How to Build: Vorpal weapons?

[zslane]

PSLs to offset the OCV penalty for a Placed Shot to the Head alone will not guarantee beheading, which seems to be the raison d'etre of this weapon. You still have to do enough damage to exceed resistant defenses and kill the target.

 

In D&D, you roll your d20 and the GM (or sometimes, the mechanics as in this case) decides the narrative interpretation of that die roll. For a Vorpal Sword, rolling a 20 doesn't merely invoke your typical "okay, what should this critical hit be described as?" moment. It forces the GM to say something like, "Your sword strikes the neck, and the sword magically comes to life, cutting the head clean off in a single blow". Was the PC aiming for the head? Not by way of explicit player choice, no. But in D&D, the results will dictate the cause, after the fact (old-school saving throws are a good example of this). By rolling a 20 with a Vorpal Sword, the scene is described retroactively as the hero chopping a head off in a single blow, and whether or not the GM says it was by PC intent or just sheer luck, is actually immaterial to the result, and is left to his narrative judgment.

 

It's different in the Heo System if you use Placed Shots, but not if you use strictly random Hit Locations. By going with random Hit Locations, you capture some of the arbitrariness of D&D combat, which seems to be central to integrating weapons like the Vorpal Sword into the game experience. But is that really what you want when you use the Hero System? It really depends on what the GM is going for.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Was the PC aiming for the head? Not by way of explicit player choice, no. But in D&D, the results will dictate the cause, after the fact (old-school saving throws are a good example of this). 

 

Well, and a round in D&D isn't blow by blow like Hero is, its more abstracted combat over a time period, like a turn of fighting in Hero terms.  In AD&D the round was a minute long, lots going on in that time period.  At some point the sword went near the head and took it off.

 

One could always argue that the Vorpal Sword magically and intentionally goes for head shots too, and just define it as a weapon with lots of levels only to hit the head.

[sentry0]

I wonder if a compound power HKA/Levels with an activation would be appropriate.  The more powerful the vorpal the higher the activation would be.

 

You could even add a trigger that fires off on a failed activation so that the user would still get a normal go at hitting the target.

 

Seems OP but the venerable Vorpal Weapon is too ?

[zslane]

As a GM, I would go through the following procedure:

 

Step 1: Decide if the campaign will use Placed Shots or random Hit Location rolls.

Step 2: Decide if Vorpal Effect should occur as a result of a Critical Hit or a hit to the Head location (or both).

Step 3: Determine highest BODY creature in the campaign that can be killed by decapitation.

Step 4: Adjust the build I provided depending on decisions made in steps 1-3.

 

[Vanguard]

On 5/11/2018 at 4:22 PM, Ninja-Bear said:

There is. Make an absolute. In this case it should be expensive. But doable. Before anyone argues that there are no absolutes in Hero, i’ll note that in CC under No Absolutes there is a line that you can still make one under GM discretion naturally.

 

The APGs also have some rules concerning Absolutes . . So it can be a thing in Hero.  Just needs the GM to be willing is all.

[Ragitsu]

On 5/14/2018 at 10:20 AM, zslane said:

By rolling a 20 with a Vorpal Sword, the scene is described retroactively as the hero chopping a head off in a single blow, and whether or not the GM says it was by PC intent or just sheer luck, is actually immaterial to the result, and is left to his narrative judgment.

 

By my reckoning, if you're knowingly fighting with a vorpal weapon, you're playing for keeps. It IS a battle to the death*.

 

* Well, certain demographic exceptions aside...

[Trencher]

How about adding +10HKA only vs creatures who dies if they loose their head or have heads, and only when you roll a natural 3?

[MrAgdesh]

On ‎5‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 1:25 PM, Lucius said:

I'd go back to the source material:

...

Gygax decided "vorpal" meant "tends to behead easily" but that is not at all obvious to me from the poem; in fact, the meaning of "vorpal" is pretty obscure...

 

So perhaps I'd give a "vorpal" weapon a combination of Armor Piercing, Penetrating, Reduced Negation, and some extra damage.

 

 

Or maybe Vorpal is just + vs Jabberwockys?

 

Reminds me of an old D&D character with a Sword of Hobbit Slaying and a Wand of Polymorph (to Hobbit)
 

 

[Lucius]

On 5/21/2018 at 5:08 AM, MrAgdesh said:

Reminds me of an old D&D character with a Sword of Hobbit Slaying and a Wand of Polymorph (to Hobbit)

 

I might let him attack a dragon that way once, but I don't know if I'd let him make a Hobbit of it.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And a polymorphed palindromedary

[Toxxus]

 I would model the sword as +8 Penalty Skill Levels to hit area 4 (the neck).

 

Give it base sword stats (+1 OCV, 1d6+1 HKA, Str Min 13)  with an additional +2d6 HKA triggered by a critical hit roll.

 

Then add limitations to the PSLs, base HKA and crit-triggered HKA:

• All attacks must be called shots for the head.
• Non-crit rolls do damage as though they had hit a random body part (roll hit location normally and ignore the called shot results unless you crit).

This way every swing is a called shot to the neck, but you only see the result on a critical hit.

[Lucius]

 

What Gygax has done, apparently can't be undone.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Riding a palindromedary back to face the jabberwock

[Christopher]

On 5/11/2018 at 10:46 PM, Ragitsu said:

Is it possible to faithfully represent the D&D 3.5e vorpal weapon property in HERO 6th Edition?

 

--- --- ---

 

 

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm

 

Question 0: Should you replicate it at all?

D&D is a setting where Revival magic and even "I'll be back" effects are very commonplace.

The Vorpal sword had a pretty high "Bonus equivalency cost". So it was a high level item. A item for a time when Revival was avalible for everyone.

 

Question 1:

The "natural 20 only + confirm" part means "5% per attack, if the attack hits".

Either roll a D20 with every attack or map the propability to a 3D6 roll:

14+ is a 6.94%

15+ is a 4.62%

 

Mechanics wise, this weapon has a "Instant Death" effect. D&D has a number of those on the higher levels, but Hero lacks those by design.

If you are the GM, you could propably add one using the "Absolute Effect Rule" (6E1 133). I adivse against having such a effect, but I still needed to mention it for completeness.

Just any high enough damage or a continuation of the disable and impairment rules could do it.

 

Somebody else mentioned using the Hit Locations. If the campaign does use Hit locations, adding "OCV, only for a called shoot for the head" or PSL to aim for the head would do some serious damage at x2 killing body.

If the game does not use hit Locations, what you need to go for is just a plain bunch of extra DC to add to the attack (in case the activation roll succeeded)

Even without a guaranteed death effect, that amount of Body damage will propably get you way into bleeding territory.

[Duke Bushido]

"Those idiot typesetters!

 

Opal!  The word was 'OPAL!'

Morons!"

    --- C.S. Lewis

 

 

 

 

[Toxxus]

I would absolutely recommend against an instant death effect, but having the sword automatically hit the neck (with a little extra HKA that only activates on crits) gets the job done w/out being an absolute effect.

 

It's possible that someone with sufficiently heavy plate armor and mystical defenses of their own could survive such a hit.

 

Absolute effects, imo, are one of the big failings of D&D.  That being said - even in D&D getting decapitated is a big deal.  You cannot be Revived or even Raised since you are missing a head unless your DM is feeling generous and lets your party plunk your severed skull back on your neck stump.  Most DM's are going to have you in Resurrection territory which is very expensive and high enough level to be problematic for most parties.

[Old Man]

On 5/16/2018 at 7:48 AM, Vanguard said:

 

The APGs also have some rules concerning Absolutes . . So it can be a thing in Hero.  Just needs the GM to be willing is all.

 

Only a Sith...

 

Anyway I personally have some issues with absolutes in Hero.  Usually this can be adequately modeled with sufficiently great (and expensive) active points.  But I might argue that a one-meter vorpal blade would have a hard time decapitating a dragon with a three-meter neck.

 

The way I have modeled vorpal in the past is +HKA only vs. location 4 (if using hit locations) or activation 5- (if not).  Here I assume that vorpal blades are sharper vs. necks, not more accurate vs. necks. 

 

Next up: How to model a vorpal warhammer.

[Christopher]

On 2/4/2019 at 3:18 PM, Toxxus said:

Absolute effects, imo, are one of the big failings of D&D.  That being said - even in D&D getting decapitated is a big deal.  You cannot be Revived or even Raised since you are missing a head unless your DM is feeling generous and lets your party plunk your severed skull back on your neck stump.

That is a mater of perspective.

 

https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/raise-dead

As I read it:
As long as you have the head (in the proper place) when casting the spell, it should just count the "cut neck" as a mortal wound.

If the enemy stole the head, then you have to retrieve it or use a higher level spell. Same way if the target was dead for more then 10 days or had been turned into an undead.

[Vanguard]

On 2/4/2019 at 6:34 PM, Old Man said:

 

Only a Sith...

 

Anyway I personally have some issues with absolutes in Hero.  Usually this can be adequately modeled with sufficiently great (and expensive) active points.  But I might argue that a one-meter vorpal blade would have a hard time decapitating a dragon with a three-meter neck.

 

The way I have modeled vorpal in the past is +HKA only vs. location 4 (if using hit locations) or activation 5- (if not).  Here I assume that vorpal blades are sharper vs. necks, not more accurate vs. necks. 

 

Next up: How to model a vorpal warhammer.

 

Sorry about the belated reply.  I don't make it to the Hero boards as often as I used to . . 

 

Anyway, I totally agree and it's one of the many reasons I like hero.

 

I detested the absolutes found in D&D and it's cousins due to the fact that, like you, some of the things just didn't make sense.  To use your example, not only would it have that issue but how would you actually manage to get close enough TO the neck to sever the head?

 

The other reason I don't like them is I was, too often, on the receiving end of them.  Save vs Death or Die.  And death ensued.

[Killer Shrike]

Assuming you pretend that I make the usual warnings re: beware of absolute effects...

 

You can build a large dice of effect, all or nothing HKA. Build up the effect you want and apply something like All or Nothing (Does No Damage If It Does Not Kill/Destroy Target; -2), flavor to taste. This also works for other absolute kill effects from D&D such as Disintegrate.

 

If you want to further dial in the "neck hit" bit, you can keep going. There is no "neck" Hit Location, and you may not be using Hit Locations in the first place, but you could apply a limitation to impose a penalty to hit to simulate "neck"; -8 to hit would be a good starting point following the model of the head locations. How much of a limitation that is worth would be something you'd have to decide for yourself, but looking at Requires A Roll as a model for lowered probability of activation, and assuming a vanilla attack roll would be 11- and -8 puts that at a "natural 3" you could conceivably start with the value for a 3- Activation, which for an instant power would go below -2 and floor out at -2.

 

This would give you a sword that either hits the neck and kills or does nothing. Kind of gimmicky, but maybe entertaining the first couple of times it procs.

 

Feels unsatisfying to me though.

 

Alternatively you could buy a base KA to represent the typical normal effect of a sword when a target's neck is not hit, and then buy an additional power to apply to that base effect with +Xd6 KA and some combination of "only if hit roll made by 8 or more", and "only if target has an identifiable neck and would be killed by this extra damage". 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Anyway I personally have some issues with absolutes in Hero.  Usually this can be adequately modeled with sufficiently great (and expensive) active points.  But I might argue that a one-meter vorpal blade would have a hard time decapitating a dragon with a three-meter neck.

 

Meh, its not the blade that decapitates, its the magic of the blade.  And the vorpal sword doesn't do nothing when it fails to decapitate, it just does its normal damage.

[pawsplay]

If you want to define it, as in the source material, as a weapon that somehow magically ends up chopping off a head, I'd go with +1d6 HKA plus enough naked Armor Piercing advantage to cover the whole attack, with the Limitations Cannot Use Targeting (-1/2) and Requires a Roll (must hit the Head location -1 1/2). With Hit Location multipliers, this should be more than enough to take out most "normal" opponents. Instead of the Armor Piercing route, you could make the extra damage be a NND attack (defense is having no neck, or having a neck 2m or more in thickness, or not having vital organs). This is one case, however, where I don't think it's worthwhile to try to be too literal with a conversion. 

Basically, it's a weapon that is not generally more effective against armored opponents, but on occasion, does a hideous amount of damage capable of overwhelming the toughness and armor of even a very powerful foe. I would probably just bump the damage a bit, add Penetrating, add some Lightning Reflexes for flavor (representing the blade's overwhelming speed as well as power), and call it a day. 

[Lucius]

2 hours ago, pawsplay said:

If you want to define it, as in the source material, as a weapon that somehow magically ends up chopping off a head,

 

Well let's go back to the source material:

C.S. Lewis' Jabberwocky

 

The word vorpal appears twice:

 

"He took his vorpal sword in hand;
   Long time the manxome foe he sought—"

 

"One, two! One, two! And through and through
   The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
   He went galumphing back."

 

Gygax decided "vorpal" meant "tends to behead easily" but that is not at all obvious to me from the poem; in fact, the meaning of "vorpal" is pretty obscure and before I encountered the word again in D&D I always thought it referenced some imaginary metal like adamantium or mithril. It could also reasonably be a style of blade, like longsword or broadsword.

 

Note that "He left it dead and with its head He went galumphing back" could easily mean he slew the monster, than beheaded it post-mortem; there's no reason I see to conclude that he definitely slew it by cutting off the head.

 

All the poem tells us is that if you go "one two! one two!" with it, it will go "through and through" and go "snicker-snack!"  This does not really distinguish it from any other sword in the hands of a capable warrior courageous enough to brave "the jaws that bite" and nimble enough to evade "the claws that catch." At most, it suggests that the sword easily cuts through the hide, flesh, and bone of a jabberwock. Or of "The Jabberwock" as it seems possible the monster was singular and unique.

 

So perhaps I'd give a "vorpal" weapon a combination of Armor Piercing, Penetrating, Reduced Negation, and some extra damage. Or maybe just make it a Sword of Jabberwock Slaying

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary is experiencing deja vu

 

 

[pawsplay]

I would define the source material, squarely, as AD&D. 

[Lucius]

11 hours ago, pawsplay said:

I would define the source material, squarely, as AD&D. 

 

Dungeon Master's Guide, 1979

 

Through the Loking Glass, 1871

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And a palindromedary, 1991

[Toxxus]

On 4/14/2019 at 6:38 AM, Lucius said:

 

Well let's go back to the source material:

C.S. Lewis' Jabberwocky

 

The word vorpal appears twice:

 

"He took his vorpal sword in hand;
   Long time the manxome foe he sought—"

 

"One, two! One, two! And through and through
   The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
   He went galumphing back."

 

Gygax decided "vorpal" meant "tends to behead easily" but that is not at all obvious to me from the poem; in fact, the meaning of "vorpal" is pretty obscure and before I encountered the word again in D&D I always thought it referenced some imaginary metal like adamantium or mithril. It could also reasonably be a style of blade, like longsword or broadsword.

 

Note that "He left it dead and with its head He went galumphing back" could easily mean he slew the monster, than beheaded it post-mortem; there's no reason I see to conclude that he definitely slew it by cutting off the head.

 

All the poem tells us is that if you go "one two! one two!" with it, it will go "through and through" and go "snicker-snack!"  This does not really distinguish it from any other sword in the hands of a capable warrior courageous enough to brave "the jaws that bite" and nimble enough to evade "the claws that catch." At most, it suggests that the sword easily cuts through the hide, flesh, and bone of a jabberwock. Or of "The Jabberwock" as it seems possible the monster was singular and unique.

 

So perhaps I'd give a "vorpal" weapon a combination of Armor Piercing, Penetrating, Reduced Negation, and some extra damage. Or maybe just make it a Sword of Jabberwock Slaying

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary is experiencing deja vu

 

 

 

Fortunately for all of humanity that brief period when it was artistically in style to intentionally use non-sense words in poems was very brief.

 

I tried scouring the internet for hours trying to find some of those before I found out the author (and others in that time frame) intentionally made up their own words - which meant nothing - for these types of poems.

 

Classically I have gone with one of two variations for this type of weapon.

Flat OCV bonus between +4 and +6 only to hit the neck.

Flat OCV bonus of +8, only to hit the neck, only works on a critical hit, side effect:  Roll normally on hit location table if non-crit.

[Tech]

Ragitsu, why create the sword? In more detail, who is the sword going to be used by and in what kind of campaign? Is the campaign dark, light-hearted, etc? Assuming the sword is created, is coming back from 'deceased' possible? Is the bad guy going to use it, and if so, are you ready for the reactions of the players when you kill their hero? If a hero has it, are you prepared for your villains to be kicking the bucket?