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Jason S.Walters

Champions Now Information

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On 8/30/2018 at 10:21 PM, Duke Bushido said:

I may be missing some important connection-- perhaps it is exclusively the inclusion of thematic art or settings that qualifies it as Champions, but isn't 6e Basic pretty much rules-light Champions?  Or Fantasy?  Or Sci-fi?

 

(of course, this may not be 6e; is there a version of 5e with 6e-style Characteristics?)

 

Yes, that's a good point. I guess this is technically true, and it's 6e, but it's still 130 pages. Then they bypassed it and went with Champions Complete instead (and Fantasy Hero as well). HERO Basic is long gone as far as I can tell.

 

I think maybe what many of us mean by a "Rules Lite" version of the game is more like 40 pages of rules, like e1, with the express purpose of being a brief introduction to Champions, or some other specific (rather than generic) genre. The rules would be baked into the genre without all the variations, etc., required for a generic set of rules. This would be an introduction, referencing the more developed 6e rules, but making it playable in very quick order for someone who is new to the system. It's all a pipe dream, really, but could be done. Some of us think it should be done. But Champions Now, although based on the 3e rules, is not it. It's something different, and changes some of the core rules (such as killing attacks, and body) dramatically.

 

Another example of a "Rules Lite" version would be something like GURPS Lite. Although still generic, it recently taught me the game in about 30 minutes so I could play it with my friends. Something like this, somewhere between the "Champions in 2 pages" PDF and Champions Complete, would be a great introduction for new folks without making their eyes swirl.

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On 9/1/2018 at 8:15 AM, Brian Stanfield said:

 

Yes, that's a good point. I guess this is technically true, and it's 6e, but it's still 130 pages. Then they bypassed it and went with Champions Complete instead (and Fantasy Hero as well). HERO Basic is long gone as far as I can tell.

 

I think maybe what many of us mean by a "Rules Lite" version of the game is more like 40 pages of rules, like e1, with the express purpose of being a brief introduction to Champions, or some other specific (rather than generic) genre. The rules would be baked into the genre without all the variations, etc., required for a generic set of rules. This would be an introduction, referencing the more developed 6e rules, but making it playable in very quick order for someone who is new to the system. It's all a pipe dream, really, but could be done. Some of us think it should be done. But Champions Now, although based on the 3e rules, is not it. It's something different, and changes some of the core rules (such as killing attacks, and body) dramatically.

 

Another example of a "Rules Lite" version would be something like GURPS Lite. Although still generic, it recently taught me the game in about 30 minutes so I could play it with my friends. Something like this, somewhere between the "Champions in 2 pages" PDF and Champions Complete, would be a great introduction for new folks without making their eyes swirl.

 

I've got to admit that my thought was that the "Rules Lite" version of Champions Now would not necessarily resemble the Hero System at all but would be a modern Indie RPG-style rule set designed to specifically create the same kind of experiences that Ron Edwards is tailoring 3E Champions to create.

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On 12/6/2018 at 12:24 PM, rjcurrie said:

 

I've got to admit that my thought was that the "Rules Lite" version of Champions Now would not necessarily resemble the Hero System at all but would be a modern Indie RPG-style rule set designed to specifically create the same kind of experiences that Ron Edwards is tailoring 3E Champions to create.

 

I agree. This is why I ultimately say it is not a rules lite version of 3e. It's really a whole different game in the end. In fact, I'm a little bit flummoxed at how the DOJ is allowing him to basically rewrite their intellectual property into his own game.

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4 hours ago, Brian Stanfield said:

 

I agree. This is why I ultimately say it is not a rules lite version of 3e. It's really a whole different game in the end. In fact, I'm a little bit flummoxed at how the DOJ is allowing him to basically rewrite their intellectual property into his own game.

Personally I still struggle to understand why it makes good business sense to build Champions Now on 3E. Isn't 6E supposed to be the Ultimate Toolkit to build a game, your game, with the feel you want, with that "thing" you want? Wouldn't Champions Now have been a great opportunity to demonstrate just that?

I am speaking a bit in a vacuum here since I haven't seen the Beta document. Any idea where I can access it?

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4 hours ago, DreadDomain said:

Personally I still struggle to understand why it makes good business sense to build Champions Now on 3E. Isn't 6E supposed to be the Ultimate Toolkit to build a game, your game, with the feel you want, with that "thing" you want? Wouldn't Champions Now have been a great opportunity to demonstrate just that?

I am speaking a bit in a vacuum here since I haven't seen the Beta document. Any idea where I can access it?

 

Because this is Ron's project, and...

 

On 7/1/2018 at 11:36 AM, Chris Goodwin said:

I would observe that the reason it was done with 3rd edition is that Ron is the one writing it, and that 3rd edition was the one that generated the play experiences he was looking to replicate.  I don't see any reason the techniques, and even some of the rules, wouldn't work with the edition of your choice.  (For the general "you" of course.)

 

It seems to be departing more and more from original Champions rules, becoming more of a game of Ron's own design that shares a lot of Champions DNA.  I haven't seen recent betas myself.  

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6 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

 

Because this is Ron's project, and...

 

 

It seems to be departing more and more from original Champions rules, becoming more of a game of Ron's own design that shares a lot of Champions DNA.  I haven't seen recent betas myself.  

Oh, I know why it's based on 3E. I still don't see how it makes good business sense. That it originates from 3E or 6E might be a moot point depending on how far it departs from the source material and if it becomes its own thing.

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On 1/23/2019 at 2:30 AM, DreadDomain said:

Oh, I know why it's based on 3E. I still don't see how it makes good business sense. That it originates from 3E or 6E might be a moot point depending on how far it departs from the source material and if it becomes its own thing.

 

I assume it was seen as a project that might appeal to some older Champions fans, maybe attract some fans to Hero from Ron's fanbase (and possibly the larger Indy RPG fanbase), and to be cynical, make some money off the Hero Games property without having to put in any time or effort.

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A lot of the inspiration for Champions Now came from essays in Champions II, Champions III and Strike Force rather than the core books.

 

6e has some comparable essays, but they don't tend to say the same things as the 3e ones.

 

The mechanical divergence means that the Champions Now drafts only resemble 3e more than 6e in terms of their length and specific focus on superheroes.

 

It's a different game.

 

Unfortunately, so was Fuzion.

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9 hours ago, assault said:

A lot of the inspiration for Champions Now came from essays in Champions II, Champions III and Strike Force rather than the core books.

 

6e has some comparable essays, but they don't tend to say the same things as the 3e ones.

 

The mechanical divergence means that the Champions Now drafts only resemble 3e more than 6e in terms of their length and specific focus on superheroes.

 

It's a different game.

 

Unfortunately, so was Fuzion.

And unfortunately not all backers have access to the beta so we are left in the dark.

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15 hours ago, DreadDomain said:

And unfortunately not all backers have access to the beta so we are left in the dark.

 

The main playtesting phase has pretty much ended, I gather, although Ron might still be interested in some new playtesters. Of course that means people who would actually use it, not just people who are curious.

Perhaps you could ask him. His website is here: http://adeptplay.com/

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10 hours ago, assault said:

 

The main playtesting phase has pretty much ended, I gather, although Ron might still be interested in some new playtesters. Of course that means people who would actually use it, not just people who are curious.

Perhaps you could ask him. His website is here: http://adeptplay.com/

Thanks Assault. If Beta is only for active playtesters, it's surely too late now as Ron is supposed to turn his manuscript.

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On 2/4/2019 at 6:30 PM, assault said:

A lot of the inspiration for Champions Now came from essays in Champions II, Champions III and Strike Force rather than the core books.

 

6e has some comparable essays, but they don't tend to say the same things as the 3e ones.

 

The mechanical divergence means that the Champions Now drafts only resemble 3e more than 6e in terms of their length and specific focus on superheroes.

 

It's a different game.

 

Unfortunately, so was Fuzion.

 

Outside of the art, I'm one of the few people who liked Fuzion. I never got to play Champions: New Millenium, but I really liked creating characters in that system. It just felt clean and streamlined in a way that HERO 3-5 never did.

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58 minutes ago, Andrew_A said:

 

Outside of the art, I'm one of the few people who liked Fuzion. I never got to play Champions: New Millenium, but I really liked creating characters in that system. It just felt clean and streamlined in a way that HERO 3-5 never did.

 

New Millennium, from what I'm told, wasn't _exactly_ Fusion, but was close enough you could pick it up if you were familiar with Fuzion at all, much the same way that if you were familiar with Justice, Inc, you could pick up any other game HERO had going at that time, I suppose.

 

I had no other experience with Fuzion, really (having already found Champions / HERO and liking that system enough to run pretty much everything I have ever played since on that platform), but I wanted to chime in to let you know that you have some support.  I think there were one or two of us on this board that like New Millennium.  I never really felt like it was "Champions," but I felt that the system was solid enough and easy enough to learn.  It just wasn't-- in my opinion, of course-- as good or as comfortable as the Champions system I had been using.

 

serious question:

 

Is the Fuzion system still around?  Is there anything out there using it today?

 

 

 

 

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On January 23, 2019 at 2:30 AM, DreadDomain said:

Oh, I know why it's based on 3E. I still don't see how it makes good business sense. 

 

On February 4, 2019 at 4:14 PM, rjcurrie said:

 to be cynical, make some money off the Hero Games property without having to put in any time or effort.

 

Right.

 

Because the money that I am willing to pay for something new for 3e and the money that you (or someone else, if not you) is willing to pay for something new of 6e are both green.

 

Let's not look at the current state of HERO games and issues like being stuck with tons of copies of MHI, after paying for licensing of the property, etc, because of misguided political activism, the drop in interest overall in the brand, etc---

 

Let's look at the business sense aspect:

 

There's just no understanding it.  Sure, there are schools and programs and degrees built around the unspoken agreement that we will all pretend it's possible to predict every time how to market, but it isn't.  So lots of things get tried.

 

How does it make good business sense for Coca-Cola -- who sell products that I watch people pay two bucks a bottle for-- to then show up at our local barbecue festival and spend two days giving them away to a couple thousand people?  People who have proven they will pay two bucks a pop for them?

 

There's a lot that we can condemn, and ten times as much we can scratch our heads over, but at the end of the day: what will bring some cash?

 

Honestly, I would _love_ to think that more "4 and before" adventures and characters and such would appear.  I'd likely buy them.  But I won't count on it, because, as you say, 6e is the thing to push.  But right now there's an old-school revival going on all through the hobby.  Letting someone dust off and reinvent 3e has a decent cash-- at least while the revival wave is going-- of bringing in some needed cash.

 

 

I never got an answer to my "how much to actually _be_ a unique villain" question, or I'd have kicked in more than I have. :lol:

 

 

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On 2/9/2019 at 8:40 PM, Duke Bushido said:

Is the Fuzion system still around?  Is there anything out there using it today?

 

There was a free PDF of the basic Fuzion rules that was put out yeeeears ago that actually seemed pretty solid. Not sure if exists as any kind of retail product, though. I found this version of the rules for sale for four bucks:

 

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/2367/Fuzion-Core-Rules

 

And here's the freebie version I found way back in '98 (opens PDF):

 

https://rtalsoriangames.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/fuzion1.pdf

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1 hour ago, Chris Goodwin said:

I myself favor the Action! System over Fuzion, for a variety of reasons, but mainly because it's freely available under the Open Game License.

 

I've been partial to OpenD6 for the same reasons... easy to learn and Open Gaming License :)

 

I've always thought it a shame that the system has become so obscure.

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Is there an estimated publication date for Champions Now? I contacted Ron Edwards who was spearheading the project and he informed me that his portion of the project (e.g. game design, mechanics, and play-testing) was complete.

 

Am really hoping that the final print-on-demand product will be something first-rate like Mighty Protectors or Prowlers & Paragons; I will definitely save up and spend the extra $$$ for a hardcover edition. 😀

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The following is not official, but is based on official statements.

From the Kickstarter page:
Original estimated date Jun 2019.
The manuscript was submitted by May 1st.

That leaves editing, layout and "stuff".

 

So, reasonably close to the estimated deadline. Add a bit for unavoidable delays.

I'll start being concerned if I don't see it by August.

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