Transform vs Shape Shift: How to Change Oneself

[Sveta]

I've been working on a Shape Shifter / Flesh Warper style character for a bit, and came across this peculiar conundrum. I am attempting to have a method that alter's the hero on a genetic scale, refitting their "Natural State" into the new form. Three options immediately came to mind: Multiform, Shape Shift, and Transform. Multiform has henceforth been discarded, as it is concerned more with changing the function of a character, rather than their appearance. Thus, the below comparisons and examples were put forth between Shape Shift and Transform. The only less that entirely certain area in this is the non-verified ability to use Transform on oneself. However, as the listed Target is Any, the rest of the pose will presume that one can use it on oneself, and will impose the limitation Self Only (-1/2) on any Transforms using such.

 

Examples: Shifter-Man wants to change to appear as-

An Eighty year old woman to lay low for a week or two.

Gang Member #8 he had to punch out to get in the building.

Himself, but with blue hair for the ball, as hair dye is expensive.

 

Before advancing further, it became clear as I was musing that these three seem to be the most common archtypes of Self-Shape-Shifting done. Long Term Disguise, Temporary Disguise, and Minor Alterations. From beyond, the examples will be referred to as Such.

 

Long Term Disguise: Shape Shift

For a sustained alteration of this sort, a few options would sort of be required. Sight Group (8), Hearing Group (5), Probably Touch and Mental group (5 and 2), Limited Group for Humanoids (5), Makeover (5), Cellular most likely (10). For it to be a good sustained Disguise, you're looking at Reduced Endurance (0 END, +1/2). So out of the Gate, there's a 60 Active Point power. 

Advantages: Can be done in a Half Phase Action. Mental Obfuscation.

Disadvantages: Pricey.

 

Long Term Disguise: Transform

Same idea going on here. 4d6 Cosmetic (12), Humanoid Result (+1/2), Self Only (-1/2). End Result is a 18 Active Point power, and 12 Real Point Power. Even presuming it was pushed for a Minor Transformation instead, that bumps it up to 30 Active Points and 20 Real Points.

Advantages: Cheap. Lasts when Knocked out.

Disadvantages: Costs END to "Activate," Likely takes around a Turn.

 

Temporary Disguise: Shape Shift

This is really where Shape Shift seems to shine. Sight Group (8), Hearing Group (5), Touch Group (5 ), Limited Group for Humanoids (5),  Imitation (10). Instant Change, just in case (5). This brings it in at 38 Active Points.

Advantages: Near Perfect Mimicry of Form. All but Instant.

Cons: Costs END each turn.

 

Temporary Disguise: Transform

This exists all but exactly as the above Transformation Power. However, mimicry isn't specifically covered, so at best I would imagine something of a Mimicry or Transformation roll would be needed to see how accurate, if the GM allowed such a use at all.

Advantages: Cheap. Lasts When Knocked Out.

Disadvantages: Requires Severe GM Consideration and not likely in the end, Likely takes around a Turn

 

Minor Alteration: Shape Shift

This one could be run on a more minimal approach, taking Sight and Touch Group, with Makeover alone for just 18 Active points. However, you're using energy to keep your makeup on then. So, Sight Group (8), Touch Group, (5), Makeover (5), Limited Group for Humanoid (5), Reduced END (0 END +1/2). Active Points 34.

Advantages: Takes a Half Phase to apply. 

Disadvantages: Pricey for it's effect.

 

Minor Alteration: Transform

Once more, this can be duplicated with the above Transformation Power. This one, however, is covered all but explicitly in the Cosmetic Transformation group. 

Advantages: Cheap. Lasts when Knocked out.

Disadvantages: Costs END to "Activate," Likely takes around a Turn.

 

Net:

Shape Change: Sight Group (8), Hearing Group (5),  Touch Group (5), Mental group (2), Limited Group for Humanoids (5), Makeover (5), Cellular (10), Imitation (10). Instant Change (5), Reduced Endurance (0 END, +1/2): Active 82

Transform: 4d6 Minor (12), Humanoid Result (+1/2), Self Only (-1/2) Active 30. Real 20

 

Results: 

This bothers me. This bothers me severely. Transform is hands and away the more viable option here, with the downside that you likely won't be mimicking anyone, unless actual Skill rolls are involved. Granted, if you bumped Shape Change up to Any Object for a comparatively small increase, for Transform to compete it would have to triple in price. However, as it is, Shape Change, for human transformations, seems to be much more in the avenue of Transform, rather than the presumed Shape Change.

 

Looking back over it, it would seem that I am trying to find a way to cause a substantial physical alteration in the form of the user, rather than mimicking a disguise of some sort, and thus Transform would make more sense. Still, the question is thus. Am I missing anything? Would you do something different in this sort of situation? Questions and concerns are more than appreciated. 

[Funk Thompson]

Problem:   Transform is an attack.  You generally do not want to build a power that affects the user using transform.

 

It may be "more efficient" or whatever, but you generally cannot or do not want to allow attack powers that target the user with beneficial effects.

 

Your shapeshift is ridiculously expensive due to it being vs. so many senses and having so many adders, and having the 0 END Cost.  Apply those same things to the transform and the cost goes up accordingly (but would still ultimately be cheaper; probably 60 AP vs. the 80 or so.)

 

That said, yes, shapeshift is a very wonky power to use and I usually just do multiform with a custom "variable form" +1 advantage.  

[Funk Thompson]

Quote

Multiform (250 Character Points in the most expensive form), Variable Form(s) (+1) (100 Active Points); Costs Endurance (Only To Change; -1/2), Extra Time (Delayed Phase, Only to Activate, -1/4)

 

Quick and dirty, 57 points for a 250 point character.  

 

Problem with this route is having to build the forms as they use them, for which I would require they had already built said form before attempting to use in play.

[steriaca]

You can't Transform yourself. So that leaves three other ways.

 

1) Shapeshift

 

2) Multiforn

 

3) Just a special effect for power x (shape your arm into a giant mallet, for example).

 

I suggest #3 for most powers based on attack and defense, #1 for changing into random stuff, and #2 if your character actually has other deep identities which are separate physically and mentally from the based form.

[Sveta]

 

3 minutes ago, Funk Thompson said:

 

Quick and dirty, 57 points for a 250 point character.  

 

Problem with this route is having to build the forms as they use them, for which I would require they had already built said form before attempting to use in play.

 

As was mentioned at the start of the pose, the consideration for Multiform was already put forth. While it allows for what is being attempted, it is something akin to solving a problem that can be handled with an ax, by using a fire bomb. Specifically in regards to the fact that most all of what is attempting to be done above is Minor or Cosmetic changes onto the character. Multiform would allow that minor changes, absolutely, but it's primary purpose seems to be to have Multiple Forms. Entire different characters, so to speak, ready on the fly. Heck, it even calls out this difference in the book. (6e1 279)

 

2 minutes ago, steriaca said:

You can't Transform yourself. So that leaves three other ways.

 

1) Shapeshift

 

2) Multiforn

 

3) Just a special effect for power x (shape your arm into a giant mallet, for example).

 

I suggest #3 for most powers based on attack and defense, #1 for changing into random stuff, and #2 if your character actually has other deep identities which are separate physically and mentally from the based form.

 

All considering, considering the scale of the things I'm trying to deal with in this sort of scenario, your Option #3 seems to be the best bet. Thank you kindly.

[BoloOfEarth]

1 hour ago, Sveta said:

Long Term Disguise: Shape Shift

For a sustained alteration of this sort, a few options would sort of be required. Sight Group (8), Hearing Group (5), Probably Touch and Mental group (5 and 2), Limited Group for Humanoids (5), Makeover (5), Cellular most likely (10). For it to be a good sustained Disguise, you're looking at Reduced Endurance (0 END, +1/2). So out of the Gate, there's a 60 Active Point power. 

Advantages: Can be done in a Half Phase Action. Mental Obfuscation.

Disadvantages: Pricey.

 

You'll definitely want Touch on there; Mental is a nice bonus.

 

Unless you were going to add in Persistent, I'd suggest replacing 0 END (+1/2) with Costs END Only to Activate (+1/4).  That brings the AP cost down to 50 points.  I'd also consider Extra Time for the Long Term Disguise (but not have that on the Temporary or Minor Alteration ones).  Full Phase is (-1/4), while I believe 1 Turn would be (-3/4).  Maybe also Concentration (0 DCV during activation; -1/2). 

 

Personally, I'd go with a 0 END, Persistent Long Term Disguise version with Concentration (0 DCV during activation) and Extra Time (1 Turn).  70 Active Points, 31 Real Points. 

[Ninja-Bear]

4 hours ago, steriaca said:

You can't Transform yourself. So that leaves three other ways.

 

1) Shapeshift

 

2) Multiforn

 

3) Just a special effect for power x (shape your arm into a giant mallet, for example).

 

I suggest #3 for most powers based on attack and defense, #1 for changing into random stuff, and #2 if your character actually has other deep identities which are separate physically and mentally from the based form.

Umm Instant Change was changed in 5th to Cosmetic Transformation so not seeing how you can’t use an attack power on yourself.

[steriaca]

 

Umm Instant Change was changed in 5th to Cosmetic Transformation so not seeing how you can’t use an attack power on yourself.

It's not an attack upon yourself. Your targeting what you are wearing. Stuff on your body, not your body.

[Ninja-Bear]

33 minutes ago, steriaca said:

It's not an attack upon yourself. Your targeting what you are wearing. Stuff on your body, not your body.

Well there’s a distinction I would’ve thought off nor would I still make. Definitely Ymmv. ?

[steriaca]

 

Well there’s a distinction I would’ve thought off nor would I still make. Definitely Ymmv. ?

Don't blame me for that. Blame Mr. Long.

 

But, of course IYG (It's Your Game). If you feel the need to Transform yourself, go ahead.

 

Just remember the Power Defense of yourself. I don't think you can drop it at will. And the GM is going to enforce the fade rate strictly. And you are going to have to roll your Body or more (or Ego for mental and spiritual Transform). Your going to add powers to yourself that you don't have? Sounds like a major Transform to me...

[Ninja-Bear]

Me. long? Well THAT explains a lot. ??

[clnicholsusa]

Technically, a Cosmetic Transformation limited to targeting the costume being worn, with the transformation limited to disguises simulating humanoids,  and a fully covering costume, would allow a character to take on the appearance of anyone desired.

Of course, the drawback would be that the costume couldn't be easily transformed unless it had a limited amount of BODY. In any real fight, the disguise wouldn't last long without some extra defense.

[steriaca]

 

Technically, a Cosmetic Transformation limited to targeting the costume being worn, with the transformation limited to disguises simulating humanoids,  and a fully covering costume, would allow a character to take on the appearance of anyone desired.

Of course, the drawback would be that the costume couldn't be easily transformed unless it had a limited amount of BODY. In any real fight, the disguise wouldn't last long without some extra defense.

True. But most GM simply use Cosmetic Transformation 1d6 as longhand for "Instant Change". It's either that, or simply bring the Instant Change power to 5th ed and 6th ed. I don't see why not, except for the "two powers which do the exact same thing is an almost no no".

[ghost-angel]

You ask to change on the Genetic Scale - Cosmetic Transform won't do that, as it's designed for Cosmetic Changes only. Basic things like your skin color, the clothes you're wearing, the upholstery on all your furniture...

 

So yeah, it looks very pricey to use Shape Shift in comparison. If you want to actually change an object into something new that's a Major Transform (which falls in with the Cellular Adder on Shapeshift), and is 3x the cost per D6. You'll need enough Dice to double your body as well (and there's nothing in the rules about not being able to use Transform on yourself, it's an Attack, needs a Target, and just like other Adjust Powers of this nature you can certainly use it on yourself).

 

Transform also needs an Undo condition, which Shapreshift does not.

 

So a Cosmetic Transform for a minor disguise (that could probably be removed, depending on SFX, more easily that a Disguise Shapeshift) is doable; but for a major cellular change the Shapeshift will be the better option. There's no reason you can't use two different Powers for the same SFX, depending on which Mechanical Effect works better for the specific desired outcome.

 

Also as a note, Multiform also works well for cellular changes on a major level as it literally changes you from one character to another, but gets clunky and forces you to recreate character sheets for each form.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Right; as others have said, transform cannot be used on yourself. You can transform your clothing, you can maaaybe transform your hairstyle if the GM allows it, but if you're going to change yourself, you have to use a different power than transform.  Shapeshift is pretty cheap but probably still is overpriced, as written.

[steriaca]

One plus over Shape Shift and Multiforn over Transform is that both powers are 100% legal. Also, you don't have to lower your Power Defense if the GM allows it, nor pay 15 org 20 points per dice of it.

[Cassandra]

23 hours ago, Sveta said:

I've been working on a Shape Shifter / Flesh Warper style character for a bit, and came across this peculiar conundrum. I am attempting to have a method that alter's the hero on a genetic scale, refitting their "Natural State" into the new form. Three options immediately came to mind: Multiform, Shape Shift, and Transform. Multiform has henceforth been discarded, as it is concerned more with changing the function of a character, rather than their appearance. Thus, the below comparisons and examples were put forth between Shape Shift and Transform. The only less that entirely certain area in this is the non-verified ability to use Transform on oneself. However, as the listed Target is Any, the rest of the pose will presume that one can use it on oneself, and will impose the limitation Self Only (-1/2) on any Transforms using such.

 

Examples: Shifter-Man wants to change to appear as-

An Eighty year old woman to lay low for a week or two.

Gang Member #8 he had to punch out to get in the building.

Himself, but with blue hair for the ball, as hair dye is expensive.

 

Before advancing further, it became clear as I was musing that these three seem to be the most common archtypes of Self-Shape-Shifting done. Long Term Disguise, Temporary Disguise, and Minor Alterations. From beyond, the examples will be referred to as Such.

 

Long Term Disguise: Shape Shift

For a sustained alteration of this sort, a few options would sort of be required. Sight Group (8), Hearing Group (5), Probably Touch and Mental group (5 and 2), Limited Group for Humanoids (5), Makeover (5), Cellular most likely (10). For it to be a good sustained Disguise, you're looking at Reduced Endurance (0 END, +1/2). So out of the Gate, there's a 60 Active Point power. 

Advantages: Can be done in a Half Phase Action. Mental Obfuscation.

Disadvantages: Pricey.

 

Long Term Disguise: Transform

Same idea going on here. 4d6 Cosmetic (12), Humanoid Result (+1/2), Self Only (-1/2). End Result is a 18 Active Point power, and 12 Real Point Power. Even presuming it was pushed for a Minor Transformation instead, that bumps it up to 30 Active Points and 20 Real Points.

Advantages: Cheap. Lasts when Knocked out.

Disadvantages: Costs END to "Activate," Likely takes around a Turn.

 

Temporary Disguise: Shape Shift

This is really where Shape Shift seems to shine. Sight Group (8), Hearing Group (5), Touch Group (5 ), Limited Group for Humanoids (5),  Imitation (10). Instant Change, just in case (5). This brings it in at 38 Active Points.

Advantages: Near Perfect Mimicry of Form. All but Instant.

Cons: Costs END each turn.

 

Temporary Disguise: Transform

This exists all but exactly as the above Transformation Power. However, mimicry isn't specifically covered, so at best I would imagine something of a Mimicry or Transformation roll would be needed to see how accurate, if the GM allowed such a use at all.

Advantages: Cheap. Lasts When Knocked Out.

Disadvantages: Requires Severe GM Consideration and not likely in the end, Likely takes around a Turn

 

Minor Alteration: Shape Shift

This one could be run on a more minimal approach, taking Sight and Touch Group, with Makeover alone for just 18 Active points. However, you're using energy to keep your makeup on then. So, Sight Group (8), Touch Group, (5), Makeover (5), Limited Group for Humanoid (5), Reduced END (0 END +1/2). Active Points 34.

Advantages: Takes a Half Phase to apply. 

Disadvantages: Pricey for it's effect.

 

Minor Alteration: Transform

Once more, this can be duplicated with the above Transformation Power. This one, however, is covered all but explicitly in the Cosmetic Transformation group. 

Advantages: Cheap. Lasts when Knocked out.

Disadvantages: Costs END to "Activate," Likely takes around a Turn.

 

Net:

Shape Change: Sight Group (8), Hearing Group (5),  Touch Group (5), Mental group (2), Limited Group for Humanoids (5), Makeover (5), Cellular (10), Imitation (10). Instant Change (5), Reduced Endurance (0 END, +1/2): Active 82

Transform: 4d6 Minor (12), Humanoid Result (+1/2), Self Only (-1/2) Active 30. Real 20

 

Results: 

This bothers me. This bothers me severely. Transform is hands and away the more viable option here, with the downside that you likely won't be mimicking anyone, unless actual Skill rolls are involved. Granted, if you bumped Shape Change up to Any Object for a comparatively small increase, for Transform to compete it would have to triple in price. However, as it is, Shape Change, for human transformations, seems to be much more in the avenue of Transform, rather than the presumed Shape Change.

 

Looking back over it, it would seem that I am trying to find a way to cause a substantial physical alteration in the form of the user, rather than mimicking a disguise of some sort, and thus Transform would make more sense. Still, the question is thus. Am I missing anything? Would you do something different in this sort of situation? Questions and concerns are more than appreciated. 

 

For the three descriptions you might be just able to use Transforms: Instant Change [Any].  As long as the outward appearances didn't change your abilities it would at best be a cosmetic transformation.

[Sveta]

Alright. From what I am seeing both here, in the books, and from general conversation, it seems that while Transform is by RAW possible, just not explicitly denounced or stated, it is not the intended purpose and typically not accepted. YMMV indeed there. Shapeshift seems to be the easier way to go for this, with the typical response being to figure out exactly what is wanted and attain only that. Or to go with the Simplified version of Shapeshift (6e APG1 pg115), as it covers a physical change, but not a change in powers or characteristics. 

 

The fact that Complicated Shape Change does not modify those either seems beside the point.

 

The rest is just an aside musing on Transform.
I can see the issue rising why Transform likely would not be usable on the self. The ability to grant oneself any number of bonus's depending on the level of Transform, nearly at will is much better covered under Variable Power Pool. Not to mention it provides a disturbing amount of flexibility to a character with minimal cost. For that viability, twould usually imagine would take a tight look from a GM and pre-defined options that are set forth when the character is built. 

 

On musing over it, I realized a simple exploit to avoid that grey area by punching another grey area exists. Creating a Duplicate that differs from the player, with Transform. And while the ability to make what functions as a Hair Dresser on Steroids amusing me to no end, it also opens the door to make an Igor of sorts that amps the Player beyond belief, so that's a rabbit hole of "I'd rather not."

 

Strangely, most of the powers I would imagine would be more easily attained via "Transforming" make more sense to me as a Multipower full of Fixed slots. Growing Wings, or Digging Claws, or Hammer Arms, or A flexible body (Stretching), or Fins for swimming and Gills. That sort. Granted, you can't grant that power to others, but so it goes.

[BoloOfEarth]

6 minutes ago, Sveta said:

Strangely, most of the powers I would imagine would be more easily attained via "Transforming" make more sense to me as a Multipower full of Fixed slots. Growing Wings, or Digging Claws, or Hammer Arms, or A flexible body (Stretching), or Fins for swimming and Gills. That sort. Granted, you can't grant that power to others, but so it goes.

 

If points allow, I'd think a Variable Power Pool would be more fitting, as you wouldn't be restricted into the specifics of the various slots you pick for a Multipower.  Probably with Change as a Half-Phase Action (+1/2) on the VPP Control Cost, as you have to morph the new changes into being.

 

FWIW, even if you went the Transform (self only) route, you'd have needed to bump those up to Major Transforms to be able to grant yourself new abilities (and roll enough BODY to add those new powers).

[Christopher R Taylor]

Transform self into God:  1d6 Total Transformation, from Me only (very limited target, -1) into anything (Improved Results Group +1).  15 points, and since transform is cumulative, all it takes is time.  The 1 END per phase you use till recover on post 12, so you can do it until you get tired and go to sleep for a few hours.  Say, 10 hours a day at speed 2=2100 points average transform.  Since you only have 10 body, that's a comfortable 2080 points to add to yourself of whatever you want, x5 for a tidy over 10,000 points added to yourself.

 

Per day.

 

Transform doesn't work on yourself.

[ghost-angel]

Undo Condition: no one believes you're God. Transform ends. Back to the beginning...

[Sveta]

Blooming criminy, aright. Reductio ad absurdum indeed...

Multishape: X points. Build is 5X points into Multishape. Repeat ad nauseum. You end up with X*5^N points for the character to blow on whatever the heck. Shoot, could have X*5^(N-C) for the points to have C^2 characters at that many points. Validity? Valid. Same option exists for Summoning, Duplicating, and adding to a normal person via Transform, and use of Follower, and use of other PC's.

 

I understand the ability for abuse that Transform enables, presuming one can use it on oneself. Understand, that ability for abuse exists already, simply taking a few more steps, or even in best case, for others, ad-nauseum. However, I would bet my eyeteeth that no GM with an interest in balance or character composition would allow this, or any number of options that allow such flagrant abuse. There is a reason these powers are marked with Stopsigns. It takes consideration on the player part to figure out what they are doing and GM to see if they are okay with it.

 

As it's not explicitly designated in the books that this is or is not an option, I'll leave it more up into whomever I mess with's GM to figure it out. Is it a slippery slope? Sure, so work with them to put up blooming guard rails. Or if they want, sheer off the top of the mountain. They are the GM, they can pick that option if they wish. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

Transform doesn't work on yourself for two reasons: ridiculously easy to abuse, and takes the place of other existing powers.  That's the bottom line.  Whether its explicitly stated in the 6th edition rules or not, it was in every edition before that, for very good reason.

[clnicholsusa]

It just occurred to me that a certain character (Chameleon) had a belt and costume that allowed him to duplicate the appearance of anyone he could sneak a picture of. For that, a cosmetic transformation of the costume (sight/hearing only) makes more sense than shape shift as the character doesn't change. This also seems point efficient enough to drop into an enemy agent's equipment pool (holograms and voice modulation) in a heroic game for those GM's that aren't devious enough on their own.

FWIW, I avoid shape shift. If I can't get the same effect with a multiform or power pool, I'm probably just trying to glean too much power from the points I have.

[Ninja-Bear]

Well if you can’t use an attack power on yourself, I guess you can’t literally shoot yourself in the foot.