Rethinking Growth

[Christopher R Taylor]

I'm not very happy with how growth is built right now in 6th edition.  I understand that this was to please the many people who wanted free stats to go with their growth but to me that seems like a step back if you're going to argue that figured characteristics don't make sense and reduce flexibility in a game.

 

At present it is built in irregular jumps of cost, representing the various points in stats you get along with some abstractions such as weight and so on.  But the power is blocky and feels less useful than the very old 5 points per level, 3 levels = double height that was more granular and easier to remember and buy.

 

In my opinion, Growth should not give strength etc.  It should only confer things directly and obviously associated with growth: size, reach, ease of being seen.  Even such stats as weight and knockback resistance aren't necessarily appropriate for growth as a base power (what if you just inflate, the same weight but bigger?  What if you're an exoskeleton, not a solid body?).  If you want to build a very basic, stock, ground level power to build from, it shouldn't carry anything except the most necessary and obvious characteristics.  To add strength and such generally makes sense, but isn't necessarily a requirement and adding that in makes it more complicated and difficult to build a variant lacking those stats.  Should you run faster if you are bigger?  Maybe, but again, not automatically.  Being bigger might make you slower because you've become more ponderous or unsteady.

 

Any player can build in stats with linked to growth or a multiform if they desire, probably even saving a few points in the process.  This makes growth significantly cheaper because it then loses most of the really spendy bits that were built into it.

 

So stripping away all that, you end up with a chart which looks like this:

 

PTS  SIZE               HEIGHT     WIDTH       WEIGHT               REACH

25     Large             Up to 4m    Up to 2m   101-800                +1m 
50     Enormous     5-8m           3-4m          801-6,400             +3m 
90     Huge*            9-16m         5-8m          6,401-50,000        +7m
120   Gigantic        17-32m       9-16m        50,001-400,000   +15m 
150   Gargantuan  33-64m       17-32m      400,001-3.2 mil  +31m 
215   Colossal       65-125m      33-64m     3.3-25.6 mil         +63m 

 

Obviously the cost is too high so that has to change.  But should the levels be absolute doubling or some steps in between?  In other words it could look like this:
 

PTS  SIZE              HEIGHT     WIDTH       WEIGHT               REACH   PER MOD

??     Large             Up to 3m   1½m         100-400                +1m         +0

??     Large             4m              2m            400-800                +2m         +1
??     Enormous     5m              2m            800-1600             +2m         +2

??     Enormous     6-7m          3m            1600-3200            +3m         +3

??     Enormous     8m             4m             3200-6400           +4m         +4
??     Huge*            9-11m       5m              6,401-12,500       +5m         +4

??     Huge*            12-14m     6-7m          12,500-25,000     +6m         +5

??     Huge*            15-16m      9m             25,000-50,000     +7m         +6

 

etc.  I added in the Perception Modifier to be spotted because that's basic Hero rules: double the size, +2 PER to be spotted.  Why that was removed I'm not sure.

 

The cost would be pretty small.  Its worth a few points to be big, with the drawback built into the physical complication.  Reach is 1 point per m of reach, but its a small penalty to be perceived more easily at some levels, perhaps -1 per PER modifier.  That in general will negate the reach -- not exactly, but close enough for our purposes (and to keep things a regular cost), so its a push.  Is being big worth much?  I mean, only being big?  Any presence attack modifiers the GM can assign based on relative size and circumstances.  The Sta-Puft Marshmallow man was dozens of feet tall but until he attacked he wasn't really all that intimidating.

 

Deconstructing the first level of growth on the chart, there's 25 points of stats (44 total points, with a -¼ linked, a -¼ perceivable and -¼ unified power limitation, I'm assuming) and it costs 25 points to be that big.  So the mere ability to be another size costs nothing, I'm guessing, in this calculus.  But its worth something, I mean you can reach things that are higher up just by being taller, and that doesn't include the "reach" ability to grab things further away.

 

So maybe 2 points a level, just to grow?  It doesn't seem worth much more than that.  And with that as a base you can then buy the other stats attached to it, making the character the way you think they ought to be.  I dunno, just thinking with a calculator.

[Amorkca]

Wasn't the original idea behind Growth to enable you to build Colossal Boy from the Legion?

 

The bigger you get, the stronger you are, more durable, move farther, etc...

 

I too would like to see a return of the old growth chart, but I wonder about disconnecting everything from it.  To me, Champions I-IV was built with a normal human as the template or base, then if you were bigger it meant something or smaller it meant something different.  They've gone away from those "absolutes" and I struggle with that fact...

[dmjalund]

how about the ability to buy growth for part your body? - e.g make stretch more compatible with growth

[Funk Thompson]

9 hours ago, dmjalund said:

how about the ability to buy growth for part your body? - e.g make stretch more compatible with growth

 

Eh, this is already somewhat baked-in.  

 

Growth makes your "reach" increase, essentially giving you free stretching for all limbs.

 

Personally, I liked the 5E growth since it was more granular, and in 6E I am usually building it out as a custom power rather than using the default growth power, unless I'm just making a quick NPC or something.

[Amorkca]

Can you define your custom power?

[Funk Thompson]

2 hours ago, Amorkca said:

Can you define your custom power?

 

I can dig up a build, but basically +STR, +CON,+PD/ED, +BODY; with appropriate modifiers depending on build (ie. "costs END" for a guy that grows, nothing if it is just a big critter but I want it noted that the characteristics are due to size) and then stretching and KB resist if applicable / big enough.  Then a side effect for the increased mass, size, DCV penalty, etc.

 

Part of this is just due to Growth (using HERO Designer) not really listing all of that very well on the character sheet compared to a list or custom power (custom power is somewhat hard to read, but at least lists everything out.)

[dsatow]

I've two things I dislike about growth in 6th ed.  

1) The disadvantage for height penalties and the weight penalties are disproportionate to the power.  Say you are playing Gi-Ant Man from Captain America: Civil War.  Using the growth power you are effectively huge or larger, so your effective DCV drops by 6 or more and all you get for compensation is 9 non-resistant PD and ED?

2) The cost jump.  If you are playing a 6DC to about 10DC game, growth sort of works out.  But at a higher level, there is a huge jump in cost.

 

I've basically found, you do a lot better using multiform for size changing.  For 90 points, you could pay for a 400 point character with 4 different sizes and not pay end for the power. 

[Grailknight]

Here's my post from the other thread.

 

That's part of my modifiers but its still a work in progress.

 

Here's a rough draft. Take note that all these powers are being valued with 2x /Costs End because you pay End for Growth and then in some cases for the added power.

 

Growth: Each level costs 15 points and gains the character the following

 

+10 Str

+1 OCV (HTH only)

+1 PD and +1 ED Damage Negation

+1" Knockback Resistance

+1" Stretching

+2 Meters Running (not sure here)

+3 Pre ( also open to debate)

 

-2 DCV

2x Size

8x Mass

-2 Stealth 

 

Feedback is welcomed.

[dmjalund]

I would define ias +2 to attackers OCV - so it doesn’t disappear when you are (for some reason) at 0DCV

[Grailknight]

That does solve the problem of having a lower DCV than a wall but now it's not as easy to render on the character sheet. Still a net plus. Ill edit when more ideas come in.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

I would define as +2 to attackers OCV - so it doesn’t disappear when you are (for some reason) at 0DCV

 

I like that approach better than actually modifying DCV because someone big can be just as agile and swift as they ever were, just a large area to hit.  Same with shrinking

 

Oh, and I think the DCV mods are too big with both shrinking and growth myself.  Being 3 feet tall shouldn't nearly double a normal person's DCV.

[ghost-angel]

it IS a +2 to the Attackers OCV in 6E.

 

What you could do is use the Difference between two Targets Sizes on the Attack Modifiers Table, though that gets weird when Shrinker attacks Giant Man and gets an enormous bonus to hit, but then Shrinker it literally trying to hit a building so...

[mallet]

Another disadvantage to consider (if you are rebuilding growth, heck even if you aren’t) is that a giant characters PER should start getting negative modifiers the bigger they get. 

 

If you are 60’ tall you aren’t going to be able to notice the same details of events happening at ground level as a 6’ tall character. You aren’t going to be able to read newspapers or iPad displays, or make out slight motions. You probably won’t hear normal sounds as well, not just from distance, but from scale. 

 

The easiest way way to represent this might just be using the range modifiers for Perception checks, with the range being how far away the ground is from the giant characters eyes/ears. 

 

So a 60’ character is at minimum “60’ away” (19m)  for all perception checks they need to make. So they would be at -4. 

 

Should be worth at least a few extra disadvantage points or complications. 

[mallet]

Now that I’m thinking on it. Other disadvantages (at least from comics & movies) seems to be the bigger you get, the slower you get. 

 

So maybe at a certain point you start getting your Speed reduced? 

 

Maybe some version of the Encumberance Rules could be used/modified to represent this?

 

Maybe this should be a limitation (-1/2?) that a character could take on the Growth power? 

[ghost-angel]

There becomes a point where in attempting to simulate certain things you create unplayability, or at least reduce the Heroic Fun. Besides, let's not get too realistic, Growth is designed to change your size - so we're already at the implausible right there.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Actually one of the most overused lines in comic books is "how can something so big move so fast??" so the big=slow thing isn't necessarily a valid concept.  Plus, most of the big = slow thing came from movies using slow movements to emphasize their vast size, plus animation issues.  Elephants aren't any slower than weasels.

[Cantriped]

On 6/5/2018 at 7:22 AM, Funk Thompson said:

Personally, I liked the 5E growth since it was more granular, and in 6E I am usually building it out as a custom power rather than using the default growth power, unless I'm just making a quick NPC or something.

This is more or less how I use Growth... not as the power suite itself, although for fantasy potions that works fine... but rather for the set of guidelines it includes for writing similar power suites myself (usually for Body Affecting powers less drastic than Multiform implies).

 

In that regard Growth/Shrinking are even more granular (just less obviously so) because they are not merely an example of how to abstractly purchase temporary size changes... rather they are an example of how to convert nearly any template into a Constant Special Power.

 

In that regard I would be much more supportive of developing more variations using the existing mechanics than I would in trying to reinvent a very nice wheel (one too nice for the cart they stuck it to perhaps).

 

For example, it should be fairly easy to convert Mass templates into a new Density Decrease power (increase already being covered, and the APG version being based on Desolidification). Likewise it shouldn't be too hard to create Inflation/Deflation Templates to convert into powers for all those Stretchy and Pufferfish like growers whose mass doesn't change.

[Cantriped]

16 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Actually one of the most overused lines in comic books is "how can something so big move so fast??"

Except big things really do tend to accellerate slower, ergo the surprise when a big monster bucks the trend and whips its tail around at lightning speed... which is not to say they actually move slower, limb length/engine power can still result in exceptional velocities.

 

That line certainly is overused though... it is a gimmick used to save production budget (in animation) or compensate for deficiencies in the the media (in narrative illustrations). 

 

Regardless, the "Big Slow" and "Big Fast" monsters both have very different uses in a narrative environment. The former is more commonly used against large weak groups (like modern soldiers in a military campaign fighting giant robots). Meanwhile the latter is typically used to challange small powerful groups like the classic party of adventurers versus the Kraken.

 

Heroes with Growth in cinima tend to fall into the former category. As they are effectively the big robot meant to occupy all of the mooks' attention (they typicaly don't need to take very many actions to fill that role). Elsewise they typically need the extra strength and durability that comes from increased mass to catch heavy objects (like buildings) and resist being knocked around by similarly large enemies.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I like the mass changing power in the Advanced Player Guide a lot more than Density Increase as a solo power.  A range of varying densities which makes building someone like the Vision a lot easier rather than "get more dense or be totally desolidified."

[Cantriped]

On 6/4/2018 at 8:36 PM, Christopher R Taylor said:

Deconstructing the first level of growth on the chart, there's 25 points of stats (44 total points, with a -¼ linked, a -¼ perceivable and -¼ unified power limitation, I'm assuming) and it costs 25 points to be that big. 

 

Actually, all of the Growth levels should be priced by starting with "the appropriate Size Template, and applying Costs Endurance (-½), Unified Power (-¼), and Side Effects (-½) to" the elements it contains (CC 69 and elsewhere), ignoring Complications (which are imposed by the side effect).

In other words, if you divide the total costs of the various size templates by 2.25 (and round) you get their Active Point cost as a Growth level... loosely speaking... this doesn't have to be a size template per say. You could use the principle to create all sorts of fairly priced custom Body-Affecting powers.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Perhaps Growth is better off built as a meta-power like a talent: bundle the things together (with the appropriate complications) as a package for people to use who are a different size

[Zephrosyne]

If you have the Advanced Player's Guide, there is a bit more granularity as there are intermediate (semi) levels in between Growth categories: for example Semi-Large, Large, Semi-Enormous, Enormous, etc.  This doesn't help if you take issue with the overall cost of Growth or the benefits/penalties of Growth, but for those who just want more granularity, I think it helps a lot.

[MrAgdesh]

On ‎6‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 1:06 AM, Christopher R Taylor said:

Actually one of the most overused lines in comic books is "how can something so big move so fast??" so the big=slow thing isn't necessarily a valid concept.  Plus, most of the big = slow thing came from movies using slow movements to emphasize their vast size, plus animation issues.  Elephants aren't any slower than weasels.

 

Yep. Hulk moves pretty darn fast in the Avengers. Chasing Black Widow through the Helicarrier he's keeping pace.

 

Comic Book Physics...

[Ninja-Bear]

53 minutes ago, MrAgdesh said:

 

Yep. Hulk moves pretty darn fast in the Avengers. Chasing Black Widow through the Helicarrier he's keeping pace.

 

Comic Book Physics...

How’s that comic book physics? Bulls can out run you. Bison can out run you and turn on a dime. Bears can out run you -unless it’s down hill iirc. 

[whitekeys]

On 6/12/2018 at 1:21 PM, Christopher R Taylor said:

Perhaps Growth is better off built as a meta-power like a talent: bundle the things together (with the appropriate complications) as a package for people to use who are a different size

 

I'd go one further and get rid of Growth altogether. Buy the other powers that being large typically gets you, reach, KB resistance, etc., and consider your actual size to be a special effect.