Doubt about the magic system

[iena]

Dears,
I’m looking for some support because I’m going to start a really titanic did (at least to me): I’m going to create starting from zero a complete fantasy setting using the 6th edition of Hero System… Furthermore, I have to involve my current RPG party that don’t speak English at all and explain all the rules…
Anyway, my main doubt is about the magic system. I know that “Fantasy Hero” handbook proposes a lot of different magic systems but you have to understand that I don’t have time to test the system…Once I have implemented it, I must to be sure that it works and, most important, that it is balanced.
The only magic system I know very well is the one of D&D (3rd or 5th edition). In this system the wizards have two important limitations: 1) the power level of the spell based on the character level 2) the number of spells castable per day.
In the magic systems presented in the handbook “Fantasy Hero” these limitations seem not be implemented (at least in my opinion). The mandatory roll on the skill “Power: Magic” seems not to be enough… If during the character creation the player put a lot of CP in this skill the result could be that the wizard could cast one single but very powerful spell (and this can be really unbalancing).
Do you have introduced some house rule to limit the CP expendable for the skill “power: Magic”??
Second point: how to limit the spells per day?? Even if a spell can cost Endurance, the recovery phase would virtually allow the wizard to cast an infinite number of spells per day. Is this acceptable for you? I repeat once again, my only reference is the D&D where, with the exclusion of the cantrips, an infinite number of spells would be a nightmare. 
Thanks for your help and please excuse me for my poor English.

[Doc Democracy]

Iena 

 

There are, as typical in HERO, a lot of ways to implement this kind of stuff.  It is for you to sort it out and write it up. 

 

One example, and I stress that, for limiting the points ploughed into Magic Skill might be to implement a system in the game world where folk are inducted into magical colleges, master to apprentice, overseen by one (or many) magical college.  The induction into the arts means that the apprentice must satisfy in-game requirements as well as spending character points for skill levels.  This would show that the apprentice is delving into the mysteries, one after another.  You might do that in-game with a series of quests that the wizard must undertake (and persuade his fellows to do them when other, more lucrative opportunities abound) or you might do it by putting pre-requisites on levels on the Magic Skill such as needing 14- in Arcane Mythic Writing before you can purchase +1 in Magic.  A series of pre-requisites means that the player needs to spend a lot of points broadening out the magician to increase his game effectiveness (though those broad skills should be drawn out by the GM to make the points spent worthwhile).

 

As for limiting the number of spells, that is really all in how the spells are drawn up.  I will provide one possibility. You can put a prerequisite that a spell must be memorised through evening or morning study to before it can be used.  You can provide the magician with a free END reserve (I personally dont like charging characters for things that limit them) with a set amount of END within it that recharges once per day (but only if the character gets a good night's rest).  The player can then decide which spells he wishes to memorise, up to the limit of the END in the reserve.  The spells should be bought such that they can only be used with END from the reserve, not personal END from the character.

 

You can use this kind of thing to beef up the drama too.  A wizard "might" be able to push END into the reserve by spending BODY, again if you decide to build it that way.  Though I would make this a side effect of BODY drain where the recovery of that BODY is hugely delayed - to ensure it cannot simply be fixed by a judicious healing spell. Everything is possible if you think hard enough about how you want the mechanics to work.

 

Do the thinking, use D&D as the basis and then think of all the things you wished had been included in that system and you can bake them into yours.  When you have the detail, come back and people here will give you at least one, if not more, way to get what you want from your magic system.

 

 

Doc

 

PS: your English is INFINITELY better than my Italian, kudos.

[sentry0]

50 minutes ago, iena said:

Do you have introduced some house rule to limit the CP expendable for the skill “power: Magic”??

 

You could always limit players to a specific point cap to start, say 50-60 active points.

 

Quote

Second point: how to limit the spells per day?? Even if a spell can cost Endurance, the recovery phase would virtually allow the wizard to cast an infinite number of spells per day. Is this acceptable for you? I repeat once again, my only reference is the D&D

 

INT/3 spells per day or INT/5 seems standard for people looking to limit spells per day.  I personally don't have a problem with casters being able to cast spells just using END as the limiting factor.  Your melee players can throw around 2D6 killing attacks all day long too but I know some people really like to restrict spellcasting like D&D.

 

Quote

Thanks for your help and please excuse me for my poor English.

 

As Doc said, your English is way better than my Italian and I've been to your lovely country 2x in my life.

[Lord Liaden]

Welcome, iena! It's always nice to be reminded that Herophiles transcend national and linguistic borders.

 

You have just encountered a major philosophical difference between Hero System, and games like D&D. The latter try to build balance into their game system at the mechanical level, by establishing firm defaults for how things work. While that makes everything clear, it limits the creativity of people who want to play something not supported by those defaults. On the other hand Hero aspires to give players and Game Masters the freedom to create or simulate almost anything they want, the way they want.

 

However, the rule books repeatedly assert that just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should do it. As Game Master for your group it's well within your rights to make judgements on a case-by-case basis for what would be unbalancing to your game. If a player wants to sink all their Character Points into building one ultra-powerful spell, or raising their Power Skill roll very high, you should feel free to rule that would not fit with the kind of game you're running; or they can build such a spell, but it will have plenty of Limitations restricting its use; or the PC will have to gain more Experience to justify having bought their Skill roll to such a level. You can set maximums on Skill Rolls, or Active Points or Damage Class for spells, or rule that certain Powers or Modifiers aren't allowed in your world, or that other Modifiers are mandatory for all spells.

 

This obviously puts more onus on the GM to enforce standards, but that's the trade-off for Hero's flexibility and comprehensiveness. Mind you, the rule books do offer guidelines and suggestions, and warnings as to which abilities might be problematic to include.

[Hugh Neilson]

To flip this around, if I want to play D&D, I play D&D.

 

But "only X spells per day" is limiting, or not, depending on how many times in a day one needs to cast spells.  In a game expecting a dozen or more encounters in a day of dungeon crawling, limited spells per day is actually limiting.  If the game will see one encounter in a day, two on a really unusual day, being restricted to casting a dozen spells a day is nowhere near as limiting.

[Ninja-Bear]

I would look at just dropping the required magic skill roll and add charges.  I think perhaps a small limitation also stating either you need the required rest or prayers also (-1/4 max).

[massey]

First, figure out how you want your magic system to function.  Don't worry about game rules, just think about how your fantasy world will look.  How do wizards/sorcerers/whoever use their abilities?  Do you have wise men who use magic so quiet and subtle that people aren't sure if it exists?  Do you have video game wizards who shoot glowing energy all the time?  Can your magicians create massive effects that wipe out armies?  Or are they just warriors who have different flavored attack powers?

 

Visualize it in your head, and then that will determine the right way to do it.

 

Personally, if I wanted to play D&D, I'd just play D&D.  That magic system works reasonably well enough for that game, even though there are still problems with it.  If I wanted to play Fantasy Hero, I'd probably try to have characters with abilities I couldn't mimic in D&D.

[bluesguy]

Hi,

Glad you joined us.  First of all I think you are asking some very good questions about how to balance a custom magic system.  I did this when I created my campaign world of Nyonia.  Here are the questions I asked myself about magic in Nyonia:

 

1. How 'magical' is Nyonia?  I wanted a world where magic was unique and not rare.  This drove a decision that anyone could learn some magic.
2. How 'unique' is magic in Nyonia?  One thing wanted to avoid is the 'generic wizard'.  To handle this I decided (GM fiat back filled with in world logic later) that each race and culture would have a unique kind of magic.  Once you started to learn magic from your race or culture that was the only kind of magic you could learn.  So some cultures are very nature oriented and have a lot of nature oriented spells.  Other cultures are more interested in commerce and so they have a number of spells which increase their ability to sell things for a profit and buy things on the cheap.  One culture and 'bottle magic' - basically they can create potions and some limited magical devices/items.  Another culture can enhance and dispel magic.  One culture is known for their battle magic (think lightning bolts and fireballs and other big effect spells - downside is that if you ask them to take out the guy in the middle of the village they will tell you - no problem you don't mind if the village is on fire afterwards).  A couple of cultures have enhancements that make warriors even more powerful.
3. How powerful can a mage be in Nyonia?  I decided to divide magical ability into two types of people. 

                   Anyone can learn a few spells (see #2 for culture/race limitation).  This is all based on the idea that anyone can learn to play a guitar (believe I taught myself at the age of 30),

                   but you won't ever be a world renowned guitarist.

                   These kinds of mages have a decent possibility of having spells fail during casting and causing the caster problems. 

                   They are limited in the maximum active points per spell.  No spell can be in a power framework (Multipower or Variable Power Pool).  Bunch of other limitations.

   OR

                  People born with a talent for magic.  These are the people who have a natural ability to do magic.  They have a large VPP and they know all the spells available to their race/culture (see #2).

                  The spells can be at a higher active point level.  If they fail their spell roll bad things don't happen besides a missed roll.

4. Magic items - Aside from potions/scrolls, magic items are rare.

One of things I did was buy as many of the Hero Spell books as I could afford at the time (and the Hero Designer files to help managing spell 'books' per race).  I ended up getting Fantasy Hero Grimoire and  Fantasy Hero Grimoire II (both 5th edition but easily converted to 6th edition).  I then build each races/cultures spells from the spells I found in those books.  Over time I have bought more Hero 'spell books' and expanded the options for each race/culture.

 

The end results can be found here:

• Nyonian Magic - This is world view of magic
• Hero mechanics around Nyonia Magic

Everyone in my game knows that as the GM I can adjust any aspect of the game (magic, racial templates) whenever something seems unbalanced.

 

My next post will point you to some additional resources and ideas on how to handle this.

 

 

 

[Lucius]

18 hours ago, iena said:

Dears,
I’m looking for some support because I’m going to start a really titanic did (at least to me): I’m going to create starting from zero a complete fantasy setting using the 6th edition of Hero System… Furthermore, I have to involve my current RPG party that don’t speak English at all and explain all the rules…
Anyway, my main doubt is about the magic system. I know that “Fantasy Hero” handbook proposes a lot of different magic systems but you have to understand that I don’t have time to test the system…Once I have implemented it, I must to be sure that it works and, most important, that it is balanced.

 

That IS a titanic deed.

 

 

18 hours ago, iena said:

The only magic system I know very well is the one of D&D (3rd or 5th edition). In this system the wizards have two important limitations: 1) the power level of the spell based on the character level 2) the number of spells castable per day.
In the magic systems presented in the handbook “Fantasy Hero” these limitations seem not be implemented (at least in my opinion). The mandatory roll on the skill “Power: Magic” seems not to be enough… If during the character creation the player put a lot of CP in this skill the result could be that the wizard could cast one single but very powerful spell (and this can be really unbalancing).

 

That Skill Roll is more limiting than it looks. It takes a penalty based on the Active Points in the spell. So it a spell has 75 Active Points, that's a -8 penalty. The character could have a Magic Skill of, say, 16 or less, and then find that to actually cast that spell they have only an 8 or less chance.

 

 

18 hours ago, iena said:

Do you have introduced some house rule to limit the CP expendable for the skill “power: Magic”??
Second point: how to limit the spells per day?? Even if a spell can cost Endurance, the recovery phase would virtually allow the wizard to cast an infinite number of spells per day. Is this acceptable for you? I repeat once again, my only reference is the D&D where, with the exclusion of the cantrips, an infinite number of spells would be a nightmare. 
Thanks for your help and please excuse me for my poor English.

 

Well, one reason infinite spells in D&D would be a nightmare is that the spells are so powerful. But no one has a problem with a warrior swinging a sword a thousand times in a day. (well, the monsters getting a sword swung at them might have a problem, but who cares what they think?) If the spells are not that much more powerful than a warrior's abilities, there is less reason to put big restrictions on them.

 

With a batch of people new to Hero, you will probably be creating the characters anyway. So you can control how powerful the spells are and how they work.

 

What I did, was require spellcasters to buy an END Reserve, renamed "Mana Pool." You can put whatever Limitations you like on the RECovery of that END Reserve; including only refilling once a day. I ALSO put the "Requires a Roll" on the END Reserve and NOT on the spells; this has the effect of still requiring a roll to cast the spell (because you can't cast the spell without spending END, and it has to come from that Reserve) but the roll is not so cripplingly penalized because it's hard to spend enough Active Points of END to invoke the penalty. (no penalty at up to 25 END.) When the spellcaster is out of Mana, they have to stop casting until they replenish it (however you define as a way to replenish - rest, prayer, study, doing good deeds, sacrificing small animals, whatever.)

 

But if you are looking for a way to put an upper limit on how many spells can be cast per day, one thing you can do (perhaps in combination with the Mana Pool) is put the Charges Limitation on the MAGIC SKILL itself - you only get so many rolls on that Skill in a given day. Alternatively, you can put a Requires a Roll: Burnout Limitation on the Skill, so that rolling too high "burns out" the Skill and it can't be used the rest of the day. That makes it less predictable as to when the magic will run dry - whether that's good or bad is up to what you think.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Summon Palindromedary

 

[IndianaJoe3]

6 hours ago, massey said:

First, figure out how you want your magic system to function.  Don't worry about game rules, just think about how your fantasy world will look.  How do wizards/sorcerers/whoever use their abilities?  Do you have wise men who use magic so quiet and subtle that people aren't sure if it exists?  Do you have video game wizards who shoot glowing energy all the time?  Can your magicians create massive effects that wipe out armies?  Or are they just warriors who have different flavored attack powers?

 

This is really the key here. You decide how you want magic to work, and then fit the game mechanics to that.

[Spence]

 

I know that some (many) may disagree with what I am about to say.

 

But Fantasy Hero does not have a magic system that can be "played out of the box".  Fantasy Hero does not work that way.  It gives you the tools to build a tailored magic system to your world.

 

You decide how magic will work and then build it and tell the players what the rules are.

 

Hero System as a whole is not like most of the RPG's out there. 

The way I usually explain it is this way.  

 

D&D, Pathfinder are like a Play Station or X-Box game.  A complete programmed game with everything designed on a disc.

Hero System is like the programming language used to make the Play Station or X-Box game.  It gives you RPG "Code" that you use to make your game. 

 

Fantasy Hero has examples of magic spells and advice on creating a magic system.  But it does not have a complete ready to use comprehensive spell system. 

 

 

 

[bluesguy]

Here are a couple of additional resources:

 

• Killer Shrike's site with a number of fully laid out magic systems - This site provides a number of really good options for magic systems that are not DnD like.  He also provides a way to create a DnD magic system using Hero.
• Valdorian Age - 5e setting book has a unique magic system based on 'favors' that spell casters have to make with their patron deity/demon/otherworldly source
• Narosia Sea of Tears - 6e has a unique magic system divided between arcane and divine

[Lord Liaden]

2 hours ago, Spence said:

Fantasy Hero has examples of magic spells and advice on creating a magic system.  But it does not have a complete ready to use comprehensive spell system.

 

If we're talking about a single system with a large number of prebuilt spells, which all share the same mechanical approach and explanatory philosophy, then no, there are no examples of that in the Fantasy Hero genre book or Fantasy Hero Complete. Hero Games does have the Hero System Grimoire with a very wide selection of spells, most of which could slot into any of the FH example magic systems with little effort. The Valdorian Age,  Tuala Morn and The Atlantean Age include very distinctive magic systems and spells using the Hero toolkit, although those are for Fifth Edition.

[Ninja-Bear]

Iena one suggestion that I’ve seen before about buying spells easier is setting a straight cost. Say a spell is worth 7 pts for 1 chg, instead of recalculating cost at 4 chgs a day, you could either 1) use the 5pt doubling rule or 2) just make the character pay 7 pts for each additional chg. Something to consider.

[Pattern Ghost]

I'm going to second Killer Shrike's site, and I'd start with a look through his Vancian magic section (D&D uses a Vancian magic system):

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/MagicSystems/Vancian.aspx

[LoneWolf]

Using the D&D style restrictions in a Fantasy Hero game is not a good idea.  They are two very different games that play completely differently.  There are already some limitations built into the system that address some of the things you are worried about.  Fantasy Hero actually has less of an imbalance between casters and non-casters than other systems.

 

The first thing to consider is that every point spent on magic skill and spells is a point not available for other things.  In the hero systems you have to pay for everything.  That means the typical warrior is going to have better physical stats, more skill levels and probably more skills.  The caster will have a slight advantage in versatility, but not as much as you think.  Talents allow even a non-caster to pick up special abilities.  Things like Weapon Master, Combat Luck and Danger Sense give the warriors a way  become very good at what they do.

 

Second thing is that in Fantasy Hero equipment does not cost any points.  The warrior does not have to pay for his armor or weapons which is a huge advantage.  The spell caster on the other hand has to pay CP for each spell.  A warrior with full plate, a great sword and long bow is getting the equivalent of an extra real 35pts for free.

 

Combining both of these factors means that the warrior is going to probably do a lot better in combat than the wizard.  I can easily get my archer up a 3d6 killing attack and be able to easily hit most targets.  The wizard is going to be hard pressed to match that directly.  What he will have is unusual attacks and a lot of out of combat utility. 

 

Spells also usually have a lot of limitations on them.  While this does reduce the cost it also makes them easier to counter.  Requiring mandatory limitations on spells is the best way to limit casters.  In addition to having certain required limitations having a minimum amount of limitations is a good idea.  For example you could require all spells to have a minimum of a -2 limitation.  That would mean that all spells have to have an additional -1 ½ limitation in addition to the required skill.

[Doc Democracy]

I do have to disagree again.  Fantasy HERO is absolutely neutral as to the kind of magic system you decide to use in your game.  If Vancian style magic is what turns you on, then do it.  If it is a poor deal for players, they will not pay the points for it and magic will be rare.  As for free kit, I saw nothing in the original post that magic would be incompatible with weapons and armour...

 

of course, a true wizard may disdain physical power but that was not part of the costings folk were talking about.

 

what you might get is fighter types that know a few charms rather than full-on wizards, more like fafhrd and the grey mouser.  Not a terrible outcome...

Edited April 30, 2018 by Doc Democracy
spelling

[Funk Thompson]

For "leveling" spells, you could set up AP brackets - 1 to 15 AP = "1st Level," 16 - 25 AP = "2nd Level," 26 - 40 AP = "3rd Level" and so on.

 

Then, tie the use of said spells to the skill used for magic.  Assuming the typical -1 to the skill roll per 10 AP, you'd want at least a 15- "spellcasting" roll before reliably casting "3rd level spells" that will have a -3 to -4 penalty on the roll.

 

If you want vancian magic, then add charges to your spells, using the 'recovers under limited circumstances' option for recoverable charges.  'Limited circumstances' being "requires X time of rest and preparation."  You can either put the charges on the framework overall (ie. you can cast "x spells per day" but which spell you cast matters not) or you can put them on each individual slot (which better represents 'memorizing spells.')  

I'd recommend a VPP over a Multipower if you go with the charges per slot option; that way the pool cost on the VPP is the limit to how many spells they can prepare / memorize.

 

I use a somewhat similar VPP for my Steampunk Fantasy HERO setting, and it works very well to give spellcasters both flexibility and limitations on what / how much they can do.

[Scott Ruggels]

What I did, was require spellcasters to buy an END Reserve, renamed "Mana Pool." You can put whatever Limitations you like on the RECovery of that END Reserve; including only refilling once a day. I ALSO put the "Requires a Roll" on the END Reserve and NOT on the spells; this has the effect of still requiring a roll to cast the spell (because you can't cast the spell without spending END, and it has to come from that Reserve) but the roll is not so cripplingly penalized because it's hard to spend enough Active Points of END to invoke the penalty. (no penalty at up to 25 END.) When the spellcaster is out of Mana, they have to stop casting until they replenish it (however you define as a way to replenish - rest, prayer, study, doing good deeds, sacrificing small animals, whateve

 

Here's an idea if you want to up the stakes.  Proceed with the mana pool, and have a magic skill roll to tap the mana pool.  However if they blow the roll, the END cost comes off the caster's end not the Mana Pool.  Recovery is as normal, for both the caster, and the manna pool.  Zero manna in the mana pool, but it does allow the caster in dire circumstances to whip off a few spells before they fall down. (and get captured by the baddies for their nefarious purposes)

[GoldenAge]

I'm putting together a guideline for magic use in our 9 Realms of Epoch FH 6e game... I've gone this far... Any thoughts?
(I realize that there are some edit mistakes, they will be fixed in later editions.)

 

9 Realms Magic(sm).pdf

Edited August 10, 2023 by GoldenAge

[Hugh Neilson]

First off, I really like this presentation. It shows how viable a game based on the Hero system is. The mechanics are referenced, but behind the scenes.

 

The one item that stuck out for me was the Attunement rules - this seems like it will hold all Mundane characters out of using magic items.  Unless the intent is that all characters will have magic affinity that grows as the character gains experience, this seems problematic.

 

Not sure how I feel about "no AP cap in frameworks".  How is the VPP Control cost calculated if we ditch the AP cap? Also, a spell with long-lasting or far-reaching effects that can be cast outside of combat becomes a lot easier to access.  I can pile on Gestures, Incantations, Concentration, Extra Time (or take extra time for skill roll bonuses), 1 charge (do I need it more than once a day?), etc. to make access to those spells a lot easier.  I'm thinking of effects like slow fade Aid or Teleportation.  In fact, even raising the dead, the example wizard's goal, becomes a lot easier if I am prepared to require Extra Time of 1 hour and spend a week or more casting it for skill roll bonuses...

 

I've also never liked "buying this up requires special GM permission".   All point use is subject to GM oversight.  If it's tough to buy up Magical Affinity after the game starts, then I'm incented to sacrifice all other Build aspects to max that out at the start, instead of letting it grow as the character grows.  It's already a pretty pricy Power Skill at 3 points per +1.

 

The Critical Fail also seems very non-variable.  SMACK - you take some damage and an extra effect. Even if you could only fail on an 18, it's the same result as if you could only succeed on a 3 and rolled a 14.

 

Minor issues, though - the overall feel seems pretty solid.  A slate of Orders would be essential to a vibrant and diverse campaign, but that seems to be the expectation anyway. Or the players contribute to worldbuilding with their own Orders.

Edited August 10, 2023 by Hugh Neilson

[GoldenAge]

Oops... The Attunement problem is mostly caused by an incorrect example that made it into the document. My bad. I've worked it out thusly:
 

Arcane Artifact Creation

 

1. Determine what it is.

·      If an item uses magic in any way, it is an Arcane Artifact

·      To adhere to the Attunement Rule, all Arcane Artifacts must be purchased under the Focus subsection Applicability as a Restricted Universal Focus (FH pg. 164), reflecting the restriction that Arcane Artifacts may only be utilized by Arcane characters that share a Caste of Reality.

2. Determine the Arcane Artifact’s Order

·      Be sure to include the Order’s Primary Caste(s) (Mind/Body/Spirit). This will determine the Arcane energy needed to attune to the Arcane Artifact.

o   Example: Mitttigan’s Blade of 1000 Cuts, an arming tsword that magically adds extra attacks, would be of the Body Caste, while Silvia’s Scepter of Séances, a wand that controls minds and summons ghosts, would be of both the Mind and Spirit Casts.

·      Arcane Artifacts may be linked to unlimited Orders of Magic. However, it is more customary that the Arcane Artifact come from a few or even a single tradition of magic. A character of the same Order of magic may receive an Order Bonus when Attuning to the Arcane Artifact.

·      Artifacts not linked to any order of magic are considered innately magical and should be built using the Advantage, INNATE MAGIC (+1/2) Arcane Artifacts that have been constructed with the Innate Magic Advantage fall under the purview of the Order of Innate Magic. This Order does not have any cost associated with it and does not provide any Order Bonus. Its primary function is to allow inherently magical entities to be classified as Arcane.

 

Arcane Artifact Creation Shorthand

·      Build a Power with the Focus Limitation

o   ALL Arcane Artifacts must be Focuses and include RESTRICTED UNIVERSAL APPLICABILITY (+0) except as otherwise noted (see Innate below)

o   Restricted Universal Applicability may be added to an Arcane Artifact multiple times. Example: First to fulfill the Arcane Order Requirement, again for Dwarves only, again for Bartenders only, and again only if they know the secret command word… etc.)

·      If it comes from a specific Order of Magic, define said order. 

o   Arcane Artifacts with Restricted Universal Applicability must be Attuned.

o   To Attune an Arcane character must make a Magic Affinity Roll.

o   Order Bonuses may be applied to the Magic Affinity Roll if Order(s) are shared between the Arcane character and the Arcane Artifact.

o   Complementary Skills and Skill Modifier bonuses (extra time, study, help from friends, etc.) may be added to the Magic Affinity Roll (6E1 pg. 58)

§  NOTE: The Base time to Attune is 1 Turn.

·      If it has NO ORDER (meaning anyone can use it), add the Advantage INNATE MAGIC (+1/2)

o   The Innate Magic Advantage is the 9 Realms alternative to the Advantages Always On (considered advantageous), Persistent, and 0 Endurance (6E1, pgs. 128, 334, 347, 367).

-----

The Critical Miss penalty of 1d6 AVALD + a roll on the Crit Chart was included to reduce the chance that less experienced mages would attempt to cast large spells. A beginning character's base Magic Affinity Roll is usually 8- to 13- due to the expense (a 14- costs 12 AP for a single base Magic Affinity). Casters will also want/need to buy Orders of Magic to add bonuses to their base Magic Affinity Rolls. Generally, a caster will have no more than a +2 to +8 on his Magic Affinity Roll after purchasing Order Bonuses but Order bonuses can be increased over time with XP. As time goes by, he can increase his Order Bonus (immerse himself into his Order or discovering other Orders), making larger Magic Affinity Rolls easier to achieve.

Since spells can be purchased at any AP level (no caps) a character can build a spell that will grow in effectiveness as the character adds XP to his Order Bonuses.

Example:
Fireball - 8d6 RKA AoE 18m Radius. - 240 Active Points (wow, that's why there's no cap in frameworks!)
To cast this spell for its full effect would incur a -24 to the casters Magic Affinity Roll (not gonna happen for poor little Jimmy the Prestidigitator who is a part of the FIRE Order and only has a +3 Order Bonus. Not even a full day of ritual casting (gaining him an additional +7) will help. If he tries anyway it'll hurt, and maybe even kill him.

However, he very well COULD cast a smaller version, say 2d6 AoE 8" radius = 45 AP (-4 to cast). Since he has an Order Bonus of +3 and a Body Aspect of 12- Jimmy would need an 11- to successfully cast his fireball on his Action Phase (casting is a 1/2 phase attack Action). If he ritualized the spell and cast it after a full Turn, he'd get a +1 casting bonus for time (per 6E Time Chart - a minute's prep would get Jimmy a +2, an hour a +3 and if he got help from another FIRE Order mage (or any Arcane with the Body Aspect) he could get additional bonuses).

Over time, Jimmy becomes JIM THE WIZARD and has invested a great deal of XP into his Order, achieving a +12 Fire Order Bonus. Now JIM could easily cast that little 2d6 RKA 8m radius Fireball (needing an 18- on 3d6). He could even attempt a 5d6 RKA 8m radius Fireball (needing a 12- to successfully cast the spell). If he's fighting an army of Goblins he could cast a 3d6 18m (the max radius at which the spell is purchased) needing a 15- to successfully cast the spell on his Action Phase = BOOM! Sure, he has a chance to fail, but magic is Chaos and 3d6 HERO rolls naturally provide a bell curve, increasing his chance of success.

It's all intended to scale up as XP is gained and applied to Order Bonuses.

Thanks for taking a look! Very helpful!

Edited August 10, 2023 by GoldenAge

[Doc Democracy]

I have just flicked through this @GoldenAge and I think it looks thoroughly professional.  Would not be disappointed if I paid for this.  If the content is half as good it will be worth reading.

[Duke Bushido]

What Hugh said.

 

But mostly I just wanted to add a little music:

 

Necromamce if you want to-

You can bring dead threads to life....

Some threads stay dead when they are dead, but--

They're not my favorite kind....

 

 

 

 

 

[Hugh Neilson]

4 hours ago, GoldenAge said:

The Critical Miss penalty of 1d6 AVALD + a roll on the Crit Chart was included to reduce the chance that less experienced mages would attempt to cast large spells. A beginning character's base Magic Affinity Roll is usually 8- to 13- due to the expense (a 14- costs 12 AP for a single base Magic Affinity). Casters will also want/need to buy Orders of Magic to add bonuses to their base Magic Affinity Rolls. Generally, a caster will have no more than a +2 to +8 on his Magic Affinity Roll after purchasing Order Bonuses but Order bonuses can be increased over time with XP. As time goes by, he can increase his Order Bonus (immerse himself into his Order or discovering other Orders), making larger Magic Affinity Rolls easier to achieve.

Since spells can be purchased at any AP level (no caps) a character can build a spell that will grow in effectiveness as the character adds XP to his Order Bonuses.

Example:
Fireball - 8d6 RKA AoE 18m Radius. - 240 Active Points (wow, that's why there's no cap in frameworks!)
To cast this spell for its full effect would incur a -24 to the casters Magic Affinity Roll (not gonna happen for poor little Jimmy the Prestidigitator who is a part of the FIRE Order and only has a +3 Order Bonus. Not even a full day of ritual casting (gaining him an additional +7) will help. If he tries anyway it'll hurt, and maybe even kill him.

 

So, how does the player get that Fireball into his VPP or Multipower?  I'm still not clear how that VPP works with an unlimited max AP - why buy a control cost at all?

 

If he has a 60 point pool in a VPP (for a 150 point character, even 60 points invested with no control cost is a lot), he needs -5 in limitations to get that 240 AP spell in.  He can't possibly benefit from the full 240 AP, though.  He'll need the same -5 in limitations to squish it into a Multipower, but now he also pays either 6 points for a fixed slot or 12 for a flexible slot. He's paid for a ton of AP that he can't actually use.  Seems pretty frustrating for the player.