Weaponmaster/Deadly Blow/Martial Arts... all together now!

[RDU Neil]

I think this is a quick, easy, question... but often there are nuances in Hero that come up, especially in the world of 5th/6th and the naked advantages as well as this allowable build that stacks damage abilities on top of equipment damage. (Extra DCs on top of a gun you didn't pay points for... which has always struck me as breaking a fundamental concept of Hero... powers and equipment don't mix... but anyway...)

 

If a character has Deadly Blow "Headshots only" and Weaponmaster "Pistols" and ranged Martial Arts with added damage classes with his Pistol... it is correct that there is nothing in RAW to stop all this damage from stacking? So a 9mm pistol does 1d6+1K... plus 1d6K if a headshot, +1d6K for being a pistol, plus 2 more damage classes from Far Shot or whatever... pistol does 4d6K? (Not involving hit location multipliers at this point.)

Correct? As per RAW, there is no reason these all can't stack together? (I'm not saying there aren't issues of balance here, just checking RAW.)

 

There is also nothing in RAW saying that this only applies to human/soft targets... because now that 9mm isn't just a perfect shot to the eye... even if you take away Deadly Blow, and now only 3d6K, that 9mm is doing hellacious damage to non-headshots as well.

 

Just checking to see if I'm reading this right.

 

 

[Funk Thompson]

By RAW, yrs, anything stacks with anything so far as adding damage or DEF - unless otherwise noted by limitations.

 

The solution is campaign limits on DEF and Damage Classes.

[RDU Neil]

22 minutes ago, Funk Thompson said:

By RAW, yrs, anything stacks with anything so far as adding damage or DEF - unless otherwise noted by limitations.

 

The solution is campaign limits on DEF and Damage Classes.

 

cool... thanks... that was what I assumed from the reading, but wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something. My current game is one where limited use of Weaponmaster or Deadly Blow would be in sync with the genre/action/character expectations, but misuse of it would break the game easily. Before I started figuring out campaign limits, I wanted to make sure I understood RAW correctly.

 

[eepjr24]

RAW it is fine. Campaign limits are one solution, GM approval is another. Weaponmaster is a stop sign power, Deadly Blow is a yield sign, and I also consider ranged martial arts to be a yield sign power for most campaigns. I would pretty much veto combinations that used more than one level of any two of those without some very good explanations and character based limits in place to restrict them (psych lims or the like). It just stinks of power gaming to me. I don't have a problem with adding to the power of "equipment" that is not individually paid for, but I do tend to use equipment pools in those games to prevent the worst types of abuse.

 

- E

[Christougher]

In %E, Martial DCs were halved when added to killing attacks/maneuvers.  Not sure if 6E changed that.

 

Also, you forgot to (dis)allow Naked Advantages on said firearms, though at least they would have to cover the points in the weapon's damage to use it properly.

 

Chris.

 

[RDU Neil]

8 minutes ago, eepjr24 said:

RAW it is fine. Campaign limits are one solution, GM approval is another. Weaponmaster is a stop sign power, Deadly Blow is a yield sign, and I also consider ranged martial arts to be a yield sign power for most campaigns. I would pretty much veto combinations that used more than one level of any two of those without some very good explanations and character based limits in place to restrict them (psych lims or the like). It just stinks of power gaming to me. I don't have a problem with adding to the power of "equipment" that is not individually paid for, but I do tend to use equipment pools in those games to prevent the worst types of abuse.

 

- E

 

I don't worry about my players purposefully power gaming to break the game. They are mature enough, but they would say, "Hey, if you allow this, you realize X, Y, and Z are really easy to abuse..." and we'd have a discussion about the right ways for it to work in the campaign. I was, in fact, having this conversation with my players, which was why I wanted to verify my interpretation of the RAW, so we were working from the correct base for our campaign guidelines. we already have restrictions to MA (no extra DCs allowed, in fact we reduce all MA added damage by 1DC to a min of +1DC, to keep punches and kicks more 'normal' and less super).  I'm thinking if I allow a character to have 1 version, bought only at the lowest 12 pt level... either Deadly Blow or Weaponmaster (Weaponmaster definitely feels more broken), and only one instance of it. It will probably end up being something each PC has, to reflect their "best attack" which doesn't bother me, as it is a combat oriented game. 

 

Basically it will become like Combat Luck for these games... every PC and named combat NPC will have it. Kinda like every character class has some kind of extra damage feat in D&D. Not my favorite concept, but it may work for this current campaign.

[eepjr24]

1 minute ago, RDU Neil said:

 

I don't worry about my players purposefully power gaming to break the game. They are mature enough, but they would say, "Hey, if you allow this, you realize X, Y, and Z are really easy to abuse..." and we'd have a discussion about the right ways for it to work in the campaign. I was, in fact, having this conversation with my players, which was why I wanted to verify my interpretation of the RAW, so we were working from the correct base for our campaign guidelines. we already have restrictions to MA (no extra DCs allowed, in fact we reduce all MA added damage by 1DC to a min of +1DC, to keep punches and kicks more 'normal' and less super).  I'm thinking if I allow a character to have 1 version, bought only at the lowest 12 pt level... either Deadly Blow or Weaponmaster (Weaponmaster definitely feels more broken), and only one instance of it. It will probably end up being something each PC has, to reflect their "best attack" which doesn't bother me, as it is a combat oriented game. 

 

Basically it will become like Combat Luck for these games... every PC and named combat NPC will have it. Kinda like every character class has some kind of extra damage feat in D&D. Not my favorite concept, but it may work for this current campaign.

 

I strongly support using these types of powers when players are using it to distinguish themselves from others, which can be difficult in lower powered games combat wise. And if your players are reasonable you most likely won't have a problem with it, just keep an eye on things.

 

Case in point, we had an expert Hero player who played in our "Kill or be killed" arena style one offs. He also GM'd and played in a "kids" game as Rocket Red, a kid with psychological limitations that prevented him walking. He rode a rocket powered skate board and was basically a gadgeteer with lots of little powers built as MP's and VPP's who was a blast to play with and generally one of the comedic reliefs of the game. One game Rocket Red ended up in a place that the GM did not predict and in the way of a fairly major killing attack (an NND Does Body, if I recall). It took him to one body in a single shot. Rocket Red had to make some psych rolls and I think an enraged roll because he was off his board, nearly dead, etc. So he went down behind a shop window and started making gadgeteering rolls and frantically scribbling. When he stood up after post 12 he had kit bashed an autofire marble machine gun that pretty much took out the bad guy in a phase. We all just kind of looked at him because no one had ever really considered what would happen if he put all those VPP's into something designed to kill.

 

- E

[ghost-angel]

The other option aside from Campaign Limits/Guidelines (a goo=d idea anyway), is to use the DCs Of Equipment Can't Be More Than Doubled. If the Gun is free stuff, there's an upper limit to it. If the gun is paid for.. well, back to Campaign Guidelines.

[eepjr24]

39 minutes ago, ghost-angel said:

The other option aside from Campaign Limits/Guidelines (a goo=d idea anyway), is to use the DCs Of Equipment Can't Be More Than Doubled. If the Gun is free stuff, there's an upper limit to it. If the gun is paid for.. well, back to Campaign Guidelines.

And for off the shelf guns, this really does make sense. They can already get a decent amount of damage out of a gun by adding special rounds, scopes and other OCV modifiers (if you use hit locations), etc. It makes sense that a small piece of lead is only capable of causing so much damage no matter how you shoot it or what you shoot it into. 

 

- E

[Funk Thompson]

Advantage on the attack also changes how many DC's you get for extra DC's.  +1/2 on the attack = 7.5 per DC so 4 extra damage classes for +1d6k (I think.  I suck at the math of "adding damage" on the fly, and usually note it on characters for their STR and/or martial maneuvers with weapons.)

[unclevlad]

Considering the math can get weird easily...+1/2 is not bad, but something like +1.25?  Odd.

 

Trick 1:  go the other way. For +1/4, +1/2, and +1, you can divide the current net active points, THEN convert to DCs.  +1/4 means 4 points towards the damage dice needs 5 points active.  So multiply by 0.8.  20 active rolled * 0.8 would mean 16 active to boosting attack strength, so +3d6 normal or +1d6 killing.  Similarly,, +1/2 means 2 points towards damage costs 3.  Multilply the roll by 2/3.  Not too bad.  +1 is easy;  just cut the bonus points in half.  This works for Aids, Drains, or any kind of maneuver bonus.  Weaponmaster +1d6 killing is 15 points of "aid".  

 

Trick 2:  it shouldn't be hard to build a spreadsheet or work up a little program to be a DC calculator.  Put in the points being added, put in the advantages, it shows the DCs you get out of it.  Either construct a chart to print, or an app for use at the table.  Java, that's easy, and packaging as a standalone file is easy.  iOS and Android, the functional code is easy enough;  I've only played a tiny amount in the Android cycle, but someone used to coding in it should find it easy.  Now it's something that could be on your phone, and lord knows we all have our phones *everywhere*.  Heck, there might be something on the app stores for all I know.

[RDU Neil]

4 hours ago, ghost-angel said:

The other option aside from Campaign Limits/Guidelines (a goo=d idea anyway), is to use the DCs Of Equipment Can't Be More Than Doubled. If the Gun is free stuff, there's an upper limit to it. If the gun is paid for.. well, back to Campaign Guidelines.

 

Actually I was thinking of this (I don't think it will be a problem in this game) but I kinda like the idea that any damage added to equipment can only go as far as max damage on the weapon (assuming ranged attack, HKA's are already limited to no more than double) Essentially guaranteeing max damage isn't overpowered, but makes the damage significant 7 damage on every shot by a 9mm would be really good, but we don't have that pistol punching through body armor when it shouldn't (again, in a game of cinematic realism.)

I think I'll try that.

[Funk Thompson]

2 hours ago, unclevlad said:

Considering the math can get weird easily...+1/2 is not bad, but something like +1.25?  Odd.

 

Trick 1:  go the other way. For +1/4, +1/2, and +1, you can divide the current net active points, THEN convert to DCs.  +1/4 means 4 points towards the damage dice needs 5 points active.  So multiply by 0.8.  20 active rolled * 0.8 would mean 16 active to boosting attack strength, so +3d6 normal or +1d6 killing.  Similarly,, +1/2 means 2 points towards damage costs 3.  Multilply the roll by 2/3.  Not too bad.  +1 is easy;  just cut the bonus points in half.  This works for Aids, Drains, or any kind of maneuver bonus.  Weaponmaster +1d6 killing is 15 points of "aid".  

 

Trick 2:  it shouldn't be hard to build a spreadsheet or work up a little program to be a DC calculator.  Put in the points being added, put in the advantages, it shows the DCs you get out of it.  Either construct a chart to print, or an app for use at the table.  Java, that's easy, and packaging as a standalone file is easy.  iOS and Android, the functional code is easy enough;  I've only played a tiny amount in the Android cycle, but someone used to coding in it should find it easy.  Now it's something that could be on your phone, and lord knows we all have our phones *everywhere*.  Heck, there might be something on the app stores for all I know.

 

There's a handy chart in the book, but it only goes so wide / so tall - some of my Star HERO stuff has insane advantages, as do a handful of FH spells and such.

[unclevlad]

That chart's got errors.  Ugh.  At least on the regular damage side...killing damage is actually a little simpler because there's no such thing as 1/2 of a damage class.

 

For a power with more than the +1 Advantage:

 

NORMAL damage:  take the DCs added.  Divide by (1 + Advantage).  So, 4 DCs with +2 1/2 in advantages = 4 / 3.5 = 1.14.  So it's 1 full die of damage for sure.  The fraction?

 

If less than 0.25, it's 0.

If between 0.25 and 0.75, it should be 1/2 die.  

If >= 0.75, it's another full die.

 

That method should be correct for any number of DCs and any amount of Advantage.  6 DCs added, +1/2 advantage = 6 /1.5 = 4.  Bingo.  6 DCs, 3/4 advantage = 6 / 1.75 = 3.43.  That means 3 1/2 dice.  Bingo.

 

Killing damage is weird because they handle +1/2d and +1d-1 in different ways, in different rules aspects.