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Trying to build a healer...


Sorloc

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Basically what Ninja-Bear said.

However if you can build your own spells, I suggest instead building just one "Transfer Health" spell as a Jointly Linked Ranged Killing Attack (w/Only Versus Living Beings) Plus Ranged Healing BODY.

That way you aren't paying more to be limited to only transfering health to and from youraelf. Instead you can skip being the middleman and transfer health directly from your enemies to your allies. Assuming there are any enemies to be had... otherwise that RKA has to be used on somebody (either yourself... or somebody that trusts you enough to endure excruciating pain).

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Just a warning that Combat Healing is usually excessively expensive, and Healing generally seems to be intended to be used outside of combat. "Drain-Tanking" simply isn't a cost effective strategy in HERO compared to taking less damage (via defense powers) or doing more damage (via attack powers).

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As Cantriped noted, this is a really expensive ability, esp. in a fantasy setting where you don't have a lot of points to spend and aren't likely to be using something like a Multipower framework to lower over power costs.  One work-around would be to use the Delay or Trigger advantages to let you set up the spell ahead of time and then put a lengthy casting time on it to bring down the Real Cost.  You will have to work out with your GM how many of these spells you can have stored (typically something like INT/5 or based on your spell skill or the total Active Points in stored spells can't exceed your total Character Points, etc.) but would allow you to have this spell without being a one-trick pony because you sank such a huge chunk of your points on a single ability.

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4 minutes ago, Ockham's Spoon said:

As Cantriped noted, this is a really expensive ability, esp. in a fantasy setting where you don't have a lot of points to spend and aren't likely to be using something like a Multipower framework to lower over power costs.  One work-around would be to use the Delay or Trigger advantages to let you set up the spell ahead of time and then put a lengthy casting time on it to bring down the Real Cost.  You will have to work out with your GM how many of these spells you can have stored (typically something like INT/5 or based on your spell skill or the total Active Points in stored spells can't exceed your total Character Points, etc.) but would allow you to have this spell without being a one-trick pony because you sank such a huge chunk of your points on a single ability.


I've honestly found healing to be a bit overpowered for the price.

 

2d6 is sufficient to bring most folks to full BODY assuming typical 10-15 BODY score.

 

1 BODY per Turn Regen is only like 4 Active Points.

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2d6 Healing can only heal a maximum of 6 BODY, since Adjustment powers only have half effect on 'defensive powers' like BODY, STUN, CON, PD, ED, etc (see 6e Vol 1 pg141).  And it can only heal 6 BODY if you roll 12 on the dice which isn't likely in the middle of combat, although out of combat you can keep trying until you get it.  While 2d6 Healing would probably work for this concept, you still have to link it to a Killing attack of similar or higher active cost, so we are looking at a 50+ Active Point spell.  Since combat spells can't usually take a lot of limitations without making them useless in combat, this ability gets pretty expensive in terms of Real Points.

 

Regeneration at 4 points only gets you 1 BODY/day.  If you want 1 BODY/turn, that is 16 points, which is a lot for a fantasy level character.  Also, you can't use Regeneration on others.

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3 hours ago, Ockham's Spoon said:

2d6 Healing can only heal a maximum of 6 BODY, since Adjustment powers only have half effect on 'defensive powers' like BODY, STUN, CON, PD, ED, etc (see 6e Vol 1 pg141).

I hold an unpopular opinion on this subject, and say this at the risk of starting another long and fruitless debate... but: 

That only applies to Adjustment Powers that increase or decrease one of those elements (Aid/Boost, Absorption, and Drain/Suppress). Healing does neither; it very explicitly only restores lost points of an affected game element. In other words, it doesn't give you more BODY or STUN, it just restores points of them you've lost; as such it isn't included in the rule you quote... CC/FHC are far clearer on this point (although neither edition is as explicit as I'd like).

Unfortunately (for the credibility of my position), the 6e v1&2 rules for Healing have been muddied by Steve Long's official intrepretation of how Healing works, which contradicts the rules he actually wrote. In addition, once you include his most recent errata for those volumes (which he released suspiciously soon after a very long debate on the subject came up) the examples now support his position; but still contradict the relevent rules sections in every version of 6th edition. Using his official intrepretation, Healing is even worse than it's overpriced die and arbitrary per day maximums already made it appear. I would even go so far as to say his version of Healing is an unsalvagably inefficient point-trap on purpose. Which is an odd design conceit considering that the role of Healer is so unpopular that most systems have to bribe their players into playing one.

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On 6/2/2018 at 11:25 AM, Sorloc said:

Trying to build a healer in fantasy hero 5th... 

I'm looking for a way to do vampiric style healing; when I heal you, I take damage, but I can damage others and heal myself...

 

Since you are using 5th, have you looked at Transfer (STUN into STUN) with Delayed Return/Fade and Only To Starting Values?

It won't kill your enemies, but it will let you play a kind of Drain-Tanker, in that your attack will simultaneously bring them closer to being knocked out and you further away. Once they are unconsious, just finish them off with a knife or something. The Transfered STUN will fade eventually, but you'll still be Recovering any lost STUN while it does, so with any luck by the time it fades you'll be be fully recovered anyway.

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5 hours ago, Cantriped said:

Since you are using 5th, have you looked at Transfer (STUN into STUN) with Delayed Return/Fade and Only To Starting Values?

It won't kill your enemies, but it will let you play a kind of Drain-Tanker, in that your attack will simultaneously bring them closer to being knocked out and you further away. Once they are unconsious, just finish them off with a knife or something. The Transfered STUN will fade eventually, but you'll still be Recovering any lost STUN while it does, so with any luck by the time it fades you'll be be fully recovered anyway.

 

Do aids / transfers that "only restore to starting value" even fade?  I've never had them do so, if only to reduce bookkeeping :D

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Well I missed the fact that Healing is exempted from the doubling rule that applies to other Adjustment powers for defense powers, thanks for pointing that out.  Personally I don't like the doubling rule at all; it seems lopsided, adds complication, and makes some power concepts clunky to implement, all with the goal of addressing a balance issue that was never a problem in games I have played.

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2 minutes ago, Ockham's Spoon said:

Well I missed the fact that Healing is exempted from the doubling rule that applies to other Adjustment powers for defense powers, thanks for pointing that out.  Personally I don't like the doubling rule at all; it seems lopsided, adds complication, and makes some power concepts clunky to implement, all with the goal of addressing a balance issue that was never a problem in games I have played.

 

Agreed.  I think just a note to the GM to perhaps limit the amount of Aid that can be applied to "defensive" powers rather than doubling the "cost" after rolling the dice.

 

That said, I do still use said rule for Aids other than those which "only restore to starting value."

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4 hours ago, Funk Thompson said:

That said, I do still use said rule for Aids other than those which "only restore to starting value."

Oh yeah, it definately applies to Aid/Boost, Absorption, and Drain/Suppress... because otherwise the low cost of certain elements per point make Increasing them by their point cost on a die roll is too effective.

 

For example... lots of characters have a 12d6 Blast (and two to four of its closest friends in a multipower), but how many have 30 BODY? Even after halving, a power sufficient to Drain a 12d6 Blast is also enough to Drain a person with 15 BODY to death outright, and has a fair chance of killing anybody with less than 30 BODY.

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True, but you don't typically have to reduce a 12d6 Blast to zero to render it ineffectual.  If 12d6 is an average or even somewhat above average attack, you only need to drop it by half or so to make it almost worthless against the average defense of the campaign. 

 

That said, your point is still valid; if 12d6 is an average attack, that is equivalent to a 6d6 Drain, and that could easily kill someone in a single shot if you don't halve the power.  Back in 5e, Drain didn't have range which kept it a little more balanced; the addition of range in 6e effectively made it cheaper relative to a regular Blast or RKA, and the decrease in characteristic costs for BODY, CON, and END exacerbated the problem.  I like the more streamlined characteristic costs by and large, but I don't  think Drain needed any help.  (And on a related note why does Drain have range but Healing doesn't?).  Sorry, I don't mean to whine, just my personal take on some of the cost structure.

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I'm also against the different rules for draining different types of stats. Keep It Simple Stupid, I like to tell myself.

 

I'll go so far as to say I like the idea that drains et.al. ARE especially dangerous types of attack that bypass normal defenses. This allows my fantasy settings to have truly scary necromancers with horrible "death touch" spells and what have you. It keeps the uber muscled barbarians on their toes, which seems genre appropriate.

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The doubling rule is kind of a kludge that with the new characteristics costs, is kind of necessary.  At 5 END per 1 point, even a single die of heal END is enough to top off just about anyone.  Even a bad roll gives you enough for a few phases.  And 2 points of stun per 1 point of effect is a super efficient way to keep people standing. Roll 4d6 (60 active cost at range) and you have an average of over 20 Stun with a max of 48 healed.  That's pretty close to a "complete heal" every time you cast the spell, and while you cannot heal more than your max possible roll per x time period, you can keep rolling and adding stun up to that max.

 

With Aid it gets even worse.  Eliminate the range and you can give everyone in the party +72 Stun for 60 active points.  Feeling vulnerable?  That's okay, you can have 36 PD. 

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Right, and again while I follow the doubling cost rule (for all but "only restores to starting value"), I also won't allow high amounts of aid.  You can't break campaign CV or DEF limits with it, and I think I limited healing to the regeneration option at 1 BODY per day, tops - I like to limit healing in my game to avoid the "I've got a lot of hit points, and the cleric will heal me.  Damn the torpedoes!" gameplay of most RPG's.

 

Most of the buff spells were more +1 OCV AOE, +2 PD/ED AOE, etc - characterisitcs or powers usable by others as opposed to aids.

 

I....  also don't like dealing with fade rates, at all.  So I usually stuck on a reduced fade rate or whatever, 5 points per minute or per 5 minutes, to avoid constant bookkeeping during the combat.  And that makes drains ever more nasty, so those were usually pretty small as well.

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10 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

The doubling rule is kind of a kludge that with the new characteristics costs, is kind of necessary.  At 5 END per 1 point, even a single die of heal END is enough to top off just about anyone.

Yeah... but only once. The Per Day Limit is the real balancing factor controlling the viability of repeatedly Healing of consumable elements. The fastest you can legally reapply Healing END is twice per phase (using a Cumulative Standard Effect Healing Power with Decreased Re-Use (1 Turn)... Such a power costs at least 30 points per die of Healing, and can restore up to... 30 END or 12 STUN per Turn. 

Making it more cost effective to Adjust their REC than heal their STUN and/or END

 

You can often use a Delayed Fade Aid to achieve more reliable results (at least for "Restoring" STUN and END). An Aid automatocally increases both your current and maximum STUN/END (unless otherwise limited), and lost points come out of the temporary points first. Plus the Aid can automatically be re-used as soon as the benefits of the last one have faded, Healing on the other-hand doesn't give a shit if the points it healed an hour ago have already been lost again.

 

For my next campaign, I am breaking the standard mold by allowing Healing Powers to be reusable in however long they take to activate; up to a maximum of Reusable At Once (+2). But generally speaking Healing powers that restore BODY are going to be slow (upwards of 20 minutes per die) and will cost Long-Term END as a method of discouraging their over-use.

Here are a few examples:

 

Elixir of Healing: Simplified Healing 3d6 (Generalized), Reusable At Once (+2) (90 APs); 1 Charge Which Is Difficult To Recover (see text; -2 1/4), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4), Generalized (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4), OAF Fragile Expendable (Difficult To Obtain; -1 1/2). Cost: 16 points. [1 CH]

 

Rehabilitation: Healing BODY 1d6, Reusable In 20 Minutes (+1/2) (15 APs); Concentration (0 DCV, Throughout; -1), Costs Long-Term END (-1/2), Extra Time (20 Minutes; -2 1/2), Gestures (Both Hands, Throughout; -1), Incantations (Throughout; -1/2). Cost: 2 points. [1 LTE]
-> Regeneration: Can Heal Limbs for Rehabilitation (7 APs). Cost: 1 point. [1 LTE]
-> Resurrection: Resurrection for Rehabilitation (30 APs); Increased END Cost (x2; -1/2). Cost: 4 points. [3 LTE]
Note: Resurrection is impossible if the target's soul is unwilling or unable to return, and can also be prevented by completely destroying either the body or soul. The secrets of resurrection are generally only known to the highest ranking priests.

 

Rejuvenation: Healing STUN & END 1d6, Constant (+1/2), Expanded Effect (+1/2), Reusable At Once (+2) (40 APs); Concentration (0 DCV, Throughout; -1), Extra Time (Full-Phase; -1/2), Gestures (Both Hands, Throughout; -1), Incantations (Throughout; -1/2). Cost: 10 points. [4 END]

 

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Note that the Elixir is considered Equipment... so the ability to brew Elixirs will likely be tied straight into an Alchemy Power Skill (at horrendeous penalties), or else bought as "formulae" using Fantasy HERO's Alternate Magic Item Creation System. Which depends largely on how much granularity I need Alchemists to have compared to Sorcerers.

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I agree, the balancing factor for healing is the limited uses.  Which works but to me feels more like a campaign limit than what truly belongs in a meta base rule set.  In other words: its probably a good idea, but shouldn't be hardwired into the power by default.  It ought to be suggested (or doubling, or some other limit) rather than required.  For some campaigns, it makes sense to have open unlimited healing, in others it does not.  A truly generic game set ought not force one campaign concept on all campaigns.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Healing is one of those self-inflicted problems that Fantasy Hero has always had.  First of all, it matters whether you're playing with hit locations and bleeding or not, and whether your healing spell is per-injury or not.  Then somewhere along the line it was decided to roll Healing into Aid, causing it to get caught up in all the efforts to fix Aid (which was admittedly broken).  At this point if it's 1st ed FH, I might know how Healing works, and if it's any other version, I definitely do not know how Healing works.

 

 

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