Skill-based magic

[massey]

As far as the use for Power Skill: Magic, my post was kind of stream-of-consciousness and I changed my mind on things a bit as I was typing.  At first I was thinking that Power Skill: Magic would just let you do basic stuff.  As the post developed, I thought that maybe it should be more important.  Maybe you can use it as a complementary skill for your more specialized magics?  Or maybe the Knowledge Skill spell fields are far more limited in spell selection?

 

With 19 points, let's say Bob has 30 spells.  But a warrior could nearly take +4 OCV with everything for that price.  And the spells are as balanced as you want to make them.  Let's take a look at some standard D&D style spells.  I'm going to assign some random skill roll penalties (I'm not going to stat out each spell in Hero, this is total guesstimating).  I don't think having access to these would be overpowered.

 

KS: Magic 13-

Detect Magic, -0; Detect Poison, -0; Dancing Lights, -0;
Mage Hand, -1; Prestidigitation, -1; Obscuring Mist, -2;
Comprehend Languages, -2; Detect Secret Doors, -1;

Detect Undead, -1; Sleep, -3; Magic Aura, -1; Silent Image, -2;
Feather Fall, -1; Magic Missile, -2; Protection from Evil, -3;
Web, -3; Detect Thoughts, -3; See Invisibility, -2;
Blur, -2; Knock, -3; Spider Climb, -2

 

There you go.  There are 21 starting spells that a mage could know that let him do obviously magical things that aren't too unbalancing.  Most of these are utility spells that will only get used in rare situations.

 

Now let's say he buys fire magic because so far he's a little light on offensive abilities.

 

KS: Fire Magic 14-

Light, -0; Flare, -1; Spark, -0;
Scorching Ray, -3; Flame Blade, -3;
Burning Hands, -2; Fireball, -4;

 

That's 7 more spells and it gives him some more versatility and more offense.  There's a little bit of overlap with stuff he can already do, but he's not doing too much that will have a really big effect.  Most of what he gets just changes the special effect, or changes the area on what he can already do.  In Hero, Scorching Ray and Magic Missile are going to be pretty similar.  A minor change in special effect, a little more damage, but that's about it.  This version has 28 spells total, for a grand total of 13 points (so far).  But again, most of these are only useful in special situations.  As far as real combat goes, he's got Sleep, Magic Missile, Scorching Ray, Burning Hands, Flame Blade, and Fireball.  Which really just means he's got a few different RKAs with different advantages on them, and an HKA.  Plus Sleep.

[massey]

As far as our guy becoming a total badass by buying his "raise army of the dead" spell, that's for you and your campaign group to decide.  You may just say "no, a spell like that is not available".  But even if you buy the thing with points, you're probably spending at least 30+ points, even with a lot of limitations.  It's an expensive spell.  Sometimes its a staple of fantasy fiction to have these enormous world-affecting spells, so I wanted to leave that as an option.

 

It's up to you exactly how you want to do it.  If I ever run a Fantasy Hero game, I may try my system.  I like the idea of people getting the starter spells, and anything beyond that is something that you encounter during the game.  So yes, maybe Cloudkill is an Air Magic spell, but you have to find it in play to add it to your spellbook.  It's like finding some rare weapon type.  The warrior can't use a blunderbuss, even though he has the weapon familiarity, because he can't find one.

[Brian Stanfield]

2 minutes ago, massey said:

It's up to you exactly how you want to do it.  If I ever run a Fantasy Hero game, I may try my system.  I like the idea of people getting the starter spells, and anything beyond that is something that you encounter during the game.  So yes, maybe Cloudkill is an Air Magic spell, but you have to find it in play to add it to your spellbook.  It's like finding some rare weapon type.  The warrior can't use a blunderbuss, even though he has the weapon familiarity, because he can't find one.

 

I'd never thought of it that way before, but I like it. To be a "member" of a magical tradition gives the benefit of a standard set of spells. This is especially useful when trying to teach the game, as I will be. Not too much explanation needed, and the spells could be presented with only a little more text than you provided already. This is a great idea.

 

Are you choosing Knowledge Skill instead of Power Skill because it is less expensive to buy extra levels?

[massey]

I was just using Knowledge Skill because you had mentioned it upthread.  Power Skill would work just as well.  I'd suggest building some characters and experimenting with it to see which one you preferred.  See what strikes the best balance.

 

Another thing you might want to do, for spells that are found in game, you might require a 1 point purchase price for each one.  Like buying a Program for a computer in Hero.  This is a pretty cheap price, and it would give you some way to differentiate between characters who had found cool spells and those who had not.

 

So Bob the Wizard has:

7 pts -- Power Skill: Magic 13-

6 pts -- KS: Fire Magic 14-

1 pt -- Flame Strike

1 pt -- Wall of Fire

1 pt -- Summon Fire Elemental (minor)

 

They have to spend a nominal amount to get access to those spells, but they can't buy them until they actually encounter them (or maybe they can start with a few with GM permission).  This gives them something to write on their character sheet and makes it seem like it's really "theirs".

 

You might also consider some magic items that can boost the mage's power.  A Tome of Fire Magic might look something like this:

+30 End, fire magic only, OAF

+3 to KS: Fire Magic, OAF

the book also contains 3 new higher tier fire magic spells, and the bearer can use them without paying any points to learn them as long as he has the book

and the book maybe replaces some of the spell components (no more carrying around bat guano for your fireball)

 

A character who has possession of this book is definitely more powerful, but it's not overwhelming.

[Hugh Neilson]

3 hours ago, Brian Stanfield said:

 

Actually, this was the point I was trying to make, I just didn't write it well. I don't want to hold the party hostage to one person's interests. As far as spell research, what I am envisioning is that any kind of change to a spell would require study of similar spells, etc., to then make a new association that wasn't there before. This obviously isn't going to be role played. But a fireball may be taught one way in one manual with a small selective area of effect, and a different way in a different manual with a large area delayed blast, each with their own unique Advantages and Limitations. To blend them into a third spell with a selective delayed blast would take a research roll. As you said before, a complementary KS roll would be a good idea. None of this would actually be role played, and would happen off stage between adventures, etc. But think of it as writing a paper in school, where you had to grab several books and compare ideas and then glean your own opinion out of them. 

 

 

I guess I should reiterate this: I always hated D&D and how players would suddenly "level up" and spontaneously get new spells. Where from? How? Same for any other skill set actually. Why would a fighter suddenly know how to use two weapons, etc., without some sort of instruction, or perhaps some sort of "weaponry research" roll of their own. I'm just thinking out loud right now. As I said before, I'm trying to find a way to keep things balanced, so I think magic should be a little more restrictive, especially if I allow the invention of new spells.

 

Why, from the spell research he has been doing in the background.  He's been spending some of his free time on the road comparing his fireball he copied from one manual with a small selective area of effect, with the large area delayed blast he copied from another to try to combine the two.  When he has down time between adventures, he goes buys more books, experiments, tests and eventually he figures out his new spell.  But that is boring to game out, so none of this is actually role played - it happens off stage between adventures, etc.   And we measure when he has had enough research time by his experience gained, so he does  not get access to these new spells until he levels up.

 

Meanwhile, the Fighter uses spare time to practice, and seeks out trainers and sparring partners from whom he can learn during longer down time periods,.

 

3 hours ago, Brian Stanfield said:

 

This is where I start to get worried. With 19 points spent Bob now has somewhere around 30 spells. Granted, this may be exactly how you want it to be in your campaign. I was thinking a little more restricted. Sure a warrior can spend equivalent points to know all melee weapons, and buy some skill levels to go with them, but he doesn't actually carry all the weapons with him. He's probably going to have a standard 2 or 3 that he always uses. This potentially puts the wizard at a great advantage. Perhaps your starting cadre of spells are fairly weak, in which case it's not a big deal, but once you allow the Fire Bolt as one of a half-dozen new spells, which will all presumably be of equivalent value, then you're starting to get one really dang powerful sorcerer! Again, this may fit your vision perfectly. And I really like the simplicity as well.

 

For my, I'm thinking of something a little more slow-building in terms of wizardry. The big strong fighters will start the campaign as the more useful players, but eventually the wizards will catch up. By then everyone will have their turf staked out, and hopefully they'd begin to specialize more in their skill sets. Just a hypothesis, but it is what I'm using to create my campaign.

 

I'd have to say I never liked the early D&Dism that, because fighters eclipse wizards at low levels, and wizards eclipse fighters at high levels, we have a balanced game.  I think what we have is unbalance that shifts over time.

 

Bob has 30 spells and skill rolls of 13- and 14-, so he has a 10- or 11- roll to pull off a 2d6 FireBolt RKA.  To do that, he has to Concentrate and spend Extra END and a full phase action (and gesture and incant and have his focus, but anything preventing those would also impede our warrior).  Meanwhile, our Warrior keeps full DCV, only spends END for STR and can swing his sword repeatedly - and he has 3 skill levels to boot (4 points for WF: all common melee and ranged weapons and 9 for 3 skill levels with his favoured weapons).  Now, if they are separated from all their equipment, who will find some thing useful first, the fighter who is proficient in all common weapons, or the wizard who needs a magical wand or a grimoire of spells or a pouch of spell components?

 

By the way, Bob is not even able to swing a staff - he spent all 13 points on two magic skills, the same as Warrior spent on basic combat skills.  Who were we thinking is overpowered, again?

 

But maybe that base skill roll only gets you half a dozen basic, cantrip-type spells, generally capping out at 15 - 20 AP.  Want more spells?  Study more - buy up your roll and, as your knowledge increases, you gain access to more powerful spells.  Taking Massey's list, maybe you get:

 

KS: Magic, base roll-

Detect Magic, -0; Detect Poison, -0; Dancing Lights, -0;
Mage Hand, -1; Prestidigitation, -1; Magic Aura, -1

 

+1 to the roll Detect Secret Doors, -1; Detect Undead, -1; Feather Fall, -1; Magic Missile, -2;

 

Another +1 gets Obscuring Mist, -2; Comprehend Languages, -2; Silent Image, -2;Blur, -2; 

 

Then   See Invisibility, -2; Spider Climb, -2; Protection from Evil, -3;Sleep, -3;; 

 

And next Web, -3; Detect Thoughts, -3; Knock, -3; 

 

That's base skill +4 to get that full "starter pack".

 

You want fire magic because so far you feel a little light on offensive abilities.

 

KS: Fire Magic Base Roll

Light, -0; Flare, -1; Spark, -0;

 

+1 Burning Hands, -2; and a utility spell or two

 

Another +1 Scorching Ray, -3; Flame Blade, -3; another utility spell

Another +1 Fireball, -4; and another couple of spells

 

But that's +3 to the roll, so a decent investment.

 

Let me toss in another curve ball - maybe your "Fire Magic" or "Any Other Magic" skill can NEVER exceed your Magic skill.  You have to buy up the Basic skill (and get those bland universal spells) in order to by up the skills in specific magic orders that will allow access to other spells.  And maybe you don't get as many "Base Magic" spells at each +1, and only get one, maybe two, from each focused School +1, if you want fewer spells. As a sweetener, maybe the low level ones get a bit easier (less limitations) or better (more AP) as you buy up the skills.

 

So, do you buy several low level skill rolls, and have a variety of low power spells, or specialize and build up more power with less breadth?

 

Given the spells themselves are free, players can't complain too much about how many they get, or how powerful they are, so make magic as rare as you want.

 

Oh, and maybe spell research only allows you to develop spells to the rough power level you have attained in that type of magic, so a base Fire Magic roll is not nearly enough to figure out how to cast a Delayed Blast Swarm of Fireballs, no matter how much xp you may be prepared to pay.  You have to master Fire Magic first, and you are a mere initiate.

 

[massey]

Breaking away from the D&D standard (which I think is a decent goal for Fantasy Hero — if you want to play D&D, just play D&D) requires coming up with your own game balance.  It’s a weightier question than you might think at first, because you have to decide how your world works and what effect characters should have.

 

Some fantasy mages are like super-fighters.  The wizard is not only an awesome swordsman, he’s also got all sorts of screw-you powers that normal people can’t get.  If you want to simulate this kind of fantasy story, you’ll make different decisions than if you are duplicating a different story.

 

Some wizards don’t have access to the full D&D wizard suite.  Thulsa Doom (in the movie anyway) was a warrior who could turn into a big snake.  He also had a lot of followers and he could shoot a snake from a bow.  Huh?  And I think he had some sort of hypnotic vision.  He basically had two or three good tricks that nobody knew he could do.  Definitely not a normal D&D wizard.

 

You could have some sort of zombie lord who can build a mighty army by animating the dead, but otherwise he has no spell magic at all.  That’s his one magic power.  For someone like that, it isn’t important for him to have all the blasty stuff, he’s just a normal adventurer type who happens to command an army.  He doesn’t even need a spell.  You could make him a “sorcerer” by buying undead followers just as easily.

 

Most of these won’t be appropriate for whatever game you run.  But they may be great for somebody’s game.  You have to decide how you want your world to look.

[Brian Stanfield]

On 4/18/2018 at 2:16 PM, Hugh Neilson said:

Why, from the spell research he has been doing in the background.  He's been spending some of his free time on the road comparing his fireball he copied from one manual with a small selective area of effect, with the large area delayed blast he copied from another to try to combine the two.  When he has down time between adventures, he goes buys more books, experiments, tests and eventually he figures out his new spell.  But that is boring to game out, so none of this is actually role played - it happens off stage between adventures, etc.   And we measure when he has had enough research time by his experience gained, so he does  not get access to these new spells until he levels up.

 

Meanwhile, the Fighter uses spare time to practice, and seeks out trainers and sparring partners from whom he can learn during longer down time periods,.

 

I think we're in agreement about he off-stage part of the narrative. You're helping me see how to simplify things for beginners when it comes to these issues.

 

On 4/18/2018 at 2:16 PM, Hugh Neilson said:

I'd have to say I never liked the early D&Dism that, because fighters eclipse wizards at low levels, and wizards eclipse fighters at high levels, we have a balanced game.  I think what we have is unbalance that shifts over time.

 

Bob has 30 spells and skill rolls of 13- and 14-, so he has a 10- or 11- roll to pull off a 2d6 FireBolt RKA.  To do that, he has to Concentrate and spend Extra END and a full phase action (and gesture and incant and have his focus, but anything preventing those would also impede our warrior).  Meanwhile, our Warrior keeps full DCV, only spends END for STR and can swing his sword repeatedly - and he has 3 skill levels to boot (4 points for WF: all common melee and ranged weapons and 9 for 3 skill levels with his favoured weapons).  Now, if they are separated from all their equipment, who will find some thing useful first, the fighter who is proficient in all common weapons, or the wizard who needs a magical wand or a grimoire of spells or a pouch of spell components?

 

I agree with you on this in principle. It's why I switched to Fantasy Hero back in 1987ish. D&D just had too many assumptions that I didn't agree with. But I do, however, feel that a wizard at higher "levels" is just more powerful. I get that the experienced warrior has lots of skill levels, tricks, etc., but having a spell that can clear a room of orcs with AOE, selective, AP, NND advantages is just inherently more powerful. I think a wizard ought to work up to that level, but again, that's just my preference. This is why I'm trying to find a way to cap their growth. A beginner may not have a lot of other skills because his points will be used in spells, and as he grows perhaps he can add other skills that he sees necessary. 

 

On 4/18/2018 at 2:16 PM, Hugh Neilson said:

You want fire magic because so far you feel a little light on offensive abilities.

 

KS: Fire Magic Base Roll

Light, -0; Flare, -1; Spark, -0;

 

+1 Burning Hands, -2; and a utility spell or two

 

Another +1 Scorching Ray, -3; Flame Blade, -3; another utility spell

Another +1 Fireball, -4; and another couple of spells

 

But that's +3 to the roll, so a decent investment.

 

This is a good idea. I'm curious to see how it would play out!

 

On 4/18/2018 at 2:16 PM, Hugh Neilson said:

Let me toss in another curve ball - maybe your "Fire Magic" or "Any Other Magic" skill can NEVER exceed your Magic skill.  You have to buy up the Basic skill (and get those bland universal spells) in order to by up the skills in specific magic orders that will allow access to other spells.  And maybe you don't get as many "Base Magic" spells at each +1, and only get one, maybe two, from each focused School +1, if you want fewer spells. As a sweetener, maybe the low level ones get a bit easier (less limitations) or better (more AP) as you buy up the skills.

 

So, do you buy several low level skill rolls, and have a variety of low power spells, or specialize and build up more power with less breadth?

 

Given the spells themselves are free, players can't complain too much about how many they get, or how powerful they are, so make magic as rare as you want.

 

Oh, and maybe spell research only allows you to develop spells to the rough power level you have attained in that type of magic, so a base Fire Magic roll is not nearly enough to figure out how to cast a Delayed Blast Swarm of Fireballs, no matter how much xp you may be prepared to pay.  You have to master Fire Magic first, and you are a mere initiate.

 

This is a great curve ball! It's getting at some of the issues I've been wrestling with. The board game version of Civilization has technology trees, and you only have access to higher techs if you've already developed lower level techs from different areas. This was suggested in FH6 as a possible way of doing things, and it hadn't really appealed to me until now. It's at least got some really interesting potential. Your delayed blast swarm of fireballs is exactly on point!

 

What I'm trying to avoid, ultimately, and I didn't put this is the original post, is that I don't really want to dole out free spells but rather come up with a way that players have to pay for each spell. But this obviously gets really expensive. Perhaps I go with the Real Cost/5 convention. I don't know. I was hoping spell research would be where things could get interesting, but it also could get expensive.

 

I wonder, how would you define "mastery" in Fire Magic? A set skill level, a certain number of points spent, or something else? This is another one of those issues I haven't been able to settle on.

 

As always, thanks for the feedback!

 

 

[Brian Stanfield]

On 4/18/2018 at 2:46 PM, massey said:

Some wizards don’t have access to the full D&D wizard suite.  Thulsa Doom (in the movie anyway) was a warrior who could turn into a big snake.  He also had a lot of followers and he could shoot a snake from a bow.  Huh?  And I think he had some sort of hypnotic vision.  He basically had two or three good tricks that nobody knew he could do.  Definitely not a normal D&D wizard.

 

This is exactly the sort of thing that made me switch to Fantasy HERO back in the '80s. This is most definitely not D&D stuff. I love the possibilities offered in HERO System.

[mallet]

On 4/17/2018 at 2:12 PM, Brian Stanfield said:

 

I think when I try to teach Fantasy HERO to a new group of players I should just go with the spells in the HS Grimoire and leave it at that for a beginning. As you say, a low bar of entry is of great value for this experiment. And the Grimoire allows for different variables within each spell to help it match campaign requirements.

 

Honest question here, but has anyone actually ever played with the HS Grimoire spells, plus going back to the 5th Ed spell books as well, as they are actually written/built? I honestly doubt most people have. I tried way back when with my first Fantasy Hero game set in the Turakian Age and after one session knew it would have to change, and after the second one I had to go back and we work all the spells the magical characters had. The spells, as written, make spellcasters useless. 

 

Just look at this example and spot the problem:

 

FireBolt: RKA 2d6, Area Of Effect (32m
Line; +½) (45 Active Points); OAF Expendable
(small gold rod tipped with garnets, Very Difficult
to obtain; -1½), Gestures (-¼), Incantations (-¼),
No Range (-½), Requires A Magic Roll (-½), Spell
(-½). Total cost: 10 points.

 

You see it? OAF Expendable. OAF Expendable. A gold rod tipped with garnets. And it is an Expendable Focus.

 

Even if you allow all the Magical characters to start with one of each focus item they need for each spell they know, that means they can cast Fire Bolt once. Once. Before they have to go out and find/build, or pay for a small gold rod tipped with garnets before casting that spell again. What? Unless you are allowing the players to start with dozens of each focus, the spell is useless. And is a mage going to carry around 12 small gold rods tipped with garnets? Those are probably very valuable (they are very difficult to obtain after all) so why not just sell them and make a ton of cash?

 

And that is the same for 99% of all spells in the book(s). Most have Expendable Focuses as part of their build, allowing for a huge point saving, but at the cost of making RAW spellcasting useless. I had to go back and rebuild/cost each spell the players wanted and change the focus to being not expendable. 

 

Anyway, end of rant about the spell builds in the Grimoires. 

 

Another thing to factor into your magic system and general campaign, is the fact that unlike D&D, magic users in Fantasy Hero generally don't suffer any of the limitations that the D&D ones have. A magic user in Fantasy Hero can wear armor. They can use swords and such if they spend the 2CP for WF. If they have a good OCV (which most will have since it is the same STAT used to hit with a spell as it is to hit with a sword) then a magic user isn't limited to just casting spells. When needed they can throw down next to the fighters. In fact if a spell caster is willing to sacrifice a spell or two they can get the WF common melee weapons, and Combat Luck, for 5 CP total. Then wear some leather armor or something not super heavy (assuming you are using encumbrance rules and that the magic user has a STR of 8-10) and they can now hold their own in hand to hand combat, plus cast spells when needed. Sure, they won't be a good as the pure fighter, but they be at least as good as the thief who spent a bunch of points on stealth and lockpicking, Traps, etc...

 

[Hugh Neilson]

14 hours ago, Brian Stanfield said:

 

I agree with you on this in principle. It's why I switched to Fantasy Hero back in 1987ish. D&D just had too many assumptions that I didn't agree with. But I do, however, feel that a wizard at higher "levels" is just more powerful. I get that the experienced warrior has lots of skill levels, tricks, etc., but having a spell that can clear a room of orcs with AOE, selective, AP, NND advantages is just inherently more powerful. I think a wizard ought to work up to that level, but again, that's just my preference. This is why I'm trying to find a way to cap their growth. A beginner may not have a lot of other skills because his points will be used in spells, and as he grows perhaps he can add other skills that he sees necessary. 

 

AoE (let’s say +1/2 – an 8 meter radius should cover most rooms)., Selective (+1/2), NND (+1) costs 15 AP per DC.  I removed AP as it does not mesh with NND.  We want to take out the Orc – how much STUN does it have?  Let’s say 25.  I need 8d6 to average 28 STUN to take out the orcs fairly reliably.  That’s 120 AP.  -12 to my magic roll, and 12 END (assuming it does not cost Extra END).

 

Let’s assume it requires Gestures, Incantations, a Skill roll (again, at -12 to the roll), a full phase, Concentration (0 DCV throughout that phase) and an OAF Wand.  That’s a total of -3 in limitations, so the spell “only” costs 40 points.  I still need a magic roll of 22- to cast it successfully half of the time, enough OCV to hit the Orcs (it’s Selective, remember?), Orcs who don’t throw or fire missile weapons as I wildly Gesture and Incant at 0 DCV and I probably want some other spells for those opponents who have the “fairly common” defense against my NND.

 

How soon do you think a Wizard will have those abilities?  And “reliably” means if he can make the 10- required skill roll (he gets two, maybe three chances before he has to burn STUN for END), hit all of the Orcs and roll no worse than a bit below average, so while he can clear the room full of Orcs, he can’t do so all that rapidly, or reliably.

 

I doubt he started with that spell, so he’s earned at least 40 xp.  What did the fighter do with his 40 xp?  That would buy a pretty impressive "Hail of Arrows" or "Whirlwind Attack" weapon trick.
 

10 hours ago, mallet said:

 

Another thing to factor into your magic system and general campaign, is the fact that unlike D&D, magic users in Fantasy Hero generally don't suffer any of the limitations that the D&D ones have. A magic user in Fantasy Hero can wear armor. They can use swords and such if they spend the 2CP for WF. If they have a good OCV (which most will have since it is the same STAT used to hit with a spell as it is to hit with a sword) then a magic user isn't limited to just casting spells. When needed they can throw down next to the fighters. In fact if a spell caster is willing to sacrifice a spell or two they can get the WF common melee weapons, and Combat Luck, for 5 CP total. Then wear some leather armor or something not super heavy (assuming you are using encumbrance rules and that the magic user has a STR of 8-10) and they can now hold their own in hand to hand combat, plus cast spells when needed. Sure, they won't be a good as the pure fighter, but they be at least as good as the thief who spent a bunch of points on stealth and lockpicking, Traps, etc...

 

If our Wizard wants to meet the STR Min, an 8 STR doesn’t let him use any type of sword.  He can manage a small axe, hammer or mace. 10 STR opens up a few more options, including a short sword.  YAY – 1d6 HKA!

 

Does he have a great OCV, or does he tend to use area effect and/or ECV targeted spells?  Maybe he can hit a typical target, but our Warrior has skill levels he can put to damage against tough foes (the ones that laugh at a 1d6 HKA) or OCV against high DCV foes.  A classic wizard won’t have those skill levels.

 

That wily rogue probably bought some combat tricks – Deadly Blow for Sneak Attacks is pretty common – but our Wizard didn’t.

 

Of course, he can always buy fewer (and/or lower power) spells and be better at physical combat, or he could even be a wizard who focuses on augmenting his physical combat abilities.  Plenty of options exist.

 

Looking at our example 6e characters, the Warrior spent 26 points on Martial Arts with Blades, and 16 more on two HTH skill levels. He could probably repurpose his 15 points spent on 3d6 Luck, so that's 57 points.  The Wizard spent 61 points on spells, and 15 more on Magic Skill.  Of course the Fighter has better physical stats, better armor, a shield and better weaponry.  Our Wizard has a 6d6 AoE attack, a 1d6 NND KA that does BOD and an Invisibility spell, all of which he can cast fairly reliably.  Our Warrior can swing his broadsword at OCV 7 (with levels), DCV 9 (with his shield) for a 3d6+1 HKA.  Wizard has 5 DC and defenses of 7 (r4)PD and 9 (r4) ED, including cloth armor and Combat Luck.  The warrior has 12 (r6) PD and 11 (r6) PD counting his chain mail.

 

I don't see the Wizard walking into melee that often - even if you gave him a Short Sword (1d6 HKA) and Boiled Leather armor (for another 2 rPD and ED).

[Brian Stanfield]

22 hours ago, mallet said:

You see it? OAF Expendable. OAF Expendable. A gold rod tipped with garnets. And it is an Expendable Focus.

 

Even if you allow all the Magical characters to start with one of each focus item they need for each spell they know, that means they can cast Fire Bolt once. Once. Before they have to go out and find/build, or pay for a small gold rod tipped with garnets before casting that spell again. What? Unless you are allowing the players to start with dozens of each focus, the spell is useless. And is a mage going to carry around 12 small gold rods tipped with garnets? Those are probably very valuable (they are very difficult to obtain after all) so why not just sell them and make a ton of cash?

 

And that is the same for 99% of all spells in the book(s). Most have Expendable Focuses as part of their build, allowing for a huge point saving, but at the cost of making RAW spellcasting useless. I had to go back and rebuild/cost each spell the players wanted and change the focus to being not expendable. 

 

Yeah, this is why I hate expendable foci. The Grimoire allows for adjusting the Advantages and Limitations, so it's not a totally lost cause. I like the Grimoire for good ideas, and for showing newbies how a spell is built. 

 

22 hours ago, mallet said:

Another thing to factor into your magic system and general campaign, is the fact that unlike D&D, magic users in Fantasy Hero generally don't suffer any of the limitations that the D&D ones have. A magic user in Fantasy Hero can wear armor. They can use swords and such if they spend the 2CP for WF. If they have a good OCV (which most will have since it is the same STAT used to hit with a spell as it is to hit with a sword) then a magic user isn't limited to just casting spells. When needed they can throw down next to the fighters. In fact if a spell caster is willing to sacrifice a spell or two they can get the WF common melee weapons, and Combat Luck, for 5 CP total. Then wear some leather armor or something not super heavy (assuming you are using encumbrance rules and that the magic user has a STR of 8-10) and they can now hold their own in hand to hand combat, plus cast spells when needed. Sure, they won't be a good as the pure fighter, but they be at least as good as the thief who spent a bunch of points on stealth and lockpicking, Traps, etc...

 

This is another good point, and definitely a selling point for me with Fantasy Hero. When I've been saying that the wizards are potentially unbalanced, the obvious solution to limiting their spells is to do as you say and give them some other combat skills. Heck, a wizard with a staff for his OAF could also make that a staff sling, for example, and hurl rocks as hist standard combat maneuver. The flexibility is awesome, and encourages players to think outside of traditional cliches in fantasy gaming.

[Brian Stanfield]

11 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

How soon do you think a Wizard will have those abilities?  And “reliably” means if he can make the 10- required skill roll (he gets two, maybe three chances before he has to burn STUN for END), hit all of the Orcs and roll no worse than a bit below average, so while he can clear the room full of Orcs, he can’t do so all that rapidly, or reliably.

 

I doubt he started with that spell, so he’s earned at least 40 xp.  What did the fighter do with his 40 xp?  That would buy a pretty impressive "Hail of Arrows" or "Whirlwind Attack" weapon trick.

 

Great criticisms all around, and well explained, but can you help me out with some solutions? Or at least some ideas to help me move forward? Because right now I feel like I just need to scrap the whole thing. What type of magic do you use in Fantasy Hero?

[Brian Stanfield]

On 4/17/2018 at 10:15 PM, drunkonduty said:

 

Here's a copy of my magic system. It's a chapter from a larger document.

 

There are references in the text to parts of the document which I haven't uploaded.

 

I've kept it simple.  There is one skill per tradition. Every spell needs a skill roll at -1/10AP. I've tried to hide the mechanical stuff as much as possible.

 

Mages pay a (pretty large) cost for their spells. To offset some of this I've tried to make a lot of of the spells different from simple damage. Drains and transforms,  Armour Piercing,  or AoE. Also worth noting that I have made armour have less rED than rPD. This means that wizards and such are usually targeting a lower defense.

 

Spells and Magic v21.docx

 

Hey, drunkonduty, I finally had a chance to look through your magic document. I like it! It's simple and clean and makes good sense. I especially like that sorcerers pay only the difference in cost for an improved spell. I hadn't thought of this at all, and it fits in perfectly with what I was wanting to do with he Spell Research skill but couldn't quite work out. 

 

Thanks for sharing it. By the way, what is Fantasy Hero Basic? Is that a beginners document you're working on?

[Hugh Neilson]

I've used the original Fantasy Hero system (but side effects were really brutal), normal point buy spells and multipowers.  I don't think we've ever scoped out a really novel magic system, or used the Turakian "divide cost by three" model,  

 

I find the discussions interesting.

 

In general, I find I agree with drunkonduty that magic works best when it does things that aren't just the same damage the warriors do.

 

I guess I question what you are trying to achieve that the rules are not already achieving.  How were wizards overpowered before?  Presumably, you have lived the "wizards clean out the whole room" issue.  What builds were having that result?

 

Going back to my build, above, if you divide the cost of the spell by 3, now that 40 point cost is only 13 points.  Invest some savings into +4 to the magic skill roll (or just drop the RSR to -1 per 20 AP so the spell costs 44 points/3 = 15, so the roll is now 16-), and that ability becomes much more readily attainable.

 

I also think it needs to be compared with what the warriors get to do.  Back in the first iteration of FH, spells were expensive, and those side effects were brutal.  However, the warriors were not  buying Weapon Based Martial Arts with bonus damage classes either -  a 3d6+1 sword strike was not easy to achieve.  Wizards are not overpowered in a vacuum - they can only be "overpowered" in comparison to their allies, and/or their opponents.

[Brian Stanfield]

9 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

I also think it needs to be compared with what the warriors get to do.  Back in the first iteration of FH, spells were expensive, and those side effects were brutal.  However, the warriors were not  buying Weapon Based Martial Arts with bonus damage classes either -  a 3d6+1 sword strike was not easy to achieve.  Wizards are not overpowered in a vacuum - they can only be "overpowered" in comparison to their allies, and/or their opponents.

 

Good point. I may be overthinking things and worrying where there is no need. I always played with Multipowers or VPPs. I've never done a simple "buy the spells as if they are powers" approach because it seems so expensive. But I guess that's why the cost/3 or cost/5 has become so common. In fact, the cost/5 ends out basically being like a Multipower without a Reserve or slots, just the cost savings. 

 

Thanks for you input!

[Hugh Neilson]

I agree it "feels" expensive to buy each spell separately (which is effectively how your skill model was working out), but I wonder if that is because most of us in Hero are used to the "Super with many abilities" model.  Looking at the sample wizard in 6e V2, he seems to have a pretty reasonable selection of spells for a starting character.  But you won't be buying a powerful new spell for 2 xp.

 

I think it could get very expensive, very quickly, if the character is effectively buying small modifications to abilities for full price, such as buying multiple attack spells that are just variances on a single 6DC attack or a variety of defensive "force field" spells.  That would be where allowing the character to make his Fire Bolt into a Multipower with various tweaks on the FireBolt might be useful.  But he does not get to toss in his Lightning Arc, Charm Person, Ray of Enfeeblement, etc., etc. in there - the MP is only allowed to be variations on that one specific spell.  Maybe that also allows his Shields of the Seraphim to morph into a Variable Slot multipower with PD, ED and various exotic defenses to customize his shield.

 

If the spellcasters get their cool abilities for 1/3 or 1/5 the real cost, but the martial characters have to pay full price, that seems like it will get unbalanced fast.  At the same time, if the warrior can buy a Weapon Tricks multipower or VPP, but the spellcaster has to buy each spell individually at full price, the balance shifts the other way.

 

Often, we criticize our magic systems as "not feeling magical", but the reality is that any game has to have mechanics, and once reduced to its mechanics, it doesn't seem very magical.  It's the role play and the fluff that turns a 3d6 STR Drain, returns 5/20 minutes into a magical Curse of Weakness which shrivels the target's flesh and sinew until he can barely even lift his sword, much less wield it effectively.  That's no different in Hero ("Use my STR drain - 12 SR unless he has power defense") or D&D ("Use Ray of Enfeeblement - he loses 6 STR unless he saves for half"). 

 

It is the familiarity and the certainty of  mechanics which drains the magic.

[Brian Stanfield]

9 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

I think it could get very expensive, very quickly, if the character is effectively buying small modifications to abilities for full price, such as buying multiple attack spells that are just variances on a single 6DC attack or a variety of defensive "force field" spells.  That would be where allowing the character to make his Fire Bolt into a Multipower with various tweaks on the FireBolt might be useful.  But he does not get to toss in his Lightning Arc, Charm Person, Ray of Enfeeblement, etc., etc. in there - the MP is only allowed to be variations on that one specific spell.  Maybe that also allows his Shields of the Seraphim to morph into a Variable Slot multipower with PD, ED and various exotic defenses to customize his shield.

 

Did you happen to look at drunkonduty's magic system file? He had a great idea of only charging for the difference in cost for a new version of an existing skill. I like that a lot. 

 

I mentioned that I had built a Multipower system before, and in that I basically had separate Multipowers for each school of magic someone studied: fire school, necromancy, etc. The MP represented each magic tome, so I had all sorts of limitations set for re-arranging the slots, making new spells, etc., based on OAF, extra time for study, etc.  I got hung up on the cost for each MP Reserve, though, and so it got costly too. But I just saw an alternate rule basing the MP slots on Real Cost rather than Active Points, which would allow the Reserve to be smaller. So short story long, I may just go back to that. If I allow new slots to be added by paying the difference in cost of one that exists (like drunkonduty's system) then it can become quite cost effective. 

 

9 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

If the spellcasters get their cool abilities for 1/3 or 1/5 the real cost, but the martial characters have to pay full price, that seems like it will get unbalanced fast.  At the same time, if the warrior can buy a Weapon Tricks multipower or VPP, but the spellcaster has to buy each spell individually at full price, the balance shifts the other way.

 

This is the crux of the problem, isn't it? I suppose if I'm trying to teach to new people I could just start with the standard Fantasy Hero Complete system to begin with, and pre-gen or highly packaged characters, and not worry about any of these decisions until they decide they want to do more advanced stuff.

 

9 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Often, we criticize our magic systems as "not feeling magical", but the reality is that any game has to have mechanics, and once reduced to its mechanics, it doesn't seem very magical.  It's the role play and the fluff that turns a 3d6 STR Drain, returns 5/20 minutes into a magical Curse of Weakness which shrivels the target's flesh and sinew until he can barely even lift his sword, much less wield it effectively.  That's no different in Hero ("Use my STR drain - 12 SR unless he has power defense") or D&D ("Use Ray of Enfeeblement - he loses 6 STR unless he saves for half"). 

 

Yeah, we were discussing roleplaying in this thread and coming up with ways to improve roleplaying interaction. It seems magic is one of those things that should inspire some good narrative fun, but most people just point and shoot without much thought. But I attribute that to "kids these days." 

 

Get off my lawn!

[drunkonduty]

Hi Brian.

 

Please, call me Glen.

 

Yeah Fantasy Hero Basic is my own personal take on making a playable, beginner level game based on Fantasy Hero. I was inspired to do it by a thread, from about a year ago, about ways to introduce new players to the game without killing them with mechanics. A thread you started, IIRC.

 

My number one design point was KISS: Keep It Simple, Stupid. I wanted it to be something that new players could pick up and use without needing to know much about HERO system mechanics. This has affected how I went about it. No Multipowers or VPPs as they require too much system knowledge. I did think about having all magic be powered by a magical END reserve; having this END reserve was what made a sorcerer a sorcerer. But I opted against it because it added a level of complication and I told myself "KISS." This also why players are presented with relatively short lists of spells they can choose from; working on the idea that fewer choices is a good thing for new players as it makes decision making easier. Ditto for breaking up of spells into Apprentice, Journeyman, and Master. It's just to help separate out the spells into roughly equivalent power groups. There's no mechanical difference between the groups; just a more difficult skill roll.

 

My second design point was "what is the style of game?" And I think this is the question you need to answer. The system will have to represent how powerful, flexible, and ubiquitous magic is. I have aimed for a low fantasy/low magic. The magic system I've designed for it will (hopefully) encourage players who want magic to opt for some magic with other skills (combat and non-combat.) Those who wish to focus exclusively on magic can do so but it is points expensive.

 

I want to encourage magic to be different from weapons combat.  I want it to be able to do things that a person with a sword can't. So there are AoE, NND, Drains, Transforms, and Mental attacks. There are still spells like firebolt; a straight forward RKA. But the other options are such that this is actually a non-optimal choice. Of course there's magic for doing non-combat stuff. Again, I want it to be such that the magic is doing things normal people can't: sensing spirits, creating magical barriers, illusions, summoning elemental servants, raising the dead.

 

So I recommend you ask yourself "What do I want my magic system to look like?" Pick a book or movie or TV series that encapsulates what you want and break it down. We here are of course happy to help. ?

 

Cheers mate.

 

 

 

[Hugh Neilson]

15 hours ago, Brian Stanfield said:

 

Did you happen to look at drunkonduty's magic system file? He had a great idea of only charging for the difference in cost for a new version of an existing skill. I like that a lot. 

 

I mentioned that I had built a Multipower system before, and in that I basically had separate Multipowers for each school of magic someone studied: fire school, necromancy, etc. The MP represented each magic tome, so I had all sorts of limitations set for re-arranging the slots, making new spells, etc., based on OAF, extra time for study, etc.  I got hung up on the cost for each MP Reserve, though, and so it got costly too. But I just saw an alternate rule basing the MP slots on Real Cost rather than Active Points, which would allow the Reserve to be smaller. So short story long, I may just go back to that. If I allow new slots to be added by paying the difference in cost of one that exists (like drunkonduty's system) then it can become quite cost effective. 

 

I'm not sure how only charging the difference is a lot different from upgrading the skill.  If I want to add AP, or reduce the concentration penalty, then I add the advantage, or reduce the limitation, but that means I am able to tweak the spell's build.

 

To me, a VPP is a Multipower with slots based on real, rather than active, cost.  The 6e innovation of being able to buy higher or lower maximum AP costs, separate from the size of the pool, clinched that.  Every spell has -3 in  limitations and you can only use one spell at a time, with a 60 AP cap?  15 point pool, 30 point control cost.  Limit to taste - if every spell must have certain limitations in common, or there are restrictions to changing the pool, the control cost is limited.  If the spells can be traded out faster, or without the usual skill roll, advantage on control cost.

 

Now, let's assume all spells must Require a Skill Roll (-1/2), and must select other limitations totaling -2 1/2, for that -3 total.  I'd allow the Control Cost a - 1 3/4 limitation being -1/2 for always needing RSR and -1 1/4 for the remaining Variable Limitations.  But if the rule is "only spells you have learned", maybe Flaming Ball of Doom has RSR, Gest (-14), Incant (-1/4), 2x END (-1/2), Concentrate 0 DCV (-1/2) and OAF: Wizard Staff (-1), so its 60 AP drop you down to 20 RP.  If the limitations cannot be easily reconfigured (i.e. you can only use spells you have learned, or you can only change the limitations during down time), I'd be OK with the full limitation value on the VPP slots.

 

So we need a 20 point reserve (20 real points), and a Control Cost of 60/2 = 30, with a -1 3/4 limitation, and let's say a further -1/2 for "only spells learned or researched", but you can freely switch between those spells by spending a half phase to refocus (+1/4 to reduce time to a half phase; +1/2 for no skill roll required).  That's 30 x 1.75/3.25 = 16, for a total cost of 36.  But now we have to determine which starting spells our Wizard can know, and how he can find, learn and/or research new ones.  Depending on how easy or hard that is, maybe -1/2 is not the right limitation.  However, especially given Dispels and similar targeting all magic will likely be pretty common, "Magic Only" should be a -1/4 limitation even if there are no restrictions to finding/learning spells. The control cost would only be 17 with that result.

 

Maybe a skilled Wizard can drop the total limitations to -2, so he can reduce the Variable Limitation to -3/4 (but he'll also need more real points to power these easier spells) - something for our novice wizard to aim for as he masters Magic. 

[massey]

Is there much difference between a warrior buying "Deadly Strike" (or whatever it's called) to add +1D6 HKA to all swords, and a wizard buying "Fire Magic Expert" to add +1D6 RKA to all fire spells?

[Brian Stanfield]

6 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

I'm not sure how only charging the difference is a lot different from upgrading the skill.  If I want to add AP, or reduce the concentration penalty, then I add the advantage, or reduce the limitation, but that means I am able to tweak the spell's build.

 

I think the idea here is to have multiple versions of the same spell without having to pay the full cost for each one. 

 

6 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

However, especially given Dispels and similar targeting all magic will likely be pretty common, "Magic Only" should be a -1/4 limitation even if there are no restrictions to finding/learning spells

 

I was going to ask if the "Magic" limitation was still required in the newer version of Fantasy Hero. I think the Dispel example answers that question for me. Things like "detect magic" would, I suppose, require this limitation for each spell in the first place. Thanks for bringing that up.

 

As for what you say about the VPP, that's great stuff, and makes perfect sense. But the problem becomes how to explain all that to someone who's never played any HERO System game before. I suppose I could just build it for them and make modifications as they grow, but I'm trying to find a good way to introduce magic to newbies. VPP is just about the worst case scenario. This is primarily why I tried to find a skill-based approach, although I mucked it up with too many new rules right out of the gate to make it just as daunting for someone unfamiliar with the game mechanics.

[Brian Stanfield]

4 hours ago, massey said:

Is there much difference between a warrior buying "Deadly Strike" (or whatever it's called) to add +1D6 HKA to all swords, and a wizard buying "Fire Magic Expert" to add +1D6 RKA to all fire spells?

 

Interesting. I like that as a possible talent to add to the list.

[Brian Stanfield]

17 hours ago, drunkonduty said:

Yeah Fantasy Hero Basic is my own personal take on making a playable, beginner level game based on Fantasy Hero. I was inspired to do it by a thread, from about a year ago, about ways to introduce new players to the game without killing them with mechanics. A thread you started, IIRC.

 

Yes indeed. Thanks, Glen. I loved that thread, but it didn't produce as much as I had hoped. Xotl's Fantasy Hero Primer was a positive result from all of that, but wasn't quite what I had in mind. I'd be curious to see what you're doing with it. 

 

FH Basic is more like what I imagined. If you've ever seen the GURPS Lite download, it pretty much goes through all the rules in 35 or so pages IIRC. It's perfect, and I read it and felt like I was ready to play in less than an hour. HERO could really use something like this, I think. Although Fantasy Hero Complete is a good basic book, it's still a bit much for someone totally new. When I told my buddy I'd like to start a campaign using it, he looked at the book and totally melted down. He was ready to learn all the rules, and it's not intuitively laid out for someone used to Pathfinder or D&D to follow: "Where are the classes?" "Where are the weapons charts?" "Is there an equipment list?" The answer to each of these was that I wasn't totally sure and he'd have to dig around to find them. Yeesh. That's partly my fault for not having mastered the book, but it's just not intuitive. The magic system isn't introduced until much, much later in the book, which just seems silly to me.

 

Anyway, I think that I'm looking at setting up a campaign like you describe: a low fantasy/low magic campaign. Wizards won't be as "well-rounded" with lots of skills and things, but since they also don't need a lot of points spent on Characteristics, it frees them up to get more spells. This seems, to me, to be a good way to introduce the game to beginners. A wide open campaign with lots of crazy magic and crypto-magical abilities quickly makes it harder to get a grasp of for beginners.

[drunkonduty]

I did read GURPS lite... a long time ago. It might have been the late 80's, early 90s... I can't remember a thing about it. It was a loooong time ago.

 

I'm happy to throw my document up here, or in the downloads section.

 

It runs to 104 pages, but some of that page count is made from repeating charts and tables in the back, a glossary, contents and such. There's also loads of copyright free art in it.

 

My only concern is one for Hero games: the document repeats a lot of HERO system rules (in abbreviated form). I don't want to encroach on anyone's copyright by posting the thing. Anyone know who I should PM and check with?

[Brian Stanfield]

21 hours ago, drunkonduty said:

My only concern is one for Hero games: the document repeats a lot of HERO system rules (in abbreviated form). I don't want to encroach on anyone's copyright by posting the thing. Anyone know who I should PM and check with?

 

Probably Jason Walters is your guy. I suspect the proprietary content may be an issue, but you never know.