WH40K Hero

[knasser2]

Actually, "WH40K Hero" sounds wrong. I think for this setting the game system should be renamed "Protagonist" or perhaps "Least Awful". :D

 

But humour aside, I'm taking a stab at building WH40K in Hero 6E. I've seen a couple of other people do bit of 40K in Hero and I think the system can work very well for it. Better than the Dark Heresy / Rogue Trader / Death Watch game systems did. I love the amount of nuance that Hero can bring to the setting. 40K is very weapons-heavy for example. A system that just says "Lasgun does 2d6, Boltgun does 2d6 and -2 to Armour, Plasma gun does 4d6... and so forth," doesn't reflect it well enough. Whereas in Hero, the Bolter can have a high Strength Minimum to reflect its rocket-propelled ammo, the lasgun can do energy damage, the plasma gun can negate armour and have splash damage and so on. This nitty-gritty feel is very important to capturing the feel of WH40K. I also like very much the way I can build different tiered games with it. Everything in WH40K is going to be at Heroic rather than Superheroic level. But within that I can fairly easily further divide it into Inquisitor (gumshoe level heroes who can get stabbed in the back), Rogue Trader (Awesome people who are still essentially mortal) and Space Marine (genetically engineered perfect warriors with the best equipment the Empire can provide).

 

I think I'm going to have a dozen little questions so rather than flood the boards, I'm putting them all here. My first has to do with Armour Piercing.

 

I understand how it works mechanically but I lack the experience to tell how it will effect the game long-term and this is a foundational decision for how I implement weapons and armour. In the WH40K table top game it's a simple roll of your armour value or higher to negate damage and some weapons have an armour piercing value (-1, -2) to reflect their deadliness. In the FFG role-playing game, it's a flat damage reduction, much like in Hero. Again, you have some weapons that have AP values (-1, -2) that offset the armour. This is pretty critical element of the setting. People in power armour should be able to wade through las-pistol fire with a low chance of being harmed whilst shuriken weapons have a good chance of penetrating. Should I liberally scatter stacked Armour Piercing and Hardened qualities throughout my weapon and armour lists respectively? Is this a good approach? So for illustration purposes only you'd see something like:

 

Flak Armour (Defence 6)

Carapace Armour (Defence 9, Hardened)

Power Armour (Defence 12, Hardened x2)

Terminator Armour (Defence 12, Hardened x3)

 

Lasgun (2d6)

Boltgun (2d6, Armour Piercing)

Shuriken Catapult (2d6, Armour Piercing x2)

Shuriken Cannon (3d6, Armour Piercing x4)

 

And so forth. Basically, is throwing different ranks of AP and Hardening everywhere a good approach? WH40K is very combat and gear focused so one of the start points for my attempt is the guns and weapons. I want to pick the right way at the start as everything else will build on it.

 

Really appreciate any thoughts, even just general ones.

[eepjr24]

I think you are on the right track, although I would also look at penetrating and impenetrable. Depending on what version of 40k you are talking about, I seem to remember "saves" as well, which you might look at building either as additional body with an activation roll only when 0 body is reached or as resistant defense on an activation roll that prevents all but 1 body. 

 

Again, depending on version, I think there is also the idea of coordinated attacks exist so look into those as part of the more elite troop training. 

 

- E

[massey]

I'd suggest giving a little more variation in the weapon stats.  Be willing to over-estimate or under-estimate in order to get the right "feel".  I started on a 40K conversion some time ago, and what I found is that trying to follow the 40K game stats too rigidly resulted in a lot of weapons that felt very much the same.

 

For heroic level, I went with stuff like this (5th ediiton):

 

Quote

Space Marine

Str 18
Dex 18
Con 18
Body 12
Int 10
Ego 12
Pre 15
Com 10
PD 8
ED 8
Spd 4
Rec 8
End 36
Stun 30

+1 with All Combat
Breakfall 13-
Stealth 13-
Survival 11-
Tactics 11-
Teamwork 11-

Rapid Healing

Power Armor (all OIF)
--8/8 Armor
--LS: High/Low Pressure, Radiation, Heat/Cold, Self-Contained Breathing
-- +5 Str, no figured characteristics

Bolter (OAF)
--2D6+1 RKA, Autofire x3, 4 clips of 16 charges

Combat Knife (OAF)
--1D6+1 HKA

 

 

This guy will kill the crap out of Imperial Guardsmen (who should probably be competent normals at best).  He's tough enough to be really hard to kill, without being so overwhelming that he can't be taken down.  He is, after all, a faceless stormtrooper.  He's a powerful goon, but still a goon nonetheless.

 

Compare him to an Aspect Warrior

 

Quote

Howling Banshee

Str 15
Dex 21
Con 15
Body 10
Int 10
Ego 15
Pre 15
Com 14
PD 6
ED 6
Spd 4
Rec 6
End 30
Stun 26

10" Running

+2 with All Combat
Acrobatics 13-
Breakfall 13-
Paramedics 11-
Sleight of Hand 13-
Stealth 13-
Survival 11-

Fast Strike
Martial Block
Legsweep
Martial Escape

Aspect Armor (OIF)
--6/6 Armor

Power Sword (OAF)
--HKA 1D6+1 (2D6 with Str) Armor Piercing

Shuriken Pistol (OAF)
--2D6-1 RKA, Autofire x3, 125 Charges

Banshee Mask (OIF)
-- +25 Presence, only for presence attacks, only when moving into HTH combat

 

The marine is generally tougher, but the aspect warrior has a decided advantage in its chosen field.

 

For the record, I'd make lasguns something like a 1 1/2D6 RKA, 250 Charges.  They're reliable and dependable, but individually they aren't that great.  And maybe power armor provides 8/8 protection, but it's a 15- activation roll.  If it fails the activation, it's only 4/4 or something (you hit a vulnerable joint)..  

[massey]

As far as levels of armor piercing and hardening, I wouldn't worry about it too much.  I played 40K from 2nd edition through 5th, and I saw stats change quite a bit.  In 2nd edition, plasma guns were high strength, sustained fire (basically autofire), but had weak armor penetration.  They were good for wounding big critters.  In 3rd edition, they became high strength, really good penetration.  But then in 4th, Terminators got invulnerable saves to help against plasma guns.  40K has never really found it's balance point with that.  I understand in the new edition, things have changed again.

 

I made Terminator Armor 14/14, and didn't bother hardening it.  I figured the high Def would be enough by itself.  I made the Iron Halo a 5/5 Force Field, Hardened, but gave it a 14- Activation Roll (that's not the 50% chance of the 4+ invulnerable, but an extra 5 Def isn't as good as just outright ignoring attacks, either).

 

I think my full Imperial Guard weapon list is on a different computer, but I'll look when I get home today and see if I can find it.

[knasser2]

1 hour ago, eepjr24 said:

I think you are on the right track, although I would also look at penetrating and impenetrable. Depending on what version of 40k you are talking about, I seem to remember "saves" as well, which you might look at building either as additional body with an activation roll only when 0 body is reached or as resistant defense on an activation roll that prevents all but 1 body. 

 

Again, depending on version, I think there is also the idea of coordinated attacks exist so look into those as part of the more elite troop training. 

 

- E

 

Penetrating and Impenetrable seem like they'd be a great additional axis for weapons / armour. For example, I could add Penetrating to weapons like Thunder Hammers which even if they don't penetrate I could see rattling you around in your armour like an egg in a steel box. Similarly, Impenetrable would be a great quality for Terminators and Dreadnoughts.

 

I haven't got to the stage of tactics and similar, but you're saying there could be group tactics abilities that characters could purchase? WH40K is quite militaristic. It's entirely likely that you'd have the entire party comprised of Imperial Guard (regular army) or Space Marines (super soldiers) so special squad tactics, if there's a way to do this, would be amazing. Is there any way you could do this in Hero? Lets say hypothetically something like "Coordinated Fire Defence" - something each character participating would have to buy and let you do something like give a boost to each participating squad member? Or "Concentrated Fire" that let you combine attacks to overcome an opponents high armour. E.g. if a Space Marine Squad were working together to take down a dreadnought (stupidly tough things)?

[knasser2]

Massey - those sample stats are great. I'm actually thinking I'll pitch Space Marines a little higher. I've been reading some of the Chris Wraight 40K novels and I see Space Marines as less elite mooks (aka table top version) and more heroic individuals. I want them to not be superheroic, but to have very little in the way of weaknesses. Able to fight for hours, yet still could theoretically be killed by a well-placed bolter shot or concentrated las fire. My provisional power break down for starting CP is as follows:

·         Inquisitorial Play: 175 points

·         Rogue Trader Play: 225 points

·         Space Marine Play: 275 points

 

I'll set some characteristic minimums (especially in the case of Space Marines). Whilst that may seem low, WH40K is quite gear focused and I expect people to be able to obtain weapons appropriate to the tier of play. So a Space Marine character wont necessarily have to include Power Armour in their 275 points. (Anyone see a problem with that?)

 

I notice you gave both the SM and the Howling Banshee Spd 4, btw. I was thinking Spd 2 for most "human" characters, and Eldar might have Spd 3. (Banshees with 4 might work. They'd be pretty terrifying but then they're supposed to be).

[knasser2]

16 minutes ago, massey said:

As far as levels of armor piercing and hardening, I wouldn't worry about it too much.  I played 40K from 2nd edition through 5th, and I saw stats change quite a bit.  In 2nd edition, plasma guns were high strength, sustained fire (basically autofire), but had weak armor penetration.  They were good for wounding big critters.  In 3rd edition, they became high strength, really good penetration.  But then in 4th, Terminators got invulnerable saves to help against plasma guns.  40K has never really found it's balance point with that.  I understand in the new edition, things have changed again.

 

I made Terminator Armor 14/14, and didn't bother hardening it.  I figured the high Def would be enough by itself.  I made the Iron Halo a 5/5 Force Field, Hardened, but gave it a 14- Activation Roll (that's not the 50% chance of the 4+ invulnerable, but an extra 5 Def isn't as good as just outright ignoring attacks, either).

 

I think my full Imperial Guard weapon list is on a different computer, but I'll look when I get home today and see if I can find it.

 

I'm basing it primarily on the FFG role-playing games for stats, modified by lore where necessary. So the crazy variable history of the table top game I'm sheltered from, thanks!

 

14/14 sounds okay for Terminator armour. Perhaps a little low for mine, but I'm still working out weapon damages. This is a very preliminary draft (so not everything makes sense, like the ranges which are still just flat numbers and I'm just eyeballing some numbers at this stage).

[knasser2]

I need to come up with some sort of approach to implementing reliability for weapons. Something that lets me make las weapons (a firearm you can literally throw the charge pack in your campfire to recharge it in extremes) highly reliable and things like autoguns (modern day SMGs) less so. That lets me do things like have Space Marine bolters be highly reliable and Imperial Guard ones the sort of thing that might back fire and take your arm off.

 

So the axes of win-lose that I'm teasing out at the moment are:

• Damage - Armour. (The basis for everything)
• Armour Piercing - Hardened. (A common way differentiator for weapons)
• Strength Minimum (Going to make a lot of use from this. E.g. a shuriken pistol has very little recoil, a bolt pistol is like holding a panicking jackrabbit)
• Penetrating - Impenetrable. (Used less often and only for the really awesome gear like Terminator armour and Autocannon)

I need to think seriously about how I'm going to handle autofire, as well.

[Cantriped]

Using Armor Piercing and Hardened is a good way to establish an "Arms Race" without actually increasing the lethality of these weapons against unarmored opponents. There is also a per-point version of Armor Piercing (called Piercing in Dark Champions, but I think it reprinted in one of the APGs).

Relative CV modifiers are also a good way to differenciate between gear. Then most powerful could even have excessive penalties commonly bought off by experienced users to make the weapons feel more specialized.

[knasser2]

3 minutes ago, Cantriped said:

Using Armor Piercing and Hardened is a good way to establish an "Arms Race" without actually increasing the lethality of these weapons against unarmored opponents.

 

I think that's what I want. The ability to have a squad of Space Marines battling their way through an endless horde of cultists whilst at the same time not making them insanely different from the human baseline. (Just awesome).

 

There is also a per-point version of Armor Piercing (called Piercing in Dark Champions, but I think it reprinted in one of the APGs).

 

That sounds potentially better. Well, simpler. My feeling is that the current half-armour deal might be best though because it creates tiers of play a little. Halving armour makes a battle between two Space Marines more even whilst still creating a sort of power step between them and an Imperial Guardsman with his flashlight lasgun.

 

Relative CV modifiers are also a good way to differenciate between gear. Then most powerful could even have excessive penalties commonly bought off by experienced users to make the weapons feel more specialized.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Abilities for the character that make them better with a particular weapon? I can see that being a useful ability but it feels separate from power-balancing the weapons.

 

Incidentally, is there any way to switch to writing replies in BB markup rather than WYSIWYG? I don't know how to split up quotes in this.

 

 

[Funk Thompson]

I think what he is saying is that you can give some gear an inherent CV penalty (say, Terminator Armor = -5 DCV) and that the elite soldiers will have Penalty Skill Levels to offset said penalty.

That way, you don't have some schmuck climbing into a suit of Terminator armor and becoming equally bad-ass.

[Cantriped]

2 minutes ago, knasser2 said:

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Abilities for the character that make them better with a particular weapon? I can see that being a useful ability but it feels separate from power-balancing the weapons.

I'm not especially familiar with the setting, but what I mean is that a given weapon (lets call it the Heavy Missile Rifle) could take a severe Side Effect (or other Limitation) that normally makes the weapon practically useless unless the character has more than just familiarity with the weapon.

For example, the Heavy Missile Rifle has a built-in targeting computer that makes the weapon very difficult to learn how to operate; it takes a side effect imposing an additional OCV penalty, and the character "learns how to operate the weapon properly" by buying off the OCV penalty with PSLs.

 

1 minute ago, Funk Thompson said:

I think what he is saying is that you can give some gear an inherent CV penalty (say, Terminator Armor = -5 DCV) and that the elite soldiers will have Penalty Skill Levels to offset said penalty.

That way, you don't have some schmuck climbing into a suit of Terminator armor and becoming equally bad-ass.

Yes this too.

[knasser2]

1 minute ago, Funk Thompson said:

I think what he is saying is that you can give some gear an inherent CV penalty (say, Terminator Armor = -5 DCV) and that the elite soldiers will have Penalty Skill Levels to offset said penalty.

That way, you don't have some schmuck climbing into a suit of Terminator armor and becoming equally bad-ass.

 

Oh, that makes sense. My unfamiliarity with Hero showing! Yes, that would be helpful. In the specific case of Space Marine armour (power or Terminator), you can't use it according to the fluff without the right spinal implants. But there are other sorts of power armour and similar cases with other equipment. I can see how this would be useful. Thank you both.

 

(Although the Gretchen with a Storm Bolter scenario is kind of funny. )

[knasser2]

2 minutes ago, Cantriped said:

I'm not especially familiar with the setting, but what I mean is that a given weapon (lets call it the Heavy Missile Rifle) could take a severe Side Effect (or other Limitation) that normally makes the weapon practically useless unless the character has more than just familiarity with the weapon.

For example, the Heavy Missile Rifle has a built-in targeting computer that makes the weapon very difficult to learn how to operate; it takes a side effect imposing an additional OCV penalty, and the character "learns how to operate the weapon properly" by buying off the OCV penalty with PSLs.

 

Perfect. It's more appropriate than you realise because technology in WH40K is archaic and treated with religious awe. Lasguns are designed to be incredibly robust and simple. Basically, put some poor kid in a uniform, press a lasrifle into his hands and make him charge at the enemy. Whilst something like a plasma gun probably has about eighteen different buttons and dials on it that the owner doesn't dare touch because his great-grandfather once pressed one and it spoke to him High Gothic.

 

I think that would be more useful for vehicles than guns in general, but there are definitely some great cases where it would be useful. Thanks a lot for this idea.

[Cantriped]

At the highest end of difficulty, equipment can start Requiring Rolls to activate. For example, the Heavy Missile Rifle could have half a dozen different modes (multipower slots). Changing modes requires a Missile Rifle Familiarity Roll (bought as a Power Skill), and if you fail the roll the slot changes randomly (a Minor Side Effect I think; roll 1d6 to determine slot)... In some cases, if you fail excessively you trigger the self destruct mechanism (an additional Side Effect that triggers if you fail by a given value, such as 4 or more, and causes an AoE Attack centered on the weapon.

[knasser2]

23 minutes ago, Cantriped said:

At the highest end of difficulty, equipment can start Requiring Rolls to activate. For example, the Heavy Missile Rifle could have half a dozen different modes (multipower slots). Changing modes requires a Missile Rifle Familiarity Roll (bought as a Power Skill), and if you fail the roll the slot changes randomly (a Minor Side Effect I think; roll 1d6 to determine slot)... In some cases, if you fail excessively you trigger the self destruct mechanism (an additional Side Effect that triggers if you fail by a given value, such as 4 or more, and causes an AoE Attack centered on the weapon.

 

You say you're not familiar with the setting but whilst this is probably too much for Imperial weaponry, it's oddly reminiscent of the 2nd edition rules for orks. Ork mekboys would sometimes have to roll for random results such as their Shokk Attack Gun which teleported snotlings (think tiny goblins) right up to the enemy to prevent them getting shot whilst trying to get close. Random rolls would have them appearing inside enemy vehicles, inside enemy armour (!) or on the very odd occasion, inside the enemy. There was also, iirc, a bouncing bomb. (Literally, it would bounce around the battlefield before detonating) and an anti-gravity weapon called the Lifta-Droppa. Which lifted enemies high into the air before cutting out and letting Mistress Gravity do her thing.

 

I'll save this for orks but I'll use the CV modifiers for xenotech (alien weaponry) and maybe some of the more esoteric Imperial weaponry. It might be useful for Space Marine weaponry to stop regular people using it as well, although Strength Minimums will also help there. Thank you for this.

[Cantriped]

I was mostly thinking of the eighteen buttons you don't press because your great-grandfather warned you one of them speaks in High Gothic. I've never played WH40K, or read any of the literature, so my familiarity is entirely second-hand.

[knasser2]

36 minutes ago, Cantriped said:

I was mostly thinking of the eighteen buttons you don't press because your great-grandfather warned you one of them speaks in High Gothic. I've never played WH40K, or read any of the literature, so my familiarity is entirely second-hand.

 

It's one of the most extraordinary settings ever created. It segues from insane comedy to the blackest of themes and back again without ever really losing you as a reader. The novels range from bitter trench warfare to Machiavellian politics to Space Opera on a scale that would make Star Wars look like a one act play set in a small town bar. I pitched it to my players with "How'd you like to play Catholic Space Nazis rooting out free thinkers in galaxy-wide fascist regime?" (They said no so I rephrased it). It's theoretically fantasy in Space, but through a glass darkly.

 

The original RPG had three rough tiers of play, each their own game line. Dark Heresy, in which you played agents of the Inquisition and is so back-stabby and treacherous it's the only RPG I've ever seen that includes Audible Range as a weapon characteristic. Rogue Trader in which you play the captain and command crew of a giant trade ship (literally a thousand people aboard is a low number) and is a mix of wild space adventures and "uneasy lies the head that wears the crown". And finally there was Death Watch in which you played members of the different Space Marine chapters. The ultimate warriors of Man. Which was very much focused around missions to win victories against the many threats to humanity.

 

It's really an impossible setting to sum up, except perhaps to say it's the game that introduced the word "Grimdark" into the English language and if you want to see people in power armour slaying demons from the warp whilst being stabbed in the back by space elves, it's the game for you. There is literally a main battle tank in the game that has a giant altar and organ built into the back of it which shoots missiles from the organ's pipes. It's piloted by space nuns because the Ecclesiarchy was banned from maintaining a force of men at arms by Imperial Edict, so they created a battle force comprised solely by women to get around it.

[knasser2]

Wow. I'm creating some sample characters at different power levels so that I have something to work with in testing out weapons and armour levels. I'm going with the points values I had earlier and I'm having trouble spending them all in a way that I think is realistic for the character conception. For example, I'm creating a standard Imperial Guardsman (a typical soldier in the setting) and I seem to have successfully built him with just 66 points.

Joe Guardsman (66 POINTS)

STR 14
DEC 12
CON 14
INT 10
EGO 10
PRE 8

OCV 5
DCV 5
OMCV 3
DMCV 3

SPD 2
PD 4
ED 2
REC 5
END 30

BODY 10
STUN 20

Run 14m

Skills: Combat Driving, Concealment, Knowledge (IG Procedures), Language (Native world), Survival, Tactics, Teamwork, Transport Familiarity, Weapon Familiarity (Las-weapons)

Either I'm missing something (perhaps CSLs but they seem very odd and confusing to me) or I really need to adjust the standard points totals to account for the fact that equipment is provided. The above was supposed to be "Competent Normal" but he's not even close to needing 100 points.

[Ninja-Bear]

Grim Dark is putting it lightly! As TV Trooes points out. As horrible as the Imepirium of Man is. It’s still better than the alternative.

[knasser2]

1 minute ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Grim Dark is putting it lightly! As TV Trooes points out. As horrible as the Imepirium of Man is. It’s still better than the alternative.

 

Q. What's the difference between a Good Guy and a Bad Guy in WH40K?

A. When the Good Guy executes 1,000 people per day to consume their souls, he's doing it for a reason.

[Ninja-Bear]

Or you’re Just trying to buy the latest miniature!

[knasser2]

5 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Or you’re Just trying to buy the latest miniature!

 

I don't think anyone can afford GW's miniature prices any more. I think they're classed as a commodity now and people just trade in Futures on them.

 

If Bitcoin fails when the world's economy collapses, we'll survive by returning to gold, silver and Games Workshop character models.

[Cassandra]

I'm getting an ED-209 vibe.

[knasser2]

15 minutes ago, Cassandra said:

I'm getting an ED-209 vibe.

 

Ha ha! Well AIs are banned. Or perhaps more accurately can no longer be created. And for good reason. There's a historical period that details the "Iron Men" which was essentially when robots tried to enslave / wipe out humanity. So AIs were largely destroyed. That's one of the reasons the Imperium of Man is in such a mess technologically. There are tech priests and a lot of them actually do understand science (somewhat), but most of the technology was built with advanced AI / computers which they no longer have. It's like how you might understand all the principles of fusion and how you could create a magnetic containment field to hold the plasma in a torus, but without systems that can perform the thousands of computations per second to make it work, it doesn't matter. You can't build one. They've got all this incredible technology lying around and they can use it, but not build it. There are automated factories that churn out vital components necessary for war machines and nobody dares touch them or stop them to take them apart and examine them because they might not be able to start it up again. Imagine you have a computer that you don't know how to turn on. And it has all your vital work on it. And there is no backup.

 

There are actually some AIs still in existence. Of a limited kind. They call them "Machine Spirits" and try to please them. So if you accidentally activate your tank's auto-pilot and it starts careering across the landscape to some long-gone city with you stuck inside it, you've angered its machine spirit and you'd better hope there's a tech-priest around who can recite the Psalm of Manual Operation that will placate it. ?