the system, on purpose. Just gotta reign it in to play with the Campaign at hand. massey 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted April 9, 2018 Report Share Posted April 9, 2018 10 hours ago, Lucius said: Perhaps the question is - what Power, Advantage, or LImitation, can NOT be abused? Are there any? Lucius Alexander Inquiring palindromedaries want to know Nope. In any given campaign something can be used to abuse the campaign's expectations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted April 9, 2018 Report Share Posted April 9, 2018 1 hour ago, ghost-angel said: Nope. In any given campaign something can be used to abuse the campaign's expectations. I was hoping someone would suggest something, just so I could see if I can munchkinize it. Lucius Alexander The palindromedary thinks I should disabuse myself of that expectation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmjalund Posted April 9, 2018 Report Share Posted April 9, 2018 in v6 Aid Self is almost never worth it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted April 9, 2018 Report Share Posted April 9, 2018 43 minutes ago, dmjalund said: in v6 Aid Self is almost never worth it Okay, this might not be munchkin but I think is worth the points at least. Can't Keep a Good Man Down!: (Total: 24 Active Cost, 5 Real Cost) Aid 2d6 (standard effect: 6 points), Expanded Effect (x2 Characteristics or Powers simultaneously) (STUN and END; +1/2), Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action to reset, Character does not control activation of personal Trigger; Triggered by regaining consciousness; +1/2) (24 Active Points); 3 Charges (-1 1/4), One Use At A Time (-1), Only to Aid Self (-1), Only Restores To Starting Values (-1/2) (Real Cost: 5) After being knocked out and recovering consciousness, the character gets an extra 12 STUN and 30 END automatically. This only applies the first three times in a given day that the character recovers consciousness. If you're getting knocked out more often than that, you must be having a very bad day. Lucius Alexander The palindromedary says give him a chance, he'll probably come up with something more munchkin than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted April 9, 2018 Report Share Posted April 9, 2018 1 hour ago, dmjalund said: in v6 Aid Self is almost never worth it Berserkergang: (Total: 125 Active Cost, 26 Real Cost) Aid OCV, SPD, BOD, STUN, PRE, REC, Combat Skill Levels, Lighting Reflexes 3d6+1 (standard effect: 10 points), Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per Minute; +1), Expanded Effect (x8 Characteristics or Powers simultaneously) (+3 1/2) (110 Active Points); 1 Charge (-2), Only to Aid Self (-1), Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (Berserk; -1) (Real Cost: 22) <b>plus</b> +1 with All Attacks (10 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Minute (-1), Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (Berserk; -1), Linked (Aid; -1/2) (Real Cost: 3) <b>plus</b> Lightning Reflexes (+5 DEX to act first with All Actions) (5 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Minute (-1), Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (Berserk; -1), Linked (Aid; -1/2) (Real Cost: 1) Lucius Alexander Aid palindromedary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted April 9, 2018 Report Share Posted April 9, 2018 Considering only plain vanilla Aid Self - say, 5d6 STR Aid - the character has paid 15 points (30 AP less a -1 limitation) to be able to enhance his STR by 30 points, at the cost of 2 attack actions, 6 END and the fade rate after the end of the turn. But if he can use that Aid just before combat starts, it's a pretty sweet boost. The pricing of Aid in 6e was reviewed specifically in comparison to the cost of just buying the stats - Self Only aid should clearly cost less than buying the stats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted April 10, 2018 Report Share Posted April 10, 2018 Even though it was for only a villain and only -0 limitation, having powers only during a storm I think is cheesy. Stormfront from EfH. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsatow Posted April 10, 2018 Report Share Posted April 10, 2018 15 points of wealth Supervillain wants to take over the world. Heroes encounter his staff. Hero:"What is he paying you?" Staff:"You can't pay enough to make us betray him." Hero:"How about 5 million each plus benefits?" Staff: "Anything you say boss." sentry0 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchman Mk. IV Posted April 11, 2018 Report Share Posted April 11, 2018 4 hours ago, dsatow said: 15 points of wealth Supervillain wants to take over the world. Heroes encounter his staff. Hero:"What is he paying you?" Staff:"You can't pay enough to make us betray him." Hero:"How about 5 million each plus benefits?" Staff: "Anything you say boss." And guaranteed one of them for whom money isn't the prime motivator will scurry off to inform his boss. Ninja-Bear 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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