How to Build: Dancing weapons?

[Ragitsu]

Chris, if that sword of yours was grabbed/grappled, which ability would it use to break free?

[Funk Thompson]

17 minutes ago, Ragitsu said:

Chris, if that sword of yours was grabbed/grappled, which ability would it use to break free?

 

STR vs. STR contest.

 

I'd also not give the sword much in the way of INT and such.  But, again, that is up to the creator.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Chris, if that sword of yours was grabbed/grappled, which ability would it use to break free?

 

That exact thought occurred to me.  As built, it has zero Strength and would immediately just be taken if grabbed.  Which maybe is good according to the magic: it loses its dancing ability of grabbed and just becomes a sword (probably should be an accidental change if so).  Others brought up some good thoughts as well: Cassandra's physical limitation (my build lets the sword interact with things, as if it has hands) for example.

 

Quote

The Sword could simply be wielded by an ghost soldier that only those with Mental Awareness can perceive.  The Sword isn't really flying but being carried.

 

Which is an alternate build: a desolid, invisible bearer using their skill and power (with affects solid on the blade).  In this case its not so much  magically animated as just held by someone.

 

Incidentally the flight also helps the sword pass over things on the floor like traps and snares, without triggering them, as it should if it is truly a sword floating in the air.

[Funk Thompson]

26 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Incidentally the flight also helps the sword pass over things on the floor like traps and snares, without triggering them, as it should if it is truly a sword floating in the air.

 

I had not considered this.

 

I would still put a "must stay close to the ground" limit on flight for any Dancing Sword I made.

[Ninja-Bear]

28 minutes ago, Funk Thompson said:

 

I had not considered this.

 

I would still put a "must stay close to the ground" limit on flight for any Dancing Sword I made.

That sounds reasonable.

[Cassandra]

2 hours ago, Funk Thompson said:

 

STR vs. STR contest.

 

I'd also not give the sword much in the way of INT and such.  But, again, that is up to the creator.

 

The INT is for the Sword can perceive the target.

[Christopher R Taylor]

OK here's an upload of an updated Dancing Sword, and also here is a potential Sword Bearer character that follows the sword around and wields it when called upon.  The bearer is utterly invisible and intangible, but can affect the real world with his strength (only to wield the sword) and when is not doing so, clings to the sword owner masslessly (intangible) waiting until called upon.  If the sword is destroyed, the wielder very rapidly dies.  If the wielder is damaged or killed, they will come back to wield the sword again, eventually.  They can even follow and find the sword if separated somehow from it, and it is close enough.

 

The advantage of the bearer build is that it doesn't require anyone to buy anything.  The sword is just the magical sword, the thing that makes it dance is not an enchantment of the sword but rather the wielder being tied to it, a ghostly form that carries it and fights with it.  The wielder is fragile and easy to harm, but very difficult to affect and heals rather quickly from any amount of damage, unless the sword is destroyed.

 

Sword Wielder

 

Val    Char   Cost    Roll     Notes

  13    STR       3       12-      Lift 151.6kg; 2 ½d6 [4d6 normal]

  13    DEX      6       12-      OCV:  5/DCV:  3

  10    CON      0       11-

  10    INT        0       11-      PER Roll 11-

  10    EGO      0       11-      ECV:  2 - 3

  10    PRE       0       14-      PRE Attack:  2d6  (25 presence vs presence attacks)

 

   5     OCV     10     

   3     DCV      0      

   2     OMCV -3     

   3     DMCV  0      

   3     SPD      10                  Phases:  4, 8, 12

 

   2     PD          0                   Total:  2 PD (0 rPD)

   2     ED         0                   Total:  2 ED (0 rED)

   8     REC      4

  30    END      2

  10    BODY   0

  20    STUN    0       Total Characteristic Cost:  32

 

Movement:    Running:  12m/24m

                         Leaping:  4m/8m

                         Swimming:  4m/8m

 

Cost   Powers                                                                                       END

47      Ghost Form:  Desolidification  (affected by Spirit magic),    0

           Persistent (+¼), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +½) (70

           Active Points); Always On (-½) 

10      Ghostly Hands:  Reduced Endurance (0 END; +½), Affects    0

           Physical World (+2) (32 Active Points); Only to wield

           sword (-1) applied to STR                                                                             

67      Ghost Form:  Invisibility to Sight, Hearing, Mental, Smell/     0

          Taste and Touch Groups, Detect and Spatial Awareness ,

          No Fringe, Persistent (+¼), Reduced Endurance (0 END;

          +½) (101 Active Points); Always On (-½)

16      Ghostly Form:  Life Support  (Eating: Character does not     0

          eat; Self-Contained Breathing; Sleeping: Character does

          not sleep) 

10      Bold:  +15 PRE (15 Active Points); For defense only (-½)  

22      Find Sword:  Detect A Single Thing 14- (Unusual Group),     0

          Penetrative, Range, Telescopic:  +1

27      Recovery:  Regeneration (1 BODY per Week), Can Heal        0

           Limbs, Resurrection (no recovery if sword destroyed)

15      Sword Bearer:  Clinging (normal STR), Affects Solid             0

          World (+2) (30 Active Points); Only to hold on to sword

          owner (-1)

 

           Skills

1         WF:  Blades

3         Climbing 12-

 

Total Powers & Skill Cost:  208

Total Cost:  240

 

Points    Matching Complications

  25         Psychological Complication:  Totally loyal and obedient to sword owner (Very Common; Total)

  25         Susceptibility:  Every phase after sword is destroyed 3d6 damage per Phase (Uncommon)

  25         Psychological Complication:  Stay near the sword and bearer (Very Common; Total)

 

Total Complications Points:  75

 

I admit I got a little complicated in the build, more so than absolutely necessary, but I realized that the cost of the wielder was really irrelevant; no one needed to summon the wielder or pay for him in any way.  He's just attached to whatever sword the GM chooses as an NPC.

Dancing Sword (wielded).hdc

Dancing Sword .hdc

[tiger]

The sword itself could be a Automation with summoning and gestures or incantations attached. The summoning part could be when you use the sword. Gesture would be drawing and releasing the sword., Incantation for the command word the sword would have to start "dancing"

[Christopher R Taylor]

The base sword could be pretty simple:

 

+1 OCV, d6+1 base longsword.  Give it +1 OCV and +1 Damage Class enchantment for total +2 OCV and 1½d6 damage KA vs PD.  Strength Min for a longsword should realistically be 10 but its probably higher in the official printed books, don't have them with me right now.  Give that OAF and Real Weapon for -1½ limitation for the damage and CV.  Then the multiform of 57 points (+5 for instant change) from sword to dancing sword listed above, and put gestures and OAF on that (could add incantations for a little cheaper real cost).  Total of 97 active points and 41 real points.  Its a pretty expensive sword even with complications to offset the cost its going to be kind of powerful for a campaign.  But, that's a nice weapon.

[Ninja-Bear]

Thanks Brian1874! That was the sword I was thinking of.

[tiger]

Don't know if it's been mentioned but you could make it a multi-form. Basic form is the sword and the multi-form would be an automation

[Cantriped]

13 hours ago, tiger said:

Don't know if it's been mentioned but you could make it a multi-form. Basic form is the sword and the multi-form would be an automation

Technically, Foci aren't legal Forms for Multiform. Even as a house rule it has to deal with a lot of problems... Foci don't have a SPD score, and therefore have no phases with which to activate Multiform. Nor do they have a BODY score so you'd need to adjudicate how damage transfers.

[Ninja-Bear]

Cantriped if you get a chance to look at Champion Powrs for 6th, Steve Long bought the Nega-beam as a character.

[Cantriped]

5 hours ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Cantriped if you get a chance to look at Champion Powrs for 6th, Steve Long bought the Nega-beam as a character.

I'm not sure how Nega-Beam is relevent, besides being highly illegal and abusive. It is the second most terribly written power I've ever seen (the first being Captain Chronos in general and his NND Entangle specifically). Nega-Beam uses Summon to create a "Character" that represents an Attack.

 

HERO System should have long since included an Advantage for representing Homing attacks... so that we did not require such an atrociously built construct to represent a fairly common trope. For Example:

 

Homing (+1/4): Allows the Attack to function similarly to a heat-seeking missile. If a Homing Attack misses its target, it will bank around and attempt to attack the target again next phase (using the same OCV it initially attacked with). A character must normally pay END to maintain a Homing Attack (but needn't take any further action to maintain it). A Homing Attack is considered to have a number of meters of Flight equal to its maximum range. Homing Attacks have a normal Turn Mode (unless it takes No Turn Mode) and must obey all of the standard rules for acceleration/deceleration; meaning that it is fairly easy to block homing attacks (compared to other ranged attacks) or trick them into hitting something else (a Sucker Attack).

[Amorkca]

I really like your Homing advantage Cantriped.

 

Would you allow some type of Counter Measures against it?

[Christopher R Taylor]

I've built a homing variant like that, it had a cost and build structure somewhat like DOT with how many attempts it made and how quickly it would seek.  The simpler the better, though.  Uncontrolled would allow the thing to go without being aimed (for as many phases as END was paid, natch) otherwise I'd say the person who fired it would have to steer it into targets.  That makes it kind of expensive, but its an attack that keeps trying and you can fire one off every phase if you have uncontrolled on it (or, with autofire, a host of them each phase).

[IndianaJoe3]

Has anyone tried the Self-Controlled Focus rules from APG2?

[Lucius]

Homing Attack:  (Total: 26 Active Cost, 26 Real Cost) Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6, Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates, Trigger can expire (it has a time limit), Two activation conditions apply simultaneously, Misfire; Trigger Conditions: "at will" and "when an attack has just missed last phase"; +3/4) (26 Active Points) (Real Cost: 26)

If at first it doesn't succeed, it will try, try again.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says that when Lucius wrote "an attack has just missed" he means to imply, "With this Power specifically"

[Cantriped]

1 hour ago, Lucius said:

Homing Attack:  (Total: 26 Active Cost, 26 Real Cost) Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6, Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates, Trigger can expire (it has a time limit), Two activation conditions apply simultaneously, Misfire; Trigger Conditions: "at will" and "when an attack has just missed last phase"; +3/4) (26 Active Points) (Real Cost: 26)

If at first it doesn't succeed, it will try, try again.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says that when Lucius wrote "an attack has just missed" he means to imply, "With this Power specifically"

"At-Will" isn't a legal trigger condition, as it must be easily verifiable and needing to use an expensive and unreliable mental power like Telepathy to detect the trigger condition is not "easy". A similar, but legal conditions are "Snapping Your Fingers" or saying "Go Go Magic Bullet" (conditions I would also include Gestures or Incantations to simulate)

Also the trigger relies on senses the target possesses, so it cannot Hone In on Hidden or Invisible enemies. You also need Indirect, since the subsequent "activations" don't originate from the Character.

 

Personally that is a lot of modifiers to represent what is essentially a single modifier that is strictly worse than the power being either Constant or Indirect.

*Both Constant and Homing powers cost END to maintain; but the former lets you deal damage across multiple phases with one attack roll, while the latter only allows you to make multiple consecutive attempts to damage the target once.

 

An Indirect (Origin Varies; +1/2) Attack has all the actual advantages of a Homing Attack, but without any of the limitations (like costing END or Continuing Charges to maintain, being dispellable, and easily suckered, etc).

 

2 hours ago, IndianaJoe3 said:

Has anyone tried the Self-Controlled Focus rules from APG2?

I have, while they are great on paper, because they give Foci a full suite of characteristics (most importantly Size, Mass, and BODY). In practice they are way, way too complicated, and can significantly reduce the value of Foci without any real return in usability. It was a great idea that was very poorly executed.

There are also notation and support issues. Hero Designer does not support expanded Foci, meaning you have to use custom modifiers (which just discourages me from using that crutch anyway). Also, including all the elements Expanded Foci includes bloats even simple objects into full character sheets (or unreadable blocks of text that need extensive annotation).

 

I like the idea enough that I spent months working up a fairer (and easier to adopt) version of Expanded Foci. The main changes (from normal foci) is that my rules treat Foci almost exactly like any other Object (meaning using this system any Hero System Object can be converted into a focus). In use this means you  have to define and note the Foci's Size and Mass (in addition to extant traits like Obviousness). Mass is used to determine the Foci's starting BODY (DEF calculation remains unchanged). Note that Objects don't lose powers when damaged, they work like Objects and are nonfunctional at zero BODY, and destroyed at their negative BODY.

Under this system a converted Foci's value rarely changes. The value goes down if the Foci is very large (as that makes it easier to see and hit), very heavy (as that eats into your encumbrance and affects moving the item), or very Fragile (has half the BODY and DEF it should, or less) or Complex (acquires an Activation Roll when damaged, just like Complex Objects). The value only rises if the Foci is very Durable (twice the DEF amd BODY).

[Hugh Neilson]

5 minutes ago, Cantriped said:

"At-Will" isn't a legal trigger condition, as it must be easily verifiable and needing to use an expensive and unreliable mental power like Telepathy to detect the trigger condition is not "easy". A similar, but legal conditions are "Snapping Your Fingers" or saying "Go Go Magic Bullet" (conditions I would also include Gestures or Incantations to simulate)

Also the trigger relies on senses the target possesses, so it cannot Hone In on Hidden or Invisible enemies. You also need Indirect, since the subsequent "activations" don't originate from the Character.

 

Personally that is a lot of modifiers to represent what is essentially a single modifier that is strictly worse than the power being either Constant or Indirect.

*Both Constant and Homing powers cost END to maintain; but the former lets you deal damage across multiple phases with one attack roll, while the latter only allows you to make multiple consecutive attempts to damage the target once.

 

An Indirect (Origin Varies; +1/2) Attack has all the actual advantages of a Homing Attack, but without any of the limitations (like costing END or Continuing Charges to maintain, being dispellable, and easily suckered, etc).

 

I think this is oversimplified, but I like the idea of an attack which tries again until either it hits or it runs out of steam (toss on Physical Manifestation and you can also KO the ongoing attack).

 

Constant allows an attack that hits once to keep doing damage without further attack rolls, but stunning or KOing the power user, loss of LoS or changing slots in a framework all shut it off.  If all of these will also shut off your Homing Power, then a hit on the first attack "wastes" Homing, but it also "wastes" Constant, which would not have kept trying in each subsequent phase until it succeeds.  Maybe for +1/4, it tries again once, doubled for each additional +1/4, requiring no further attention from the user (maybe even no ongoing END - the END to fire the initial attack is still flying around). 

 

You could make a Homing Constant Uncontrolled attack - once it hits, it keeps going for as long as the END you dumped in to power it.

[Cantriped]

I like the simplistic "+1/4 per additional attempt" that doesn't require maintainance (it makes missile builds much simpler), and stacks nicely with duration and other modifiers. All it needs is the standard "you must define a reasonably common method of evasion" clause.

[Lucius]

4 hours ago, Cantriped said:

"At-Will" isn't a legal trigger condition, as it must be easily verifiable and needing to use an expensive and unreliable mental power like Telepathy to detect the trigger condition is not "easy".

 

*shrug* If you prefer then you can have one Trigger condition and buy a separate Power that represents the first shot. Just as if you want an attack that hits and does damage and then does damage again at intervals, you can buy a regular attack and a linked Damage Over Time attack.

 

4 hours ago, Cantriped said:

 

Also the trigger relies on senses the target possesses, so it cannot Hone In on Hidden or Invisible enemies.

 

I believe you have a typo here and meant to say "senses the character possess" that is, senses belonging to the character buying the Trigger Power. If that is what you meant, the question becomes: can the character tell that they missed? If they are trying to hit an invisible target and can't tell if they hit or not, then the Trigger won't activate. If they can one way or another determine that they did not hit, the Trigger would activate.

 

4 hours ago, Cantriped said:

 You also need Indirect, since the subsequent "activations" don't originate from the Character.

 

 

I am not sure about this. If I plant a mine and walk away from it, I don't need "Indirect" for the eventual attack to originate from the mine. If I place a spell on a wand that activates by command word and leave it on a table and walk across the room and shout the command word when someone is between me and the wand, I don't think I need Indirect. So I'm not at all convinced I need Indirect in this case - or if I do, it should be mandatory with any Trigger.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Relying on senses the palindromedary possesses

 

 

 

[Cantriped]

41 minutes ago, Lucius said:

I believe you have a typo here and meant to say "senses the character possess" that is, senses belonging to the character buying the Trigger Power.

Yes.

 

41 minutes ago, Lucius said:

I am not sure about this. If I plant a mine and walk away from it, I don't need "Indirect" for the eventual attack to originate from the mine.

The Mine is typically a no range triggered attack, it is originating from where you were positioned when the trigger was set (i.e. when you planted the mine).

 

The homing attack needs Indirect because when triggered the attack doesn't originate from where the character set it, but from some arbitrary position, usually behind the target and any Barriers they made to protect themselves.

 

41 minutes ago, Lucius said:

If I place a spell on a wand that activates by command word and leave it on a table and walk across the room and shout the command word when someone is between me and the wand, I don't think I need Indirect.

I think that wand needs Indirect (Origin Is Wand; +1/4) and Incantations to be activated (usefully) from across the room. especially since you could abuse that to hide behide a barrier. Wands in D&D typically have to be held, pointed, and then spoken at to activate.

[Lucius]

2 hours ago, Cantriped said:

Yes.

 

The Mine is typically a no range triggered attack, it is originating from where you were positioned when the trigger was set (i.e. when you planted the mine).

 

The homing attack needs Indirect because when triggered the attack doesn't originate from where the character set it, but from some arbitrary position, usually behind the target and any Barriers they made to protect themselves.

 

I think that wand needs Indirect (Origin Is Wand; +1/4) and Incantations to be activated (usefully) from across the room. especially since you could abuse that to hide behide a barrier. Wands in D&D typically have to be held, pointed, and then spoken at to activate.

 

 

The command word was defined as the Trigger condition. To take an Incantations Limitation for that strikes me as a little munchkin.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says that doesn't mean Lucius won't do it, but it will feel a little dirty

[Cantriped]

Not really munchkin because...

With Incantations you have to speak clearly (making it Obvious to Hearing), and an enemy can hold to action to hit you with any attack to interrupt activation. Without Incantations you could whisper it, and as long as the wand hears you it will Trigger (your wand uses your Hearing from its position, modified by range) (making it Inobvious to Hearing), and the enemy has to use a Voice Flash or Darkness to Hearing to prevent the wand from triggering (or Dispel the activation). I think it deserves the discount because you are still accepting an additional restriction, and one that reinforces the SFX of the power no less.

 

I can see reasons to build it either way, but the D&D model of wands would use Incantations I am certain...