Tech Posted June 6, 2018 Report Share Posted June 6, 2018 I'm thinking of an attack which I'm not sure how to build. The attacker throws a ball of energy at an opponent. Assuming the ball hits the opponent, the ball of energy will continue to hit (unless Missile Deflected, it doesn't penetrate a defensive Force Wall, etc). The damage can vary from say, 6d6 Blast Stun to 3d6 RKA. If the low level damage doesn't affect the opponent, the ball of energy can change to it's higher damage in mid-attack. The attacker can eat a hotdog or watch paint dry which the attack continues on its initial damage. Should the attacker decide, the damage will increase. That's kind of my power idea. How would you build it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funk Thompson Posted June 6, 2018 Report Share Posted June 6, 2018 Multipower, with various slots, all linked to an initial attack built outside the MP. The attacker can then change the MP slot on his phase, while the original, constant / continuous attack is maintained? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funk Thompson Posted June 6, 2018 Report Share Posted June 6, 2018 (Or, heck, just various powers outside an MP linked to the originating power / attack.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eepjr24 Posted June 7, 2018 Report Share Posted June 7, 2018 None of those actually fit the description he gave. The only way I could come up with would involve some GM hand waving and would be fairly expensive. Something along the lines of: 6d6 Blast, Persistent (+3/4), Stun only (-0), Cannot apply simultaneously (-1) AP: 52 RP: 26 AND 3d6 RKA, Persistint (+3/4), Cannot apply simultaneously (-1) AP: 79 RP: 34 The hand waving comes in with allowing you to increase or switch powers. As a GM, I would probably make you pay for Variable Effect (+1/2) to account for that, increasing the cost further. All of the above assumes that you are still paying END for the powers, otherwise I would be VERY leery of allowing something like this and you would also have trouble paying for it and staying under campaign AP limits for most campaigns. - E Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tombrown803 Posted June 8, 2018 Report Share Posted June 8, 2018 how about a multipower with constant (+1/2) attached to the reserve, not each slot individually? That way you could make your attack roll, hit, and then change what damage you want to do each phase. On phase 1 you hit them with slot 1, a blast. When that doesn't work, on your second phase switch to slot 2, the RKA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funk Thompson Posted June 8, 2018 Report Share Posted June 8, 2018 2 hours ago, tombrown803 said: how about a multipower with constant (+1/2) attached to the reserve, not each slot individually? That way you could make your attack roll, hit, and then change what damage you want to do each phase. On phase 1 you hit them with slot 1, a blast. When that doesn't work, on your second phase switch to slot 2, the RKA. I'm not sure that would be legal, and I would put the Constant modifier on the base attack (since the secondary / linked attack won't also go off each phase, only one slot will, whether chosen by the attacker, or by the GM or at random or whatever. Here is a quick and dirty on how I would do this: Blast 6 1/2d6, Constant (+1/2) (49 Active Points) Multipower, 50-point reserve, (50 Active Points); all slots Linked (Blast; -1/4) Blast 3 1/2d6, Indirect (Source Point is the same for every use, path is from Source Point to target; +1/4), No Range Modifier (+1/2), Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; Triggered when linked Blast Power hits.; +1) (49 Active Points); Linked (Blast; -1/4) Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6, Indirect (Source Point is the same for every use, path is from Source Point to target; +1/4), No Range Modifier (+1/2), Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; Triggered when linked Blast Power hits.; +1) (41 Active Points); Linked (Blast; -1/2) The Blast is constant, the MP slots are triggered by the linked blast dealing it's damage. The linked attacks are indirect (assuming they "originate at the target" and are not separate beams or bolts or whatever from the attacker) and attack with no range modifier. If the linked secondary attack used is not chosen per-phase by the attacker, put on a private limitation to the MP that the attacker / user has limited (-1) or no conscious control (-2) on which power is activated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eepjr24 Posted June 8, 2018 Report Share Posted June 8, 2018 6e1 400: "A character can purchase a Constant or Persistent Power as a slot in a Multipower or Variable Power Pool. If he changes the reserve/Pool allocation to another slot while that Constant or Persistent Power is in use, the power immediately ceases to operate unless it’s bought Uncontrolled, with Continuing Charges, or with some similar Power Modifier (or the rules applicable to that power specifically exempt it from this rule)." That was part of why I avoided multipowers and VPP's. After re-reading persistent and constant, I would switch back to Constant, I mis-remembered having to have LoS for constant stuff. YMMV for all of this, there does not look to be a rules as written way to do this without some GM approval. - E Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funk Thompson Posted June 8, 2018 Report Share Posted June 8, 2018 Right, which is why you make the initial attack a small, constant attack, then the MP / VPP slots linked to the source attack but not constant. They don't apply their damage every phase; a new attack is made for that phase using the separate, linked, desired / GM-determined secondary attack. Because only the source attack is constant, though, you'll still have to make an attack roll for the secondary attack, each phase. Pretty sure even Trigger won't remove that requirement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eepjr24 Posted June 8, 2018 Report Share Posted June 8, 2018 Sure, but it does not do what he asked, either, which is being able to switch from a blast to a killing attack at will and switch among them at will, all without a new to hit roll. The only way I can think of to do that is to have a compound power, so each has actually already hit (and are constant) and you are simply varying the power. It would be (and should be) expensive as defined. - E Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funk Thompson Posted June 8, 2018 Report Share Posted June 8, 2018 It was the best I could think of, and realize it may not fit his every need, but might give him a launching-off point. Perhaps the source power could be even less damaging or whatever, and then make the slots AOE: 1 hex Accurate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ockham's Spoon Posted June 8, 2018 Report Share Posted June 8, 2018 Do you have your heart set on switching between a regular Blast and an RKA? If your goal is that the damage can just scale up or change its nature, you can pick one attack or the other and then put a Variable Advantage on it and Variable Special Effects as well so you can change the Variable Advantage at will. The initial attack might start off with Area of Effect 2m Radius and 0 END so that it is easy to hit with and isn't taxing. If the target isn't significantly hurt, then you can change the Variable Advantage to Armor Piercing or Penetrating or even Attack vs Alternate Defense (although then it becomes STUN only). That gives you a single stream-lined power that you can adjust to make sure the target will take damage. Of course this only works if you can get your GM to allow it, because there should be serious Stop Signs on such an ability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsatow Posted June 8, 2018 Report Share Posted June 8, 2018 Personally, I would just do a slavish summons to run the attack. The summons would have the ability to continue and up the attack on your command. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eepjr24 Posted June 12, 2018 Report Share Posted June 12, 2018 On 6/8/2018 at 6:47 PM, dsatow said: Personally, I would just do a slavish summons to run the attack. The summons would have the ability to continue and up the attack on your command. But they could not switch between RKA and Blast without a new attack roll still, unless I am missing something? - E Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unclevlad Posted June 12, 2018 Report Share Posted June 12, 2018 But that's the problem with what OP is asking for. He can use an inexpensive, low-End base attack until it hits...then convert it to a major, high-damage, high-End attack. I can see the variable effects, perhaps, but I would never allow the number of DCs in the attack to be increased after the attack hits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sveta Posted June 12, 2018 Report Share Posted June 12, 2018 At it's core, this smells to me of a Constant Blast type of power. I thought Uncontrolled for a moment, but then one wouldn't be able to influence it later. The fundamental ability to change the amount of power put into a, well, Power is already a fundamental part of how Powers work. (6e1 pg 131 under Full Power). So if you have a general idea of how much the maximum you want to be able to do is, take a Blast up to that point. Then simply use it at higher or lower levels as you wish. What I'm getting though is that you are wanting to be able to adjust this level of power on the fly, rather than just the start. Crunch wise, I'm not seeing anything that says you can't adjust how many points you are putting into a constant power on the fly, if you are already putting in under the maximum amount. I am however seeing it implying such. As per 6e1 pg127 under Duration: Constant Powers, it says: Quote Once a character has established a Constant Power, he can’t alter the effect he established (unless the specific rules for a Power say otherwise). For example, a character cannot make an area of Darkness larger or smaller. (Movement Powers are an exception; a character can alter them to accelerate or decelerate.) To alter the Power, he has to stop using it, then re-activate it at the level of effect he now wants (in the case of Powers like Change Environment and Images, this requires him to take an Attack Action). However, there is precedent if a GM wishes to allow one to alter the amount of power put in at a time. Just a bit below, pg128, it lists a 5pt adder for constant area effect powers to change their area without having to re-use the power. Whether they would wish to add it in as a 5pt adder, or a +1/4 is up to them. If your GM is less lenient and is more strict, I'd recommend asking about buying then around the minimum of what you would expect to be doing as a Constant Blast, then aquire Aid Blast for Self Only. It is less than ideal and technically does not change the power of abilities already in use, however one could argue that if you halved the result, it would apply to powers that are already active, as it does already with defensive powers. But, YMMV. Oh. You could also attain a low powered Blast and then simply apply the Damage over Time advantage. Increasing the damage then would still take effort (using it again), but it would go without their worry then. You just have to note that you'd have to up it eventually, else it would fade out. Also know that Damage over Time makes many people nervous, I've noticed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unclevlad Posted June 12, 2018 Report Share Posted June 12, 2018 I think one big question I'd have as GM is, why? What's the goal here? I get that it's cool, but Constant is rather potent, if potentially expensive. One of the other qualms is making major, fundamental shifts in the qualitative nature of the attack. You went from a normal attack with, say RedPen, to a killing attack. Those are generally radically different beasts, and they're 2 separate slots. You're asking for an end to a pretty central metarule: to do this kind of switch, normally, you have to terminate power 1, then apply power 2...which means another attack roll. I'm not saying I'd allow it, but it'd be a lot easier to buy if you just wanted to ramp up the starting damage to something higher. That's feasible...define the extra damage as needing Extra Time. If you include Variable Special Effect, then I might allow you to reconfigure all the damage with that, as it's ongoing. But note that this is now all 1 power, and 1 slot. Active points are going through the roof if you're talking a multipower or VPP. END cost per use is going up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsatow Posted June 12, 2018 Report Share Posted June 12, 2018 16 hours ago, unclevlad said: But that's the problem with what OP is asking for. He can use an inexpensive, low-End base attack until it hits...then convert it to a major, high-damage, high-End attack. I can see the variable effects, perhaps, but I would never allow the number of DCs in the attack to be increased after the attack hits. Its possible to build an increase in damage by using aid to increase the original attack or drain/suppress to reduce the defense against the attack. Its not possible to change the type of attack without a new to hit roll. In any case, as a theoretical build, its fine to come up with ideas. Whether a GM will actually allow a player to get away with something like this is another story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unclevlad Posted June 12, 2018 Report Share Posted June 12, 2018 33 minutes ago, dsatow said: Its possible to build an increase in damage by using aid to increase the original attack or drain/suppress to reduce the defense against the attack. Its not possible to change the type of attack without a new to hit roll. In any case, as a theoretical build, its fine to come up with ideas. Whether a GM will actually allow a player to get away with something like this is another story. On the theoretical part, sure, but feasibility is a reasonable aspect of the discussion. You're suggesting a sequence like this, I think: a) Blast at basic strength. Bought as Constant. Attack hits, does its base damage. b) next phase, Aid to Blast. It automatically hits because the target of the Aid is Self. This adds points to the ongoing Blast so now it's stronger. From a rules standpoint, it's technically legal I suppose, but it's tending to give more Effect than it costs. If the Blast has just Constant and 1/2 End, each +1d6 would be 8.75 points, which means 2d or 2 1/2 d Aid. Aid gets the wonkin' big Self Only mod. You could add Constant to just let the Blast grow forever, and now, say, just Dodge to your heart's content...or, you could eschew the Constant and take multiple actions to increase the Blast to the limit of your Aid. Assume the latter; Now. given the slow fade rate, you may well be able to skip the Reduced END on the Aid. It's less necessary because you know it's guaranteed to be effective...there's no chance it'll be wasted. So you could buy 9d6 Aid for 27 points. One use is adding 31 points onto the Blast, for multiple rounds. That's gonna be 3 to 4 d6 mostly, depending on the roll, and a second use is likely to cap it out at +6d6. Now, to be sure, this is taking time, and time and actions are the currency of combat. And the points for the Blast and the Aid have to be distinct as they both have to be in use. So I might allow it, if the concept and full details of the implementation work for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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