WH40K Hero

[Lucius]

4 hours ago, Cantriped said:

Using Armor Piercing and Hardened is a good way to establish an "Arms Race" without actually increasing the lethality of these weapons against unarmored opponents. There is also a per-point version of Armor Piercing (called Piercing in Dark Champions, but I think it reprinted in one of the APGs).

.

 

Even without the APG it's possible to construct such a weapon feature.

 

Piercing, Ranged Weapon:  (Total: 22 Active Cost, 6 Real Cost) Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6 (standard effect: 3 BODY, 0 STUN), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (22 Active Points); Limited Power Does not damage: only for penetrating defenses (-1), OAF (-1), -2 Decreased STUN Multiplier (-1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4) (Real Cost: 6)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I get by with a little help from my palindromedary

[knasser2]

That's interesting Lucius. Good to have a reference as the next stage is to start building these properly now I have the desired stats.

 

Massey - I take it back. I originally pitched the terminator armour higher but I had to reign it in a bit in the end. That said, I have my power armour significantly above yours. I think that's because I don't want to directly reflect the table top outcomes. After all, in tabletop each turn actually represents many shots plus I want to shade this a little bit more towards the fluff. So whilst I want to keep what is possible in table top possible (someone with a lasgun killing a Space Marine), I want to make it the preserve of skill or fortune. I think with the stats I've worked out below I can have some heroic and skilled PC(s) with lasguns take down a Space Marine, whilst still have that same Space Marine slaughter their way through two dozen of the PCs' comrades in arms. I think Flak Armour + Lasgun vs. Flak Armour + Lasgun works fairly well.

 

What do people think for a start? You don't need to know the setting, just if there seems to be a reasonable power balance between the armours and the weapons? If I'm happy with this as an outline, I'll start building them properly and add all the extra little powers like strength boosts for Power Armour and deadly malfunctions for plasma weapons...

[Funk Thompson]

Give your sniper rifle +Max Range and Half RMod?

[knasser2]

6 minutes ago, Funk Thompson said:

Give your sniper rifle +Max Range and Half RMod?

 

Good call. I need to have a serious think about how to do ranges in this. Currently they're a cut and paste from the Dark Heresy game so I had a starting point. But I suspect they're based directly on the table top game as they seem like they are a little off in places. I'm fine with a pistol being 30m. Sniper Rifle at 200? Not so sure.

[Funk Thompson]

2 minutes ago, knasser2 said:

 

Good call. I need to have a serious think about how to do ranges in this. Currently they're a cut and paste from the Dark Heresy game so I had a starting point. But I suspect they're based directly on the table top game as they seem like they are a little off in places. I'm fine with a pistol being 30m. Sniper Rifle at 200? Not so sure.

 

Depends on how faithful you want to be to WH40K tabletop ranges, which, IIRC, were something similar to Battletech - super advanced space weapons with barely the range of late 18th Century muskets

[eepjr24]

Yeah, take a careful look at Range Modifiers (6e2 38). They can be pretty harsh, -4 to hit for 30 meters.

 

- E

[knasser2]

1 minute ago, Funk Thompson said:

 

Depends on how faithful you want to be to WH40K tabletop ranges, which, IIRC, were something similar to Battletech - super advanced space weapons with barely the range of late 18th Century muskets 

 

Unlike my faith in the Emperor, that which I place in table top rules is somewhat more finite.

 

Still. there are logical reasons for some of it. Bolters fire actual tiny, explosive-tipped rockets. They're self-propelled so who can say what their realistic range is. Las weapons are very sci-fi. Again, it's reasonable to be a bit negotiable on that. But autopistols, autoguns, heavy stubbers - these are our real world pistols, SMGs and machine guns.

 

Effective range of a pistol seems to be around 50m (massive generalization) which seems far to me. 30m seems alright but I might compromise and put it at 40m. With the range modifiers they'll already be at -6 by that point which is plenty. 100m seems the right effective range for an SMG (Autogun) so this is starting to look alright, actually. Sniper Rifle has 1,000m though which is way over what the book gives. I'm probably willing to compromise a little on realism here as melee combat is a big part of WH40K. Engaging your enemy from 1,000m makes that difficult. But then on the other hand, how often do I run adventures set in a featureless desert?

[Funk Thompson]

Pistols in reality are effective out to 100m or so, just...  good luck with aiming them that far.  Pistol marksmanship competitions are generally 25 yard and 50 yard divisions.

 

Modern sniper rifles can be effective out to 2km in some cases.

[knasser2]

24 minutes ago, eepjr24 said:

Yeah, take a careful look at Range Modifiers (6e2 38). They can be pretty harsh, -4 to hit for 30 meters.

 

- E

 

Yep! Exactly what I was just looking at. To be honest, I'm no longer that concerned about the short ranges. I'll boost up the sniper rifle as suggested and give it IMR and RMod. Maybe something for the mid-range weapons like Lasguns and Boltguns, too. On review, I'm not too worried about melee being diminished. If a fit human (14m Run) can almost cover 30m in a Turn, then it's not a problem. I mean, if Usain Bolt can run the 100m in under ten seconds, imagine what a Tyranid Hormagaunt can do. ?

[knasser2]

Anyone got any thoughts on the Imperial Guardsman I posted earlier. If not familiar with the setting, Imperial Guard are your regular army so just think standard soldier. He seemed to only cost 66 CP to get him to what seemed right so either I'm missing obvious things he needs or I need to scale back the points values in the book (he's supposed to be Competent Normal, 100CP) to account for the fact that this will be very Gear based.

[Ninja-Bear]

56 minutes ago, Funk Thompson said:

 

Depends on how faithful you want to be to WH40K tabletop ranges, which, IIRC, were something similar to Battletech - super advanced space weapons with barely the range of late 18th Century muskets

Well who has more than 6ft to spare? For minis that is.?

[Ninja-Bear]

For armor save, I was thinking you could have base armor + X more armor on an activation roll. Are you  using 6th? Perhaps a few dice of damage negation on an activation roll would be better.

[knasser2]

7 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

For armor save, I was thinking you could have base armor + X more armor on an activation roll. Are you  using 6th? Perhaps a few dice of damage negation on an activation roll would be better.

 

I am using 6th. Why would that be better? (This is not snark).

[Funk Thompson]

14 minutes ago, knasser2 said:

 

I am using 6th. Why would that be better? (This is not snark).

 

Damage Negation helps keep defense or attack values from having to escalate as far to provide adequate protection.

It can be a bit of a pain to work with (since advantaged attacks are more AP per DC; so -2 DC Negation is more like -1 DC on a +1 attack)

 

It also better simulates "limited invulnerability" - if you have, say, 10 DEF armor and -6 DC Negation, a 2d6k attack literally bounces off.  A 4d6k would be 2d6k and just barely able to put BODY past DEF.

 

I think DN works better in superheroic play to represent things like being invulnerable to small arms fire, but able to be hurt by a bazooka or anti-material rifle. 

[knasser2]

9 minutes ago, Funk Thompson said:

 

Damage Negation helps keep defense or attack values from having to escalate as far to provide adequate protection.

It can be a bit of a pain to work with (since advantaged attacks are more AP per DC; so -2 DC Negation is more like -1 DC on a +1 attack)

 

It also better simulates "limited invulnerability" - if you have, say, 10 DEF armor and -6 DC Negation, a 2d6k attack literally bounces off.  A 4d6k would be 2d6k and just barely able to put BODY past DEF.

 

I think DN works better in superheroic play to represent things like being invulngerable to small arms fire, but able to be hurt by a bazooka or anti-material rifle. 

 

I see. I can see the sense of it. But I don't think OCVs and DCVs will get too out of hand. Most play will be in the Heroic range (from Standard, Powerful and Very Powerful categories). You get some very heroic characters in WH40K and some naturally very skilled ones (Eldar Harlequins, Exarchs and Dark Eldar come to mind) and they'll push it up into the 10+ range. But in WH40K a lot of the power progression comes through deadlier and deadlier firepower.

 

I think DN is probably best kept for vehicles and vehicle-equivalents (like the larger Tyranids) in that case. I don't actually want Space Marines to be immune to small arms. Just immune in practice if that makes sense.

[knasser2]

I think to reflect that most "powers" are in devices which are typically provided or obtained in this setting, I'm lowering the CP points for each of the tiers down by one. So I'll have:

• Inquisition Tier: 100 CP
• Rogue Trader Tier: 175 CP
• Space Marine Tier: 225 CP.

I've now created a standard Space Marine. Please let me know what you think, especially if anyone has familiarity with WH40K. Note it's significantly more heroic than Massy's, earlier. Which is intentional. I want something closer to the books where they're more fight on for hours, run for days, Know No Fear types. These people start at around 7½' tall and have genetically engineered muscles, bone density, secondary heart... But they're still flesh and blood. Basically as good as advanced science can make them and still be human (ish).

 

Space Marine (193 CP);

STR 20
DEX 15
CON 20
INT 15
EGO 20
PRE 18

OCV 8
DCV 8
OMCV 3
DMCV 3

SPD 2
PD 9
ED 9
REC 9
END 50

BODY 20
STUN 40

Skills: Combat Driving, Concealment, Knowledge (Space Marine procedures), Knowledge (Chapter History), Knowledge (Xenos), Language (Native world), Stealth, Survival, Tactics, Teamwork, Transport Familiarity, Weapon Familiarity (Las-weapons), Weapon Familiarity (Bolt-Weapons)

Heightened Senses (Sight), Heightened Senses (Hearing) (+2 Per roll on each)

N.b. No Space Marine character may have any characteristic below 15.

Different chapters of Space Marines have different specialities and gifts, so I figure the remaining 32CP can easily find a home in minor abilities and extra skills.

 

Thoughts?

[Cantriped]

Regarding the Space Marine:
I would give him +3 Str, +3 Con, +1 SPD, +5 BODY, +10 STUN, and +40 END.

With genetically engineered muscles he should he stronger than a normal human can be, but only by enough to get an extra DC out it the heaviest melee weapons. Pretty much everybody has at least a 3 SPD (it is the suggested default value even if you choose to ignore the SPD Chart), and the extra END is because your Marine could easily spend 18 END per Turn (or -9 END per Turn after free Recoveries) just moving and attacking, and they should be able to last for at least a couple Minutes at that pace if they are supposed to be able to fight for hours. Either way, taking the occasional extra recovery (instead of moving and attacking that Phase) would let a 'marine fight almost forever, but LTE Rules will eventually wear them down... but less than a normal human thanks to that superior END and REC)

You've omited what TFs Space Marines have (they get a 1-point TF free with Combat Driving).

[eepjr24]

I think they need a package of skills to select from to show the variety of roles they can play, at least in some of the fluff. So for example, pick 2 from:

 

Combat Driving or Combat Piloting

Demolition

Electronics

Mechanics

Paramedics

Tracking

Weaponsmith (or equivalent weapon repair skills)

 

I suspect they would all have Navigation (Land) unless you are building something into the suit for that. If they have autofire weapons you probably want some penalty skill levels to offset the autofire penalties, possibly also some autofire skills for leaders or special teams. There are a number of Knowledge skills and Area knowledge you could throw in, depending on how much non-combat use they will get. 

 

I would probably lower their natural OCV / DCV, personally. They are skilled in a specific set of weapons and tactics, but those are better reflected with specific Combat Skill Levels for the most part to me. It is slightly more expensive in some cases but seems to fit the thematics more.

 

Their Presence is good, but you might consider a level or two of Striking Appearance. These guys are intimidating, in or out of armor. Environmental movement is another thing to consider, many terrain types do not slow them down like they would a normal human.

 

Just a few thoughts.

 

- E

 

[Ninja-Bear]

1 hour ago, knasser2 said:

 

I am using 6th. Why would that be better? (This is not snark).

Didn’t think you were snarking.  Asked about edition because damage negation is only available in 6th. I have used DN but in very limited dice. Perhaps no more than 2 Dice. And I guess I used it wrong, but I didn’t worry about advantages. 0ne DN takes care of one die. Just like in fantasy I don’t worry and recalculate STR min for adavantage. Whether a weapon is straight killing or AP, + 5 STR over STR Min adds 1DC of Killing. It just an idea. Also for Lasguns, have you considered red. pen. for Lasguns? That might work for good damage against unarmored but poor against armored.

[Ninja-Bear]

Knasser2 I often don’t recommend just buying a supplement out of hand. In this case though, for $1, in the Hero store is a PDF for Dark Champions where Steve Long updates his templates from 5th to 6th. Among the templates that you might find useful are military templates. Off the top of my head there are Basic military, Delta Force and Rangers and night even be SEALs. For a $1, you can’t go wrong.

[eepjr24]

32 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Knasser2 I often don’t recommend just buying a supplement out of hand. In this case though, for $1, in the Hero store is a PDF for Dark Champions where Steve Long updates his templates from 5th to 6th. Among the templates that you might find useful are military templates. Off the top of my head there are Basic military, Delta Force and Rangers and night even be SEALs. For a $1, you can’t go wrong.

I have that one and I agree. Well worth the money.

 

- E

[Old Man]

3 hours ago, Cantriped said:

Regarding the Space Marine:
I would give him +3 Str, +3 Con, +1 SPD, +5 BODY, +10 STUN, and +40 END.

With genetically engineered muscles he should he stronger than a normal human can be, but only by enough to get an extra DC out it the heaviest melee weapons. Pretty much everybody has at least a 3 SPD (it is the suggested default value even if you choose to ignore the SPD Chart), and the extra END is because your Marine could easily spend 18 END per Turn (or -9 END per Turn after free Recoveries) just moving and attacking, and they should be able to last for at least a couple Minutes at that pace if they are supposed to be able to fight for hours. Either way, taking the occasional extra recovery (instead of moving and attacking that Phase) would let a 'marine fight almost forever, but LTE Rules will eventually wear them down... but less than a normal human thanks to that superior END and REC)

You've omited what TFs Space Marines have (they get a 1-point TF free with Combat Driving).

 

IIRC Space Marines are so heavily genengineered they have spare vital organs.  I'm no expert on 40K but these stat bonuses look kind of low in that regard.

[Cantriped]

1 hour ago, Old Man said:

 

IIRC Space Marines are so heavily genengineered they have spare vital organs.  I'm no expert on 40K but these stat bonuses look kind of low in that regard.

The values I listed are in addition to the Space Marine described above (so 23 STR & CON, 25 BODY, etc).

[Ninja-Bear]

I was just poking around the ‘net and know one seems to know for sure how strong a Space Marine is. Just that he’s super humanly strong. So I’ll guess at 30 STR

[knasser2]

8 hours ago, Cantriped said:

Regarding the Space Marine:
I would give him +3 Str, +3 Con, +1 SPD, +5 BODY, +10 STUN, and +40 END.

With genetically engineered muscles he should he stronger than a normal human can be, but only by enough to get an extra DC out it the heaviest melee weapons. Pretty much everybody has at least a 3 SPD (it is the suggested default value even if you choose to ignore the SPD Chart), and the extra END is because your Marine could easily spend 18 END per Turn (or -9 END per Turn after free Recoveries) just moving and attacking, and they should be able to last for at least a couple Minutes at that pace if they are supposed to be able to fight for hours. Either way, taking the occasional extra recovery (instead of moving and attacking that Phase) would let a 'marine fight almost forever, but LTE Rules will eventually wear them down... but less than a normal human thanks to that superior END and REC)

You've omited what TFs Space Marines have (they get a 1-point TF free with Combat Driving).

 

4 hours ago, Cantriped said:

The values I listed are in addition to the Space Marine described above (so 23 STR & CON, 25 BODY, etc).

 

Okay. That makes more sense. I was going to say the same as Old Man. If you've ever seen Gods of Egypt, then the way they showed the gods against the mortals is about how the Primarchs (who are bigger than Space Marines again) roughly are. My reason for pitching it there was that I'm basing this on the guidelines in 6E1, pg.35. It listed the upper bounds of Heroic as Char 10-23 and as that's around the CP that I was using as my starting point, I figured 20 was about right. I wanted to leave a little room to grow. And according to the Strength chart, at 20 you can lift a grizzly bear / 400kg. That is lower than our real world deadlift record however (500kg).

 

The increase to STUN and END is interesting. I've been running Hero in a realistic fantasy setting and our END and STUN are much lower. There aren't guidelines for these by power level unlike other attributes so I guess I've been a bit off on what is normal. Should I also increase these for the Imperial Guardsman (a normal soldier) earlier, do you think?

 

I left TF and a few others blank for now because this is a provisional template. Different actual characters will have different particulars based on role (e.g. some might fly anti-grav vehicles, some bikes, some jetpacks, etc.).

 

Thanks for the help. I'll raise Speed then, but it will be across the board, not just for marines.