Normal Dice and Does Body & Pen.

[Ninja-Bear]

Hello all,

 

Quick question, can I legally add Does Body to a Normal Dice attack once I add Penetrating?  I believe I should be able too. (CC)

TiA!

[Christougher]

I would say 'No', because a normal damage attack already does Body damage, with or without Penetrating.  Does Body only allows attacks that normally deal no Body damage to do so.

 

So the question becomes, What are you trying to accomplish by adding Does Body?  If you're looking to make a Normal Damage attack do Penetrating Body instead of Penetrating Stun, that won't do.  You'll need to use a Killing Attack with Penetrating to do Penetrating Body.

 

Chris.

[ghost-angel]

Does Body can only be applied to Attacks that do Stun Only damage.  There would be no point in adding it to an Attack that already does Body damage.

[Ninja-Bear]

1 hour ago, ghost-angel said:

Does Body can only be applied to Attacks that do Stun Only damage.  There would be no point in adding it to an Attack that already does Body damage.

Yes but when you put penetrating on normal dice, it only becomes Stun. Therefore I wonder if I put on does Body, then whatever Body rolled on the Normal dice with Penetrating does Body.

[Ninja-Bear]

1 hour ago, Christougher said:

I would say 'No', because a normal damage attack already does Body damage, with or without Penetrating.  Does Body only allows attacks that normally deal no Body damage to do so.

 

So the question becomes, What are you trying to accomplish by adding Does Body?  If you're looking to make a Normal Damage attack do Penetrating Body instead of Penetrating Stun, that won't do.  You'll need to use a Killing Attack with Penetrating to do Penetrating Body.

 

Chris.

Except that’s not what I want it to do. A high enough Normal DC against a modest DEF results with Body damage.  I want that. However with a high enough DeF, I want a little Stun and a little Body to get through.  I don’t want a separate mechanic. However if I must, what about linking 1D6 Killing to the Penetrating attack no STR bonus Avad/NND (Def is impenetrable) ?

[Hugh Neilson]

I don't see a straightforward way to have a normal damage attack do penetrating  BOD.  I suppose you could Link an NND attach which Does BOD, does no STUN and for which the defense is impenetrable defenses.  Assuming, say, an 8d6 normal attack that rolls 28 STUN and 8 BOD, how much BOD are you envisioning would be Penetrating?

[Ninja-Bear]

Hugh I envisioned only roughly 1 BOD per Die.

[Ninja-Bear]

Funny thing is now I don’t need this mechanic anymore. Thx again guys.

[Hugh Neilson]

5 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Hugh I envisioned only roughly 1 BOD per Die.

 

That's 3 times as good as a penetrating killing attack, isn't it?  Normal attacks only average 1 BOD per die, so that is the equivalent of the attack being NND and Does BOD for purposes of doing BOD only.

[Ninja-Bear]

What I would like to do is adapt Kung Fu 2100 to Hero. I have both the original Pocket box game and Gurps version. Terminators can break a reinforced door on a 1-2 on a D6. Gurps just has power blow and breaking blow for Iron Fist. I could go and buy tunneling vs doors but I still need a power to destroy equipment. I know Killing attacks is the most obvious however commonly martial maneuvers built as super skills are still bought as HA. Hence I wanted to still go HA but since it’s so Super, it can still do some body even if the object resists the initial blow. Also I like the idea from the pocket box version (yes it’s super simple) though that you can lose an ability by fighting. It’s a way to track damage, after you lose all abilities then you fall unconscious. I’m thinking this is best represented by a physical limitation.

[LoneWolf]

What you are trying to do will not work.  But what you could do is to use a killing attack and take the +0 advantage AVAD to make it so you use your normal defenses vs the killing attack.  If you apply penetration to this attack the body will be penetrating.  Since you take a minimum of 1 stun per body taken this will effectively make the stun penetrating as well. 

 

Martial maneuvers are not limited to normal attacks.  There are plenty of martial killing attacks as well as a variety of other attacks as well. 

[Ninja-Bear]

That’s an interesting way to do it. Actually what might save me the headache is to use the suggested bend steel with bare hands pg. 142 CC. All objects that are hit with the super martial arts suffer x2 Body. If I put Iron Fist at 8D6 and define reinforced door at 4PD 1 Body then I should be able, unless I roll bad (which is ok) bust the door open.

[Lucius]

Iron Fist:  (Total: 4 Active Cost, 4 Real Cost) Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand d6 (Reduced Negation (1)), Penetrating (x2; +1) (4 Active Points) (Real Cost: 4)

 

Yes, that's a no d6 Killing attack. The only damage it does is what's added by STR and maneuvers, but the damage is Penetrating. It also negates negation.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And a palindromedary limited to abnormal attacks.

[Ninja-Bear]

17 minutes ago, Lucius said:

Iron Fist:  (Total: 4 Active Cost, 4 Real Cost) Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand d6 (Reduced Negation (1)), Penetrating (x2; +1) (4 Active Points) (Real Cost: 4)

 

Yes, that's a no d6 Killing attack. The only damage it does is what's added by STR and maneuvers, but the damage is Penetrating. It also negates negation.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And a palindromedary limited to abnormal attacks.

Wouldn’t you have to make it at least 1 pip Killing? Or did you and I missed it?

[Ninja-Bear]

Btw, I know the major problem I’m having is with myself. I’m trying to do an exact translation of one rules into another instead of a paraphrasing it.

[ghost-angel]

23 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Yes but when you put penetrating on normal dice, it only becomes Stun. Therefore I wonder if I put on does Body, then whatever Body rolled on the Normal dice with Penetrating does Body.

 

The rules say nothing about a Normal Attack becoming Stun Only. Penetrating only applies to the Stun Damage of a Normal Attack, just not the Body. A Penetrating Hand Attack will still do Body Damage.

 

This is for both 5E and 6E. You cannot apply Penetrating to the Body Damage of a Normal Attack as Penetrating works on the Total Die Roll Effect.

[LoneWolf]

Stop thinking in game terms and instead figure out what you want your character to do.  Once you have what you want your character to be able to do build it.  Trying to translate exactly from one system to another is a waste of time.  There are probably a dozen ways to get what you want. 

 

One thing to keep in mind is that once you get past the DEF of an object it is not hard to break them.  Look at how much damage you are doing with your attack, and see how close you are.  For an Iron Fist effect I would simply buy a few extra dice of damage.  Maybe put a couple of limitation on it like extra time and maybe requires a roll. 

[Lucius]

1 hour ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Wouldn’t you have to make it at least 1 pip Killing? Or did you and I missed it?

 

I don't think I have to, no.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary can't make me and doesn't want to

[IndianaJoe3]

If you're just busting down doors, would Tunneling work?

[Ninja-Bear]

47 minutes ago, IndianaJoe3 said:

If you're just busting down doors, would Tunneling work?

I looked at that too. But I find it odd on how Killing attacks (in general) work better than any other power.

[Cantriped]

Hero Designer will allow you to purchase a 0d6 Killing Attack, and apply modifiers to it to effectively convert your STR into an Advantaged KA... but that isn't actually a legal construct. HD only allows it because the +1 pip and 1/2d6 options are check boxes, and making a 1 pip or 1/2d6 KA would be impossible otherwise.

 

The closest legal equivalent would be a 1 DC Advantaged KA with a STR min of 5 or more.

 

I'll second the views above that there is no rules legal method for making the BODY Damage of a Normal Attack Penetrating, legally you have to use a KA to cause Penetrating BODY.

 

As a house rule, I could see permitting a Normal Penetrating Normal Attack to cause 1 point of Penetrating BODY (and STUN) per 3d6 Normal Damage instead of causing 1 point of Penetrating STUN per 1d6 Normal Damage.

[dsatow]

Question: Why not just build it as a HA AVAD NND (Only vs. Non-Living Objects) Does Body?  This would allow you to destroy any object eventually but will not affect combat against villains so would be probably GM acceptable.  What is the reason it has to be penetrating?

[Ninja-Bear]

4 hours ago, dsatow said:

Question: Why not just build it as a HA AVAD NND (Only vs. Non-Living Objects) Does Body?  This would allow you to destroy any object eventually but will not affect combat against villains so would be probably GM acceptable.  What is the reason it has to be penetrating?

Because their martial arts are so powerful that even normal defenses take some body.

[dsatow]

1 hour ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Because their martial arts are so powerful that even normal defenses take some body.

 

But can't that be described for just about any powerful character?

 

Silver Surfer's blasts are so powerful that even normal defenses take some body.

Superman's punches are so powerful that even normal defenses take some body.

 

Are all his attacks penetrating or just this attack?  What the difference between this penetrating attack and a normal full power punch?  

 

Please note, I am not trying to be difficult.  I am just trying to understand.  I take in a lot of what people describe on these boards and use them or a version of them in my own games.  I'd like to know why the build is different than just doing straight dice to describe a powerful martial art?

[Ninja-Bear]

Dsatow sorry about my last response. I know your trying to be helpful. I was initially just trying to have a powerful attack instead of several powers. In the game that I’m basing this on, the player can break a reinforced door on a 1-2 on a D6.  So I wondered, could I put does Body on a Normal Dice attack so if he hits a door in Hero terms, he may not bust the door but some Body would get through and weaken the door for the next blow or two. So by Raw I can’t. That’s fine, unto plan B. Traditionally Iron Hand is bought as AP and if I use the optional rule for bare hands bend steel, I might have a winner.