Batman builds/STR Chart/NCM

[massey]

Watch an Arnold movie.  Most of the strength related things that he does in them are impossible in real life.  Arnold in the best shape of his life can't flip over a car.  But some of his characters can.  It doesn't matter what the real world restrictions are, because we are modeling fiction.

 

Batman is the same.  While the Michael Keaton or Adam West (straight 15s) versions of the character are legitimate, so is the late 90s JLA Batgod.

[Hugh Neilson]

Well, if we insist Bats must have NCM, I have a partial answer, at least pre-6e...

 

DEX, No Figured CHAR.  Now it is limited, so n doubling for exceeding the NCM max.

 

I need a SPD limitation, because no way Bats only has a 4 SPD.  Maybe some limitation on using SPD for movement, so he can't outrun a race car.

 

Buy some STR that does not increase Lift and we solve two problems at once.

 

Now he is "following the rules" for a normal human to pay double for stats above NCM, unless they are limited, so it's all good, right?

[Pattern Ghost]

14 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

I need a SPD limitation, because no way Bats only has a 4 SPD. 

 

Give him SPD, only to abort to defensive actions, since he tends to burn a lot of phases on diving for cover when he's playing with the big boys anyway. To simulate offensive SPD, just build AOE powers or move bys or levels wit sweep maneuvers, or any other trick for dealing with gangs of mooks.

[Ninja-Bear]

On 4/30/2018 at 10:24 AM, massey said:

Watch an Arnold movie.  Most of the strength related things that he does in them are impossible in real life.  Arnold in the best shape of his life can't flip over a car.  But some of his characters can.  It doesn't matter what the real world restrictions are, because we are modeling fiction.

 

Batman is the same.  While the Michael Keaton or Adam West (straight 15s) versions of the character are legitimate, so is the late 90s JLA Batgod.

I disagree with the Batgod. We are talking about Cinematic level for Humans. (Good point about Arnie).   So no, not all versions are acceptable.

[Hugh Neilson]

10 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

I disagree with the Batgod. We are talking about Cinematic level for Humans. (Good point about Arnie).   So no, not all versions are acceptable.

 

To me, we are discussing a Batman who, in the source material, is a highly driven, highly trained human who can achieve feats few, if any, other normal humans could achieve.  That source material includes BatGod - his origin did not get retconned to being a Kryptonian in disguise, but remained a highly driven, but still ultimately normal, human being.  So I would say all versions are acceptable if the goal is to cover all versions of the source material.

 

I can certainly decide that certain source material is not what I want in my game, so that source material (and hence anything derived from it) is unacceptable.  I can just as easily decide there is no intelligent life on other planets in my game, so you can't play Superman, Green Lantern, Hawkman or the Martian Manhunter.  That's a campaign specific selection, not a lot different from saying you can't play a superhero in a gritty espionage campaign, or that you can't play an Elven Sorceror in a 1930's mystery men Pulp game.

[massey]

10 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

I disagree with the Batgod. We are talking about Cinematic level for Humans. (Good point about Arnie).   So no, not all versions are acceptable.

 

No, we aren't talking about cinematic levels.  We are talking about a superhero RPG.  Batfleck performed feats that no human could even remotely accomplish.  He threw guys 30 feet through the air with one hand.  He threw guys through brick walls.  That's not possible.  But it looked cool and it's definitely one interpretation of Batman.  If somebody says "I wanna play Batman just like in that movie", I'm supposed to tell him that he can't?  Somehow that's not allowed?

[RDU Neil]

3 hours ago, massey said:

If somebody says "I wanna play Batman just like in that movie", I'm supposed to tell him that he can't?  Somehow that's not allowed?

 

To Hugh's point, you certainly could say, "No" to that kind of Batman... but based on a campaign where that level of Batman wouldn't fit. Not because of "right" source material vs. "wrong" source material. For example, if I was running a 30's Pulp style, costumed crime fighter type campaign, I'd probably request a toned down version of Doc Batshadow! to play closer to human, because that was the expected feel of the game... whereas a modern superteam on the level of Bronze Age Avengers who has NightBatHawk, then sure, the Batfleck could be a fine model.

 

It is the criteria for what is acceptable that we have to be clear about... and to me it is about "campaign expectations" rather than arguing over the correct source material interpretation. Usually the latter gets people talking past each other, rather than the former, which gets people agreeing one what they want the ultimate game play to be.

[Ninja-Bear]

Ok I might have misunderstood Batgod. I thought Batgod was the version where Batman could hold his breath in Space with no helmet. Btw I haven’t seen Batfleck however if he is doing martial arts style fighting which is incredible but not Wuxia style then that’s a different genre expectation of “Normal”.

[Ninja-Bear]

Btw if a version of Batman has god in it, then to say that to consider him as even Cinematic normal is misplaced. 

[massey]

Beginning (as far as I know) in Grant Morrison's run on JLA in the late 1990s, Batman experienced a power-up.  Many fans referred to this version of the character as the "Batgod", because of what appeared to be clear favoritism towards the character.  During this series, Batman pulled off seemingly impossible feats on a regular basis.

 

It was during this time that Batman defeated 4 White Martians by himself.

He had a high enough PRE to intimidate both Green Lantern and the Flash.

He had plans to take down every member of the Justice League, prepped and ready to go.

He was so smart that he knew every plot as it developed.  Batman was always the person to tell the rest of the team what was happening.

He was stealthy enough to sneak up on Superman.

He has whatever gadget he needs, whenever he needs it (from batarangs that are low-yield nukes to teleportation equipment).

 

Much of the book is basically The Batman Show.

[massey]

5 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Ok I might have misunderstood Batgod. I thought Batgod was the version where Batman could hold his breath in Space with no helmet. Btw I haven’t seen Batfleck however if he is doing martial arts style fighting which is incredible but not Wuxia style then that’s a different genre expectation of “Normal”.

 

This is the best scene in the movie.  Gives you an idea of what power level he is.

 

 

[RDU Neil]

Huh... that was awful.

 

And I mean... from an action POV... that was terrible. Zero tactics... zero stealth... just a brawler in a Batsuit... and terrible choreography... moves slowly and awkwardly...

 

Weird... I've never seen BvS or JL... and I thought maybe at least the action in them was good, even if the stories weren't... but that was just awful. Iron Man tended to be more stealthy and tactical.

[Cassandra]

16 hours ago, RDU Neil said:

Huh... that was awful.

 

And I mean... from an action POV... that was terrible. Zero tactics... zero stealth... just a brawler in a Batsuit... and terrible choreography... moves slowly and awkwardly...

 

Weird... I've never seen BvS or JL... and I thought maybe at least the action in them was good, even if the stories weren't... but that was just awful. Iron Man tended to be more stealthy and tactical.

 

Marvel movies have a more real world feel even when Ant-Man is picking up airplane wings.

[bubba smith]

picking up airplane wings is REAL??

[Cassandra]

Looked that way.

[Cassandra]

Now if they could use some of that special effects magic to make Scarlet Witch's accent sounds less Count Chocula.

[dsatow]

Any fictional character with multiple authors will have different representations for the characters abilities.  I would suggest, in order to have a better discussion, select a single author/writer's version of Batman and use that.

[dsatow]

18 hours ago, RDU Neil said:

Weird... I've never seen BvS or JL... and I thought maybe at least the action in them was good, even if the stories weren't... but that was just awful. Iron Man tended to be more stealthy and tactical.

 

Like this stealth mission ... 

 

 

 

[Ninja-Bear]

On 5/3/2018 at 11:16 AM, massey said:

 

This is the best scene in the movie.  Gives you an idea of what power level he is.

 

 

Thanks for sharing but I don’t see that version as Batgod. I mean Jackie Chan could’ve taken out those thugs quicker! Taking two shits behind the head and NOT passing out, is definitely in Cinematic Range. And on the high side at that but that was to show you how determined he is. Punching thru the wall? Well that is plaster and lathe so again well within cinematic range. But for Batgod? I don’t think by what you described upthread this is. 

[Ninja-Bear]

19 hours ago, RDU Neil said:

Huh... that was awful.

 

And I mean... from an action POV... that was terrible. Zero tactics... zero stealth... just a brawler in a Batsuit... and terrible choreography... moves slowly and awkwardly...

 

Weird... I've never seen BvS or JL... and I thought maybe at least the action in them was good, even if the stories weren't... but that was just awful. Iron Man tended to be more stealthy and tactical.

What do you mean it wasn’t tactical? He came in blazing and started to mentally affect them. That’s why they were horrible fighters.  Batman is out numbered and out gunned and I presume he was in a time constraint. It was a nice change of pace. Though him blowing up trucks was kinda surprising. (I did like the part where his cape is used against him but then showed later that it is useful.)

 

Anyways that’s my take on it and fwiw, I have weird tastes in movies.

[Pattern Ghost]

On 5/2/2018 at 6:39 AM, Hugh Neilson said:

you can't play an Elven Sorceror in a 1930's mystery men Pulp game

 

Yeah, but now I want to, dang it.

[Ninja-Bear]

What if the elf is disguised as a human and acts as a stage magician but has real magic? 

[Greywind]

On 5/3/2018 at 11:08 AM, massey said:

Beginning (as far as I know) in Grant Morrison's run on JLA in the late 1990s, Batman experienced a power-up.  Many fans referred to this version of the character as the "Batgod", because of what appeared to be clear favoritism towards the character.  During this series, Batman pulled off seemingly impossible feats on a regular basis.

 

It was during this time that Batman defeated 4 White Martians by himself.

He had a high enough PRE to intimidate both Green Lantern and the Flash.

He had plans to take down every member of the Justice League, prepped and ready to go.

He was so smart that he knew every plot as it developed.  Batman was always the person to tell the rest of the team what was happening.

He was stealthy enough to sneak up on Superman.

He has whatever gadget he needs, whenever he needs it (from batarangs that are low-yield nukes to teleportation equipment).

 

Much of the book is basically The Batman Show.

 

Morrison's Batman was primarily the brain, tho. He had plans for everything, which was also shown in his own books when Spoiler started War Games. He wasn't the guy that would improvise going in.

[RDU Neil]

18 minutes ago, Greywind said:

 

Morrison's Batman was primarily the brain, tho. He had plans for everything, which was also shown in his own books when Spoiler started War Games. He wasn't the guy that would improvise going in.

 

I always joked that JLA Batman was "the GM's character" because he only worked from an RPG perspective if he had all the inside knowledge on what the GM planned to do, thus could always seem perfectly prepared for every situation.

[massey]

Mechanically, JLA Batman can work as long as you understand that he's got a lot of "skilled powers".  Danger Sense, any area, any danger, discriminatory with analyze.  Maybe give it an "extra time" limitation.  Give Batman some time to go over into the corner and think about things, and he'll figure out what is causing all the bad stuff.  Now for most games, something like Detect Plot is not appropriate.  But that's the power that he had.  He may not have punched as hard as other characters, but he was easily one of the most effective characters in that campaign.