Power builds/abuses of Hero

[Old Man]

11 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

 

I guess a surgeon can't have a Code vs Killing - I am pretty sure a scalpel is a killing attack, and someone with a CvK could NEVER use a killing attack, right?  Who gets to tell Hippocrates?

 

Dull rusty scalpel.  Problem solved!

[clnicholsusa]

13 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

I guess a surgeon can't have a Code vs Killing - I am pretty sure a scalpel is a killing attack, and someone with a CvK could NEVER use a killing attack, right?  Who gets to tell Hippocrates?

 

What sort of surgeon would only lose a single patient and then refuse to ever operate, again? A failed surgeon.

So, yeah, a surgeon can't have a Code vs Killing.

[Hugh Neilson]

17 hours ago, dsatow said:

 

I would say anything which does 4+ body after defenses would be considered lethal.  Otherwise its just aggravated assault.

 

The challenge is assessing what "defenses" are, or how one can differentiate 4+ BOD from 2 or 3, but it seems like a reasonable benchmark.  That would imply a 3d6 normal attack (6 BOD - 2 PD) or anything over a 1/2d6 KA (3 BOD max) would be a "lethal attack", though.  A character with a code vs killing coming up against an unknown opponent (maybe even a known one - are his defenses up?  could it be someone just dressed up like him?) would have to start off with attacks likely to be ineffectual if the target is a remotely credible threat.

 

9 hours ago, clnicholsusa said:

 

What sort of surgeon would only lose a single patient and then refuse to ever operate, again? A failed surgeon.

So, yeah, a surgeon can't have a Code vs Killing.

 

I don't find that an accurate measure of a C vs K - there is an "intent" factor to be considered.  This line of reasoning would suggest that failure to save a life, despite best efforts, would mean a character with a C v K will never again try to save a life.

 

I think both would regret their failures, but I don't think either would be rendered incapable of continuing to make their best efforts to save lives going forward.

[dsatow]

13 hours ago, clnicholsusa said:

 

What sort of surgeon would only lose a single patient and then refuse to ever operate, again? A failed surgeon.

So, yeah, a surgeon can't have a Code vs Killing.

 

I disagree.  The Code vs. Killing does not mean they will never go out and do their job if they accidentally kill someone.  It means they will anguish and be tortured over the issue.  A surgeon who loses a patient while operating will not trigger their code vs. killing unless the surgeon was at fault in their death.

[dsatow]

4 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

The challenge is assessing what "defenses" are, or how one can differentiate 4+ BOD from 2 or 3, but it seems like a reasonable benchmark.  That would imply a 3d6 normal attack (6 BOD - 2 PD) or anything over a 1/2d6 KA (3 BOD max) would be a "lethal attack", though.  A character with a code vs killing coming up against an unknown opponent (maybe even a known one - are his defenses up?  could it be someone just dressed up like him?) would have to start off with attacks likely to be ineffectual if the target is a remotely credible threat.

 

The 4 Body concept basically assumes a standard 8 Body for a human being (probably 6 for a frail person) is enough to start them dying.  4 Body to a 2x Body location would start someone dying.  A 3d6N attack can do 4 Body to a 2 PD person but the chance of that is 1 in 216 or less than 0.5%.  However, repeated 3d6 attacks would probably be enough to charge attempted manslaughter.  A knife being a lethal weapon against someone without resistant defenses would probably always be considered lethal force.  But using a knife against Ironman probably wouldn't be considered an attempt at lethal force.  In a superhero world, if a supervillain took 1-2 Body after being beaten on by a superhero, that might be excessive use of force or aggravated assault but I doubt they would be charged with attempted murder.

 

Note I say this as a layperson (I'm an engineer, not a lawyer).  So what I am basically writing is what would happen in a fair and just courtroom in my campaign.  Of course, some of my court rooms may not be fair and just ...

 

[BoloOfEarth]

On 4/8/2018 at 11:51 PM, ghost-angel said:

But then you get shenanigans like the following:

Does Body, Alternate Defense (Hardened Smell Flash Defense) which is perfectly book legal, and utterly ridiculous for 99.99% of all games out there.

 

You can do some seriously weird stuff with the system, on purpose. Just gotta reign it in to play with the Campaign at hand.

 

Yep.  It all depends on the campaign.  I introduced an NPC mentalist in my campaign with 3d6 Mental Blast, AVAD (Resistant Mental Defense), Does BODY.  And his first use of it ended up targeting one of the few heroes who had a few points of resistant mental defense.  (Not by deliberate choice on my part, but rather because the hero who grabbed him had rMD.)

 

And as to a Smell Flash, I've actually used that too.  Handy for messing with the hero with Tracking on Smell group.

[BoloOfEarth]

As to a potentially abusive build, I've found that a nice-sized PRE drain, followed by a good Presence Attack, can be pretty darn effective.

 

Rebel Yell (all sonic powers) has a Multipower with the following slot: 

• Infrasonic Dread:  Drain PRE & EGO 4d6, Expanded (+½), AoE 16m Cone (+½), AVAD (Hearing Flash DEF; +0), Half END (+¼); No Range (-½)

Outside the Multipower, he also has:

• I’m The Man:  +30 PRE, Only for Presence Attacks (-1)

I figured it would be great for crowd "control", particularly to cause mass panic and stampeding for the exits for the heroes to deal with.  I didn't anticipate how effective it would be against the heroes themselves, most of whom only had a few points of Hearing Flash Defense and relatively low EGO and PRE (say 13 and 15 respectively).  The team mentalist's high EGO, plus the brick's high Hearing Flash Defense, left them relatively unaffected.  The few others who were in the AoE Cone?  Sucked to be them for a Phase or two.

[Old Man]

That's a good pick.  No one invests much in PRE.

 

Another thing to consider, outside of specific munchkin powers, is those powers that are underrated (if not undercosted).  Characters I create are guaranteed to employ many, if not most, of the following:

 

- Telekinesis.  Incredibly versatile even at low power levels.

- Flight.  Again, extremely useful even without a massive points investment.

- Entangle.  The ultimate nonlethal attack.  Can often be used both offensively and defensively.

- Cumulative Transform.  Turn anything into anything else, given enough time.

- Duplication.  I see this as a cheap way to massively increase SPD.

- Multiform.  It's not for every character, but being able to switch between a combat character and a noncombat character is almost as bad as a VPP.

- Density Increase.  Still a bargain for what you get, as opposed to Growth which has been useless for two editions now.

- One Exotic Sense.  Makes you harder to surprise, and also gives the GM a way to slip you secret info.

 

 

[Hugh Neilson]

7 hours ago, dsatow said:

 

The 4 Body concept basically assumes a standard 8 Body for a human being (probably 6 for a frail person) is enough to start them dying.  4 Body to a 2x Body location would start someone dying.  A 3d6N attack can do 4 Body to a 2 PD person but the chance of that is 1 in 216 or less than 0.5%.  However, repeated 3d6 attacks would probably be enough to charge attempted manslaughter.  A knife being a lethal weapon against someone without resistant defenses would probably always be considered lethal force.  But using a knife against Ironman probably wouldn't be considered an attempt at lethal force.  In a superhero world, if a supervillain took 1-2 Body after being beaten on by a superhero, that might be excessive use of force or aggravated assault but I doubt they would be charged with attempted murder.

 

Note I say this as a layperson (I'm an engineer, not a lawyer).  So what I am basically writing is what would happen in a fair and just courtroom in my campaign.  Of course, some of my court rooms may not be fair and just ...

 

 

I would say C v K as a moral code is looking for "I might risk killing him", so your benchmark is quite reasonable under that model, even if 3d6 might feel a little light.  The fact that he might not be convicted doesn't change his personal ethics.

[Hugh Neilson]

On ‎4‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 9:51 PM, ghost-angel said:

Also, sometimes an abuse in one game won't be an abuse in another... I mean x32 Duplicates all with Mind Link and a x2 Penetrating KA broke a game I was in (and Unkindness of Ravens was truly unkind...), wouldn't have done much in a different campaign though.

 

But then you get shenanigans like the following:

Does Body, Alternate Defense (Hardened Smell Flash Defense) which is perfectly book legal, and utterly ridiculous for 99.99% of all games out there.

 

You can do some seriously weird stuff with the system, on purpose. Just gotta reign it in to play with the Campaign at hand.

 

AoE Penetrating KA also proved very nasty in a game some years back.

 

AVAD was repriced to move the cost up the charts for more uncommon defenses.  I'd call that "Rarer than Rare", so one step higher than  flash defense (not sight or sound), +2, and +1 for Does BOD.  That's a 3d6 Blast, averaging 3 BOD.  You could have had a 2 1/2d6 Penetrating KA, which would be similar in BOD done to most characters.

 

I am, however, a proponent of a simplification that only PD and ED comes in "resistant" and "nonresistant", with all exotic defenses being the same against killing or normal attacks targeting them.  I see no compelling reason for Resistant versions of these defenses.

[TheDarkness]

6 hours ago, BoloOfEarth said:

As to a potentially abusive build, I've found that a nice-sized PRE drain, followed by a good Presence Attack, can be pretty darn effective.

 

Rebel Yell (all sonic powers) has a Multipower with the following slot: 

• Infrasonic Dread:  Drain PRE & EGO 4d6, Expanded (+½), AoE 16m Cone (+½), AVAD (Hearing Flash DEF; +0), Half END (+¼); No Range (-½)

Outside the Multipower, he also has:

• I’m The Man:  +30 PRE, Only for Presence Attacks (-1)

I figured it would be great for crowd "control", particularly to cause mass panic and stampeding for the exits for the heroes to deal with.  I didn't anticipate how effective it would be against the heroes themselves, most of whom only had a few points of Hearing Flash Defense and relatively low EGO and PRE (say 13 and 15 respectively).  The team mentalist's high EGO, plus the brick's high Hearing Flash Defense, left them relatively unaffected.  The few others who were in the AoE Cone?  Sucked to be them for a Phase or two.

This actually is something I prefer for some games, which is there being enough of a spread of power bases that one player or npc can't possibly be highly capable against all of them.

 

Not so much to have some inroad to screwing the players, but as a given from the start, the knowledge that for the areas you cannot deal with, you have a teammate who can, and if your team doesn't, then your team finds allies that can or finds clever ways to avoid the problem. Also, to foster team unity, to add some suspense and make it so that that characters who have their own niche are seen by their teammates as a protection for the group at the same level of the brick at the forefront, or the energy blaster who enables them to deal with range.

 

Additionally, rational world building helps this. I'm not sure there would ever be a world where mind control is not heavily resented. The hero with it may be powerful against some, but they are going to need to be subtle in their use of it, and they are definitely going to need friends. The villain with it is likely to have a lot of enemies if they don't have some sort of guidelines themselves. Socially, it is the nuclear option. It's very possible to set up a preexisting custom regarding what is fair game, because mentallists might need to sleep sometimes, and some bricks might look forward to waking them up by tossing them into space. This also sets up a real threat value for the truly evil mind control person who the team learns from the news is not playing by the rules.

[ghost-angel]

On 4/27/2018 at 7:18 PM, Hugh Neilson said:

 

AoE Penetrating KA also proved very nasty in a game some years back.

 

AVAD was repriced to move the cost up the charts for more uncommon defenses.  I'd call that "Rarer than Rare", so one step higher than  flash defense (not sight or sound), +2, and +1 for Does BOD.  That's a 3d6 Blast, averaging 3 BOD.  You could have had a 2 1/2d6 Penetrating KA, which would be similar in BOD done to most characters.

 

I am, however, a proponent of a simplification that only PD and ED comes in "resistant" and "nonresistant", with all exotic defenses being the same against killing or normal attacks targeting them.  I see no compelling reason for Resistant versions of these defenses.

 

I agree - I see no compelling reason for Resistant Flash Defense either, for any game I've ever been in.

 

But a universal system can't rule out that concept outright - somewhere, some game, has a use for Resistant Flash Defenses, and they should be allowed in the RAW for that reason.

 

Building a campaign isn't just what you use from the book, it's what you don't use too.

[Hugh Neilson]

Actually, pre-6e, Normal Characteristic Maxima and DEX, No Figured.  Once you limit it, the cost doubling goes away, and -1/2 on normal price DEX reduces the cost by the same 1 point you spend to buy the SPD back up.

 

So if I want an NCM Fantasy Elf with 30 DEX and 4 SPD, I buy +20 DEX for 90 points, or +5 DEX (15), +15 DEX, No Figured (30) and +1.5 SPD (15) for 60 points.

[eepjr24]

On 4/30/2018 at 9:13 PM, ghost-angel said:

 

I agree - I see no compelling reason for Resistant Flash Defense either, for any game I've ever been in.

 

But a universal system can't rule out that concept outright - somewhere, some game, has a use for Resistant Flash Defenses, and they should be allowed in the RAW for that reason.

 

Building a campaign isn't just what you use from the book, it's what you don't use too.

I played in an "Ultimate" gladiator type contest where we would show up with 750 point characters and battle it out. You basically had to have some defense against anything you could think of, so multiple hardened flash defenses were pretty much a given (sometimes even on unusual senses). This was in 4e I believe, so no Damage Negation yet, but DR was common as were a large variety of NND's. They generally either ended up over within a turn or just decided that it would take hours to play and called it a tie. Low power attacks with +3-5 in advantages were common (x4 AP, x6 Penetrating, etc).

 

- E

[massey]

4 minutes ago, eepjr24 said:

I played in an "Ultimate" gladiator type contest where we would show up with 750 point characters and battle it out. You basically had to have some defense against anything you could think of, so multiple hardened flash defenses were pretty much a given (sometimes even on unusual senses). This was in 4e I believe, so no Damage Negation yet, but DR was common as were a large variety of NND's. They generally either ended up over within a turn or just decided that it would take hours to play and called it a tie. Low power attacks with +3-5 in advantages were common (x4 AP, x6 Penetrating, etc).

 

- E

 

I played in one of those, almost exactly as you describe.  I bought my guy so that all of his senses Cost End to use.  The GM ruled that he couldn't be Flashed unless he was actively using the sense.  He had 75% Damage Reduction for Physical, Energy, and Mental.  He had a decent amount of double hardened resistant PD and ED, a lot of Power Defense and Mental Defense, and a huge Affects Desolid RKA with like +50 OCV.  He would have been the winner, except some guy brought out a character who used.the Spirit Rules from Hero Almanac/Hero Almanac 2 (I forget which one).