Guns and Ammo

[Surrealone]

18 hours ago, Deadman said:

At any rate I suppose I should have posted a disclaimer on my first post.

 

I am not mandating nor even suggesting that any of my ideas be used in your game.  I am merely presenting my opinion and ideas for your consideration and as possible seeds for changes you may want to incorporate.  Use them at entirely at your discretion.  I will not be held liable for any fallout that arises from the use or abuse of any of these ideas.  If you plan to play in one of my games in the future (provided I overcome my current blah attitude toward GMing) understand that I reserve the right to incorporate some or all of these rules into that game.  Your agreement to participate in said game is your binding word not to whine, complain or otherwise try to dissuade me from my set course of action.

I needed the chuckle this gave me, today.  Thank you!

 

Disclaimer: This show of appreciation subject to clarification or withdrawl and implies no promise by the thanker to actually implement this show of appreciation.

 

 

[Deadman]

I think this is a good time to summarize what we have discussed thus far.  All of the options are designed to add a bit of realism (tongue in cheek) while keeping with the cinematic feel of a roleplaying game firefight.  I have modified some of the entries from their original presentation based on comments and my own thoughts.

 

Disclaimer: I am not mandating nor even suggesting that any of these ideas be used in your game.  I am merely presenting my opinion and ideas for your consideration and as possible seeds for changes you may want to incorporate.  Use them at entirely at your discretion.  I will not be held liable for any fallout that arises from the use or abuse of any of these ideas.  If you plan to play in one of my games in the future (provided I overcome my current blah attitude toward GMing) understand that I reserve the right to incorporate some or all of these rules into that game.  Your agreement to participate in said game is your binding word not to whine, complain or otherwise try to dissuade me from my set course of action.

 

1. Muzzle Energy Based Damage - Base Damage is directly linked to Muzzle Energy (in Joules)of Round.  This is subject to be altered based on Shape of the Round, Composition of Round (material) and/or Characteristics of the Round

   • Firearms Damage
     DC	Joules	Example	Kdamage
     1	50	Pellet Gun	1 pip
     2	100	.22 Long Rifle	1/2d6
     3	200	.380 ACP	1d6
     4	400	9mm, .45 ACP	1d6+1
     5	800	.357 Magnum	1 1/2d6
     6	1600	.44 Magnum, 5.56mm	2d6
     7	3200	7.62	2d6+1
     8	6400	.458 Win Magnum	2 1/2d6
     9	12500	.50 BMG	3d6

2. Killing Damage Intricacies - Breaks down incremental damage between Damage Classes for increased diversity of damage.

   • Killing Damage Breakout Points Kdamage Range 5 1 1 6 1 1 7 1 1 8 1d2 1-2 9 1d2 1-2 10 1d3 1-3 11 1d3 1-3 12 1d3 1-3 13 1d4 1-4 14 1d6-1 0-5 15 1d6 1-6

3. Armor Piercing Optional Use - Armor Piercing does not reduce the defense to half its value.  Instead it pierces through an amount of defense equal to the BODY damage rolled on the attack for a +1/2 Advantage.  Semi Armor Piercing is thus 1/2 of the BODY damage rolled on the attack for a +1/4 Advantage.  This can be made Standard Effect and therefore pierce through an amount of defense equal to the Damage Class of the attack at the Player/GM's option.
4. Pistol vs. Rifle Rounds - Rifle rounds act as Semi Armor Piercing vs. Soft Body Armor by default.  This is a characteristic of the Real Armor Limitation and does not qualify for an additional Limitation.
5. Body Armor - All Body Armor will use Sectional Coverage Rules based on the area that is armored.  Additionally the Requires a Roll Limitation will be used to define the amount of that body part covered.  Soft Body Armor will follow the write-ups in the RAW with the addition of the definition above with regard to Rifle Rounds.  Hard Body Armor will be constructed using the rules for Barrier.  This will mean that if a round does not penetrate no STUN damage will carry through.  A sample write-up follows
   • Trauma Plates - Level IV Ceramic:  Barrier 8 PD/8 ED, 2 BODY (up to 1m long, 1m tall, and 1/2m thick), Personal Defense (+0), Hardened (+1/4), Persistent (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (60 Active Points); Sectional Defenses (Covers Locations 10-12; 36.57%) (-1), OIF (-1/2), Ablative BODY Only (-1/2), Requires A Roll (11- roll; -1/2), Half Mass (-1/2), Real Armor (-1/4) 14 Real Cost
6. Autofire Optional Use - Autofire is amended so that 1 additional shot will Hit the target for each point that the shot hits by.  This will also affect the cost of Autofire as follows: 2 Shots - +1/4 Advantage, 3 Shots - +1/2 Advantage, 5 Shots - +3/4 Advantage, Each doubling of Shots is a +1/2 additional Advantage.  When firing more than one shot the Range Modifier is doubled if the weapon is not mounted.
7. Multiple Attack Optional Use - Multiple Attacks will be done at a -1 OCV per shot after the first instead of the -2 in the RAW.  Range Modifiers are doubled as with Autofire above.  The number of Multiple attacks allowed is limited by weapon type (i.e. Revolvers - 2, Low Caliber Semi-Automatic - 4, High Caliber Semi-Automatic - 3, etc.).  Additionally each attack is performed individually, so while in the RAW if you miss the first shot you miss the rest, this will not be the case with this option.

That is what we have covered so far.  Your mileage may vary, use at your own risk.  Next up: Hit Locations, Grace Under Fire, Blowthough and Knockdown...

 

T

[IndianaJoe3]

10 hours ago, RDU Neil said:

But I did lowere Multiple Attack minuses to -1 (simple change), but limited the number of MA that can be attempted based on type of attack (complexity here, but that is fully on me as GM to officiate. If you are fighting with a short knife, yes, you can do up to 3 MAs... you are fighting with a Halberd, nope... ain't happening. For guns, automatics get up to 5 shots, revolvers only 3, larger load .44 and up, only 2.  Any increase beyond that means -X to every shot, where X is the number of shots fired. So you can theoretically try to fire 6 shots with your Berretta 9mm, but it will be at -6 per shot. Whereas 5 shots would be -4 per shot, etc.)

 

How are the larger automatics (Automag, Desert Eagle, etc) treated in this system?

[RDU Neil]

1 hour ago, IndianaJoe3 said:

 

How are the larger automatics (Automag, Desert Eagle, etc) treated in this system?

 

Honestly hasn't come up, but I'd say, kneejerk ruling, either same as large caliber revolvers, or at best, as normal revolvers. The kick on them is just big enough that bringing them back on target takes more time, even if just fractions of a second, but it is significant. (At least my very limited experience firing a Desert Eagle .50, made the Berretta and Sig I normally fired feel positively like pop-guns when it came to recoil.  But that was 20 years or more ago.)

 

And when it comes to revolvers, I'm talking double action, cocked to pull off multiple shots. I may be being generous to give revolvers even 2 shots, let alone 3... but have fired .38 special loads from a .357, I could see a skilled shooter pulling it off. Not me... but a skilled shooter.

[RDU Neil]

6 hours ago, Deadman said:

I think this is a good time to summarize what we have discussed thus far.  All of the options are designed to add a bit of realism (tongue in cheek) while keeping with the cinematic feel of a roleplaying game firefight.  I have modified some of the entries from their original presentation based on comments and my own thoughts.

 

Disclaimer: I am not mandating nor even suggesting that any of these ideas be used in your game.  I am merely presenting my opinion and ideas for your consideration and as possible seeds for changes you may want to incorporate.  Use them at entirely at your discretion.  I will not be held liable for any fallout that arises from the use or abuse of any of these ideas.  If you plan to play in one of my games in the future (provided I overcome my current blah attitude toward GMing) understand that I reserve the right to incorporate some or all of these rules into that game.  Your agreement to participate in said game is your binding word not to whine, complain or otherwise try to dissuade me from my set course of action.

 

1. Muzzle Energy Based Damage - Base Damage is directly linked to Muzzle Energy (in Joules)of Round.  This is subject to be altered based on Shape of the Round, Composition of Round (material) and/or Characteristics of the Round

   • Firearms Damage
     DC	Joules	Example	Kdamage
     1	50	Pellet Gun	1 pip
     2	100	.22 Long Rifle	1/2d6
     3	200	.380 ACP	1d6
     4	400	9mm, .45 ACP	1d6+1
     5	800	.357 Magnum	1 1/2d6
     6	1600	.44 Magnum, 5.56mm	2d6
     7	3200	7.62	2d6+1
     8	6400	.458 Win Magnum	2 1/2d6
     9	12500	.50 BMG	3d6

2. Killing Damage Intricacies - Breaks down incremental damage between Damage Classes for increased diversity of damage.

   • Killing Damage Breakout Points Kdamage Range 5 1 1 6 1 1 7 1 1 8 1d2 1-2 9 1d2 1-2 10 1d3 1-3 11 1d3 1-3 12 1d3 1-3 13 1d4 1-4 14 1d6-1 0-5 15 1d6 1-6

3. Armor Piercing Optional Use - Armor Piercing does not reduce the defense to half its value.  Instead it pierces through an amount of defense equal to the BODY damage rolled on the attack for a +1/2 Advantage.  Semi Armor Piercing is thus 1/2 of the BODY damage rolled on the attack for a +1/4 Advantage.  This can be made Standard Effect and therefore pierce through an amount of defense equal to the Damage Class of the attack at the Player/GM's option.
4. Pistol vs. Rifle Rounds - Rifle rounds act as Semi Armor Piercing vs. Soft Body Armor by default.  This is a characteristic of the Real Armor Limitation and does not qualify for an additional Limitation.
5. Body Armor - All Body Armor will use Sectional Coverage Rules based on the area that is armored.  Additionally the Requires a Roll Limitation will be used to define the amount of that body part covered.  Soft Body Armor will follow the write-ups in the RAW with the addition of the definition above with regard to Rifle Rounds.  Hard Body Armor will be constructed using the rules for Barrier.  This will mean that if a round does not penetrate no STUN damage will carry through.  A sample write-up follows
   • Trauma Plates - Level IV Ceramic:  Barrier 8 PD/8 ED, 2 BODY (up to 1m long, 1m tall, and 1/2m thick), Personal Defense (+0), Hardened (+1/4), Persistent (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (60 Active Points); Sectional Defenses (Covers Locations 10-12; 36.57%) (-1), OIF (-1/2), Ablative BODY Only (-1/2), Requires A Roll (11- roll; -1/2), Half Mass (-1/2), Real Armor (-1/4) 14 Real Cost
6. Autofire Optional Use - Autofire is amended so that 1 additional shot will Hit the target for each point that the shot hits by.  This will also affect the cost of Autofire as follows: 2 Shots - +1/4 Advantage, 3 Shots - +1/2 Advantage, 5 Shots - +3/4 Advantage, Each doubling of Shots is a +1/2 additional Advantage.  When firing more than one shot the Range Modifier is doubled if the weapon is not mounted.
7. Multiple Attack Optional Use - Multiple Attacks will be done at a -1 OCV per shot after the first instead of the -2 in the RAW.  Range Modifiers are doubled as with Autofire above.  The number of Multiple attacks allowed is limited by weapon type (i.e. Revolvers - 2, Low Caliber Semi-Automatic - 4, High Caliber Semi-Automatic - 3, etc.).  Additionally each attack is performed individually, so while in the RAW if you miss the first shot you miss the rest, this will not be the case with this option.

That is what we have covered so far.  Your mileage may vary, use at your own risk.  Next up: Hit Locations, Grace Under Fire, Blowthough and Knockdown...

 

T

 

Yep... basically all of this what I have in play, though it isn't about point costs for me, since I play Heroic level. 

 

I don't currently use the -1 for Autofire, just for MA, since the minuses add up beyond the first... but maybe for close range, -0 range mod, 1-3 meters, that is the right thing to do. Up close and personal, multiple shots should be really, really scary deadly.  As soon as it gets into -1 range (4-6 meters) or beyond, back to -2 per shot to hit.

 

Probably making it too complicated, but yeah... been enjoying thinking about how these little tweaks really work.

 

If we were to go further... what if you got a +1 OCV for every 2 shots expended, when using autofire for added chance to hit, rather than multiple hits. Still can only hit once, but a 10 round autofire fusillade would be +5 to hit?

 

hmmm... maybe, maybe not... I could tweak things forever... 

[Deadman]

Hit Locations

The RAW Hit Location tables work pretty well in most cases.  In my opinion they just need to be better defined and perhaps the damage could be adjusted.  Here is the current RAW Hit Location Table.

 

Hit Location Table
3d6 Roll	Location	STUNx	N STUN	BODYx	To Hit
3-5	Head	x5	x2	x2	-8 OCV
6	Hands	x1	x½	x½	-6 OCV
7-8	Arms	x2	x½	x½	-5 OCV
9	Shoulders	x3	x1	x1	-5 OCV
10-11	Chest	x3	x1	x1	-3 OCV
12	Stomach	x4	x1½	x1	-7 OCV
13	Vitals	x4	x1½	x2	-8 OCV
14	Thighs	x2	x1	x1	-4 OCV
15-16	Legs	x2	x½	x½	-6 OCV
17-18	Feet	X1	x½	x½	-8 OCV
If necessary, roll 1d6 to determine left or right side (hands, arms, shoulders, thighs, legs, feet).  If you roll a 1, 2, or 3, the left side is hit; if you roll a 4, 5, or 6, the right side is hit.

 

My personal opinion is that the STUNx, N STUN and BODYx are a bit too severe.  I think of STUN as the pain that one endures until they fall unconscious and to always assign a x5 to the Head and a x1 to the Hands seems unrealistic somehow. 

 

I personally have replaced the old 1d6-1 and the new 1d3 STUN Multiplier with 1d4 in my Heroic games.  In the past I have assigned a STUN Multiplier Modifier to the area.  For example if someone were hit in the Head the attacker would still roll 1d4 but would add 1 to the roll giving a range of x2-x5.  Is that too lenient?  Should it be +2?  Should it have a cap of the most that can be rolled on a die?  For example it could be made +2 but would still cap at x4 giving it a range of x3-x4.  Would buying up the STUN Multiplier add to this cap?

 

As for N STUN and BODY I think that they are also too severe but at the same time I can see the logic.  As I said in a post previously a .22lr round should be able to kill someone with just a single shot.  Given that I have assigned a 1d4 killing attack to the round this isn't normally possible.  Should I keep the x2?  Or should it be given some other modifier?  For N Stun I have normally just given a +1 STUN per DC to the roll for the Head, Stomach and Groin and a -1 STUN per DC to the Arms, Hands and Feet.

 

If I keep the Modifiers for N STUN and BODY should this damage be Before or After Defenses?

 

I know I am asking a bunch of questions but I would like the opinion of the gallery (well all 2 or 3 people that are reading it anyway) before I make a decision.

 

T

[RDU Neil]

Just my thoughts on hit location...

1. I feel it works 95% of the time as is, so I am loathe to tamper with it too much. That is my starting place.
2. x5 Stun for KA to head tends to feel "right" when the body rolled is low.  The painful creasing shot across the skull, etc. High body rolls, it doesn't really matter most of the time, or feels right as a direct shot into a helmet that may not kill, but totally rings your bell. Where it feels to high, IMO, is the mid-range body rolled vs. a helmet, where I think too much Stun is generated. In this case, though, using the "hard armor is like a barrier" rule... this would likely mean "no body, no stun", meaning the helmet worked like it should. With that "barrier" rule in effect, I'm less inclined to need to change the x5.
3. I often find the x4 to stomach and vitals to be way more of a game changer to combat. These locations get hit a lot more (the PC that died had the nickname "Ballbuster" because the player rolled 13 at least 9 shootouts in a row), and result in more damage, but typical body armor is less protective than of the chest. Fits reality (hard to plate the groin area) but seems to drop characters, even armored there, more than feels right.
4. The x1 Stun multiple for Hands and Feet is just too low. The body is already halved, which seems appropriate in terms of "how much closer to death does this shot bring you" but Stun = Pain, as you indicated and I agree, and there is nothing "less painful" about getting shot in the hand or foot. (Heck... in movies, stabbing or shooting someone in the foot seems to be completely incapacitating in many classic scenes... I'm looking at you, Point Break and True Romance) I think they should both be x2 at least, but leads to my next point.
5. Stun damage to a limb is very different, in a "realistic" aspect, than stun damage to the head or torso. The latter can lead to unconsciousness, "wind knocked out of you" etc., that really does put you down, if just for a little while. Shots to limbs is more about shock and pain than "knocking the person out" and thus, I kind of feel the stun damage of those shots should only be counted toward "Con stunning" (usually reflected as cry of pain, grabbing wounded limb, swearing a lot in place of taking an action.) This would get REALLY complicated REALLY quickly... but something I've considered.
6. Normal Stun multipliers are always applied AFTER defenses.
7. KA Body multipliers are after defenses, and the Stun multiple is based on the ROLLED damage, not the multiplied damage. (This helps with hand/foot shots being more "painful" but body is halved.)

Does this match your thinking on this?  

[Deadman]

1 hour ago, RDU Neil said:

Just my thoughts on hit location...

1. I feel it works 95% of the time as is, so I am loathe to tamper with it too much. That is my starting place.
2. x5 Stun for KA to head tends to feel "right" when the body rolled is low.  The painful creasing shot across the skull, etc. High body rolls, it doesn't really matter most of the time, or feels right as a direct shot into a helmet that may not kill, but totally rings your bell. Where it feels to high, IMO, is the mid-range body rolled vs. a helmet, where I think too much Stun is generated. In this case, though, using the "hard armor is like a barrier" rule... this would likely mean "no body, no stun", meaning the helmet worked like it should. With that "barrier" rule in effect, I'm less inclined to need to change the x5.
3. I often find the x4 to stomach and vitals to be way more of a game changer to combat. These locations get hit a lot more (the PC that died had the nickname "Ballbuster" because the player rolled 13 at least 9 shootouts in a row), and result in more damage, but typical body armor is less protective than of the chest. Fits reality (hard to plate the groin area) but seems to drop characters, even armored there, more than feels right.
4. The x1 Stun multiple for Hands and Feet is just too low. The body is already halved, which seems appropriate in terms of "how much closer to death does this shot bring you" but Stun = Pain, as you indicated and I agree, and there is nothing "less painful" about getting shot in the hand or foot. (Heck... in movies, stabbing or shooting someone in the foot seems to be completely incapacitating in many classic scenes... I'm looking at you, Point Break and True Romance) I think they should both be x2 at least, but leads to my next point.
5. Stun damage to a limb is very different, in a "realistic" aspect, than stun damage to the head or torso. The latter can lead to unconsciousness, "wind knocked out of you" etc., that really does put you down, if just for a little while. Shots to limbs is more about shock and pain than "knocking the person out" and thus, I kind of feel the stun damage of those shots should only be counted toward "Con stunning" (usually reflected as cry of pain, grabbing wounded limb, swearing a lot in place of taking an action.) This would get REALLY complicated REALLY quickly... but something I've considered.
6. Normal Stun multipliers are always applied AFTER defenses.
7. KA Body multipliers are after defenses, and the Stun multiple is based on the ROLLED damage, not the multiplied damage. (This helps with hand/foot shots being more "painful" but body is halved.)

Does this match your thinking on this?  

Thanks for your input Neil, it helps having someone to bounce this stuff off of.

1. Agreed but my percentage would be lower...say 65% of the time it works okay.
2. I am inclined to give a bonus to the Stun Multiplier just to give it some leeway.  A +2 to the Stun Multiplier on the Head would illicit a range of x3-x5 in standard games and x3-x6 in mine so that feels about right to me.  I like your idea of making a helmet the same as Hard Armor for this purpose.
3. In the case of the Stomach and Groin (I don't use Vitals since I feel that is ambiguous) I would be inclined to give it a +1 to the Stun Multiplier similar to the Head above.
4. I agree, though I will say that you don't often see people knocked out by shots to extremities (even in the movies).  I would say to use the Disabling/Impairing rules for extremities especially.  Here I would apply a -1 Stun Multiplier for a range of x1-x2 for standard games and x1-x3 for mine.  That gives it some difference but does skew it toward the lower end (as a 1 or a 2 on the die would result in a 1).
5. Disabling/Impairing would be a way to really address this in my opinion.  In my games you cannot Die instantly from shots to Extremities (though you can bleed out).
6. If you use multiples for them then I would agree.  If I were to use a set modifier I would apply it before defenses.
7. I can see the benefit of that but then I think you would have many more people getting knocked out by hand/feet shots.

I will put together a table of my suggestions and we'll see how it works.  At some point I am going to have to get a group together to playtest this stuff.  Let me know who is interested.

 

Regards,

 

T

[Surrealone]

4 hours ago, Deadman said:

Hit Locations

The RAW Hit Location tables work pretty well in most cases.  In my opinion they just need to be better defined and perhaps the damage could be adjusted.  Here is the current RAW Hit Location Table.

…
 

My personal opinion is that the STUNx, N STUN and BODYx are a bit too severe.

…
 

If I keep the Modifiers for N STUN and BODY should this damage be Before or After Defenses?

 

I concur that the raw tables work well. I also agree that the STUNx, N STUN, and BODYx are too severe.  I tend to lean toward a preference for application of them -AFTER- defenses … as this tends to reduce the impact for those with low defenses -- which in a Heroic or Dark Champs game, is most people.

[Deadman]

Here is what I came up with.  I also decided to base the STUN Multiplier strictly on the 1d3 per the RAW.  This gives a shot that hits the head a range of x3-x5 which seems pretty correct to me  I don't think that this will really mess up things and since I use MapTool to run my Online Games it is pretty easy to put in a Macro.  If you are running Face to Face it may be a bit more difficult but the "realism" may be worth it.  I have also decided that if a character takes all of his BODY in a single attack in the Head or Chest he is Dead.  The GM could wave this for PCs and principal villains but for others it should stick (though many GMs just say that if Mooks take all of their BODY they are dead).

 

Modified Hit Location Table
3d6 Roll	Location	STUNx	N STUN	*BODYx	To Hit	Instant Kill?
3	Neck	+x2	+1	x2	-8 OCV	Yes
4	Face	+x2	+1	x2		Yes
5	Head	+x2	+1	x2		Yes
6	Hands	-x2	-1	x½	-6 OCV	No
7	Forearms	-x1	-1	x½	-5 OCV	No
8	Upper Arms	-x1	-1	x½		No
9	Shoulders	0	0	x1	-5 OCV	No
10	Chest	0	0	x1	-3 OCV	Yes
11	Chest	0	0	x1		Yes
12	Stomach	+x1	+1	x1	-7 OCV	No
13	Groin	+x1	+1	x1	-8 OCV	No
14	Thighs	0	0	x1	-4 OCV	No
15	Lower Legs	-x1	0	x½	-6 OCV	No
16	Knees	-x1	0	x½		No
17	Ankles	-x1	-1	x½	-8 OCV	No
18	Feet	-x2	-1	x½		No
If necessary, roll 1d6 to determine left or right side (hands, arms, shoulders, thighs, legs, feet).  If you roll a 1, 2, or 3, the left side is hit; if you roll a 4, 5, or 6, the right side is hit. *BODY Multipler occurs AFTER Defenses have been applied.

 

Let me know what you think.

 

T

[RDU Neil]

It has never been a "rule" but any time a large Body damage attack has taken someone to the negatives (of Body), we've always just written them off. If someone took all their body in one shot, even to a limb (meaning, after halving, they still took 10 or more Body damage) I'd still rule they were dead, limb completely blown off and shock and blood loss almost instantaneous... buh-bye.

 

The only time I think it would, or has, ever come up in our games, is if a PC is negative body, but fight is over, and medical attention is possible... then we'd look at the type of hits and determine whether he/she was savable, or dead dead. Honestly, I'd leave that up to the player, assuming the PC hadn't taken some hit like you describe (all Body in one shot). In fact, in that last game where a PC died, he was, technically, still alive, though at -4 Body, unconscious by a lot, and bleeding out while the other hurled grenades and fled the scene. I left it up to the player... "Does he live or die?" He chose to have him die, bleeding out on the floor of an office tower from multiple gunshot wounds, glass and debris everywhere, emergency lights only, as the sprinkler system soaked everything, casting the whole battle in a wet, garish, half-light. It was good stuff.

My favorite, but extremely rare, occurrence, is when a character is in negative Body, bleeding out, but is conscious and not Stunned. The classic Boromir scene of "dead on your feet, and you know it, but still fighting"... sure it requires Ego rolls to keep going and such, but it is fun because it is hard to achieve. Usually either a super with very high Stun and Con takes some special attack that manages to do lots of Body without too much Stun. A weird confluence of powers, but can happen.   Or, in a more "realistic" game, a character has taken lots of little Body shots, then one medium level Body damage shot, but it doesn't do enough Stun to KO or make him/her stunned. Again... has to be a rare confluence of damage rolls and defenses, etc., but cinematically, dramatically cool.

[Deadman]

Grace Under Fire

This represents a Character's ability to go through with actions which place his life in danger.  The full write-up is in Dark Champions pg. 193.  One of the abilities encompassed by Presence is courage and that is what this Optional Rule represents.  I would suggest that it be optional for PCs but villains should use it when appropriate.  Here is the table as amended by me.

 

Grace Under Fire Table
PRE Roll	Result
Made by 5+	Character may perform his declared Action and gains a bonus of +2 to all rolls involved (including Attack Rolls)
Made by 2-4	Character may perform his declared Action and gains a bonus of +1 to all rolls involved (including
Made by 0-1	Character may perform his declared Action
Failed by 1-2	Character may perform his declared Action, but he suffers a penalty of -1 to all rolls involved (including Attack Rolls)
Failed by 3-4	Character hesitates and loses a Half Phase. If it’s still possible for him to perform his declared Action, he may do so, but he suffers a penalty of -2 (or more) to all rolls involved (including Attack Rolls).  If he prefers, he may change to some other Action that he can perform in a Half Phase, provided that other Action is defensive or otherwise diminishes the danger or anxiety that caused him to hesitate.
Failed by 5+	Character is paralyzed with fear, hesitation, doubt, or the like.  He loses a full Phase, may take no Actions and is at half DCV.  Alternately, he may panic, taking action that’s detrimental to himself or his side in the fight (e.g. accidentally shoot an ally, block the path of escape, knock something over and start a fire)
PRE Roll Modifier	Circumstance
+1 or more	Outcome of Action is crucial (will help save the city, or the like)
+1 or more	Action will help to save/protect character’s loved ones from danger
+1 to +3	Action agrees with one of character’s Psychological Complications (+1 for Moderate, +2 for Strong, +3 for Total)
-1 to -3	Action contradicts one of character’s Psychological Complications (-1 for Moderate, -2 for Strong, -3 for Total)
-1 or more	Danger to character is extreme

 

Thoughts?

 

T

[RDU Neil]

So... you roll a PRE roll for courage under fire?

I always ruled that it was EGO that your rolled to have the "steely will" to act in the face of danger, or vs. pain/injury, exception hardship, etc.

 

I only use that for the most "realistic" of games, where it is as close to a real world, action drama, rather than fully cinematic action movie... let alone supers.

Now... using PRE actively in a game to cause others to hesitate, stay under cover, etc., absolutely. I would have no problem with PCs or badguys spending an action doing a PRE attack while spraying gunfire, etc. Intent is always important... so the player is saying, "I want these people to keep their heads down and give us a chance to escape" or whatever... then you have them roll the PRE attack with whatever modifiers seem appropriate.

 

For someone to ignore the effects, they roll Ego roll, - x by how much the PRE attack rolled.

 

Been doing that basically since original Danger International came out, when we played "real world" PIs and terrorists, etc.

[Deadman]

13 minutes ago, RDU Neil said:

So... you roll a PRE roll for courage under fire?

I always ruled that it was EGO that your rolled to have the "steely will" to act in the face of danger, or vs. pain/injury, exception hardship, etc.

 

I only use that for the most "realistic" of games, where it is as close to a real world, action drama, rather than fully cinematic action movie... let alone supers.

Now... using PRE actively in a game to cause others to hesitate, stay under cover, etc., absolutely. I would have no problem with PCs or badguys spending an action doing a PRE attack while spraying gunfire, etc. Intent is always important... so the player is saying, "I want these people to keep their heads down and give us a chance to escape" or whatever... then you have them roll the PRE attack with whatever modifiers seem appropriate.

 

For someone to ignore the effects, they roll Ego roll, - x by how much the PRE attack rolled.

 

Been doing that basically since original Danger International came out, when we played "real world" PIs and terrorists, etc.

The write-up does say that you can use EGO as a complimentary roll.  However there is a difference between Willpower and Courage.  If you were hurt and needed to overcome that to act I would say that is Willpower.  Courage, on the other hand, is a function of Presence so that is why the roll is based on it.

 

From Hero System 6Ev1 pg. 45

Presence represents the character’s
forcefulness, charisma, bravery,
confidence, bearing, and leadership
qualities — in short, his impressiveness.

[RDU Neil]

17 hours ago, Deadman said:

The write-up does say that you can use EGO as a complimentary roll.  However there is a difference between Willpower and Courage.  If you were hurt and needed to overcome that to act I would say that is Willpower.  Courage, on the other hand, is a function of Presence so that is why the roll is based on it.

 

From Hero System 6Ev1 pg. 45

Presence represents the character’s
forcefulness, charisma, bravery,
confidence, bearing, and leadership
qualities — in short, his impressiveness.

 

Interesting... I always thought of Presence as forcefulness, charisma, bearing... and PERCEIVED bravery, confidence, etc.   Someone could have great presence, and be an abject coward, they just don't LOOK like a coward. PRE was always how others perceived you... not how you actually were. 

Interesting... I just never thought of it that way before.

[Vanguard]

On 7/17/2018 at 8:47 PM, RDU Neil said:

Autofire Optional Use

 

I don't know if anyone knows but there are Optional Autofire rules in both Dark Champions and the APGs. (I think the ones in the AGPs are just reprints from DC but I included them for completeness).

 

I think the expanded Hit Locations are in there as well. . .

[RDU Neil]

1 hour ago, Vanguard said:

 

I don't know if anyone knows but there are Optional Autofire rules in both Dark Champions and the APGs. (I think the ones in the AGPs are just reprints from DC but I included them for completeness).

 

I think the expanded Hit Locations are in there as well. . .

 

I don't have the APGs, and still only have 5th ED Dark Champions. Is there a 6th Ed version?

 

I'll have to read through them, as I generally like to work with what seems "intuitive" from Hero, but it sounds like the alt-rules are similar to what we've come up with in places.

[Surrealone]

23 hours ago, Deadman said:

Grace Under Fire

This represents a Character's ability to go through with actions which place his life in danger.  The full write-up is in Dark Champions pg. 193.  One of the abilities encompassed by Presence is courage and that is what this Optional Rule represents.  I would suggest that it be optional for PCs but villains should use it when appropriate.  Here is the table as amended by me.

 

Grace Under Fire Table
PRE Roll	Result
Made by 5+	Character may perform his declared Action and gains a bonus of +2 to all rolls involved (including Attack Rolls)
Made by 2-4	Character may perform his declared Action and gains a bonus of +1 to all rolls involved (including
Made by 0-1	Character may perform his declared Action
Failed by 1-2	Character may perform his declared Action, but he suffers a penalty of -1 to all rolls involved (including Attack Rolls)
Failed by 3-4	Character hesitates and loses a Half Phase. If it’s still possible for him to perform his declared Action, he may do so, but he suffers a penalty of -2 (or more) to all rolls involved (including Attack Rolls).  If he prefers, he may change to some other Action that he can perform in a Half Phase, provided that other Action is defensive or otherwise diminishes the danger or anxiety that caused him to hesitate.
Failed by 5+	Character is paralyzed with fear, hesitation, doubt, or the like.  He loses a full Phase, may take no Actions and is at half DCV.  Alternately, he may panic, taking action that’s detrimental to himself or his side in the fight (e.g. accidentally shoot an ally, block the path of escape, knock something over and start a fire)
PRE Roll Modifier	Circumstance
+1 or more	Outcome of Action is crucial (will help save the city, or the like)
+1 or more	Action will help to save/protect character’s loved ones from danger
+1 to +3	Action agrees with one of character’s Psychological Complications (+1 for Moderate, +2 for Strong, +3 for Total)
-1 to -3	Action contradicts one of character’s Psychological Complications (-1 for Moderate, -2 for Strong, -3 for Total)
-1 or more	Danger to character is extreme

 

Thoughts?

 

T

 

Umm, I kind of have a problem with that table because a failed result should be something other than 'Grace Under Fire'.  i.e. That table should only be populated with positive results since all of the negative results currently within it fail to qualify as 'Grace Under Fire'.  It just makes no sense to me to have disgraceful things in a table supposedly about graceful things.  The other option is, of course, to change the name of the table and topic to something a bit more fitting, but without either adjustment, we have a bit of a conundrum.

 

P.S. What surprises me is that a lawyer (Steve Long) authored that … since attorneys tend to avoid using conflicting language and/or words in the things they author.

[Vanguard]

3 hours ago, RDU Neil said:

 

I don't have the APGs, and still only have 5th ED Dark Champions. Is there a 6th Ed version?

 

I'll have to read through them, as I generally like to work with what seems "intuitive" from Hero, but it sounds like the alt-rules are similar to what we've come up with in places.

I don't think there's a 6th Ed. Dark Champions.

 

 

And yes, the only difference that I can think of is the new/optional autofire skills are talents and not Advantages.

[Deadman]

Blowthrough and "Barrier" Defense

The 5e Dark Champions Book defines Blowthrough as follows: “Blowthrough” is a gun user’s term for the ability of a bullet to penetrate some barriers or targets and keep traveling with relatively little loss of energy.

 

While I do think this is a good rule in general since there are some "Barriers" which do not provide much defense versus bullets (or other Killing Attacks).  The 6e rules, as far as I can tell, do not address this.  Instead they introduce the idea of some items not having Resistant Defenses.  Substances like Glass provide no Resistant Defense and are therefore very easy for Killing Attacks to penetrate.  Some semblance of reality is buried in between the two somewhere.  Without completely overhauling the "Breaking Things" system in the game it would be somewhat difficult to replicate.  So while I don't want to overhaul it, the "Breaking Things" table could do with some additions.  In my opinion this would do away with the need for the Blowthrough ruling and allow us to use traditional rules...Well sort of.

 

I think we need to look at how the protection is calculated with a Barrier .  Way back in 3rd Edition if you were hitting someone on the other side of a "Force Wall" you had to take down the barrier first.  This involved subtracting the dice by the highest rolls first.  In my opinion this unfairly gives the character more defense than he should get since you subtract out all of the sixes rolled, then all the fives and so on (when using a regular attack).  Instead I would suggest using Standard Effect for what is removed.  See my examples below on how this would all play out.

 

This table more throroughly breaks down many modern building materials.

 

Breaking Things Clarifications (Dark Champions)
Material or Object	PD	ED	BODY	Notes
Doors
Interior (Hollow Core)	1+(2)	2	2	Two wood or laminate panels with cardboard spacers.
Interior (Solid Core)	2	2	3	Two wood or laminate panels with chipboard filling.
Interior (Solid Wood)	3	3	3	Solid Pine (or other light wood) door
Exterior (Steel Panel)	4	4	3	Thin Steel panels with foam/wood insulation
Exterior (Fiberglass)	3	4	3	Fiberglass panels with foam/wood insulation
Glass
Single Pane Window	(1)	1	1	Standard Window (non-impact rated)
Double Pane Window	(2)	2	1	Newer Insulated Windows (non-impact rated)
Thick Single Pane	1+(1)	2	1	Such as Standard Sliding Glass Door
Tempered Glass	1+(2)	2	1	Safety glass (i.e. Automobile windows, newer Sliding Glass doors)
Thin Laminated Glass	2+(2)	3	2	Impact resistant such as newer Store Windows
Bulletproof Glass	6-9	6-9	3	Depends on UL 752 Level rating
Aluminum oxynitride	10	10	4	UL 752 Level 10
Walls
Indoor (Plaster)	3	3	3	Standard lathe and plaster wall (Frame: Activation 8-)
Indoor (Drywall)	1+(2)	3	2	Standard drywall construction (Frame: Activation 8-)
Indoor (Frame)	5	4	4	2x4 or Aluminum construction
Outdoor (Stucco)	4	6	3	Plywood/Stucco construction
Outdoor (Alum. Siding)	4	7	4	Plywood with Aluminum Siding
Outdoor (Vinyl Siding)	4	6	4	Plywood with Vinyl Siding
Outdoor (Wood)	5	4	4	Plywood and or all wood construction
Outdoor (Concrete)	6	10	5	Standard commercial construction
Items in Parenthesis () are NonResistant

 

Example 1: Bash is chasing Lt. Burroughs through a house with a baseball bat.  Lt. Burroughs runs through a bedroom door and slams it shut.  Bash decides to smash through the door attacking Lt. Burroughs on the other side.  The GM decides that because he can't see him Bash attacks at 1/2 OCV.  Lt. Burroughs has a 5 DCV and Bash has a (4+2)/2=3 OCV.  Bash rolls a 7 on 3d6 and has successfully hits Lt. Burroughs in the left shoulder.  Bash rolls his damage of 7d6 (20 STR + 3d6) and gets (6,6,5,3,3,2,1)  26 STUN and 8 BODY.  The door takes a total of 5 BODY to smash through and with Standard Effect removes 15 STUN from the Normal Damage attack.  Lt. Burroughs applies 3 BODY and 11 STUN to his personal defense (4 PD) resulting in 0 BODY and 7 STUN, a glancing blow...whew!  That could have been much worse...

 

Example 2: Barracuda is armed with a .45 Mac10  with ball ammunition (remember +1 STUN Multiple) and is carefully proceeding through a house that he saw two of Buckshot's men run into.  As he makes his way through he hears the slide rack on a pistol on the other side of the wall.  He opens up on the sound with a 5 round burst.  He gets 1/2 his OCV (6+2)/2=4 vs. the thug on the other side of the wall who is DCV 3.  Barracuda's player rolls a 10 and hits the thug three times (we are using the optional Autofire rule which dictates that for every 1 point an Autofire attack hits by another round finds its mark).  Barracuda's player rolls three 1d6+1 rolls against the standard hit location resulting in hits in the Right Shoulder 6 BODY x3 Multiple, Chest 3 BODY x2 Multiple, and Groin 4 BODY x3 Multiple.  The wall is standard Drywall and has 1 resistant PD and 2 BODY.  The thug has no resistant defense and ends up taking 3 BODY 9 STUN from the first bullet, nothing from the second and 1 BODY 3 STUN from the third resulting in 4 BODY and 12 STUN.  He's hurt but not out of it and returns fire through the wall with his Glock 17...

 

Example 3: Crosshair has been given an assassination mission and has taken up a position across from an abandoned house where Freddy Howarth, his target, is hiding out.  He is using a .30-06 rifle with Ball Ammunition (2d6+d2) a long arm laser sight and a x9 Scope affording him +2 OCV and +14 Range Mod.  When his target comes into view through the window he Braces (+2 RMod) and Sets (+1 OCV) and squeezes off a shot at Freddy's head.  Freddy is unaware of the attack and is 1/2 DCV 4/2=2 and Hit Location modifiers are halved (Head=-8/2=-4).  Crosshair is 6 OCV + 2 CSLs + 1 (Set Maneuver)=9 OCV.  He needs a 14- to hit his target (the Range levels more than offset the Range Modifier) and rolls an 11.  Freddy is on the other side of a double paned window.  Crosshair rolls 9 BODY on the attack and x5 STUN Multiplier 2(roll)+2(head)+1(caliber).  The window has no resistant defense and 1 BODY resulting in 9-1(Glass BODY)x2(head shot)=16 BODY and 16x5=80 STUN).  Poor Freddy...

 

Thoughts?  Input?

[Surrealone]

2 hours ago, Deadman said:

Substances like Glass provide no Resistant Defense and are therefore very easy for Killing Attacks to penetrate.  Some semblance of reality is buried in between the two somewhere.  Without completely overhauling the "Breaking Things" system in the game it would be somewhat difficult to replicate.  So while I don't want to overhaul it, the "Breaking Things" table could do with some additions.  In my opinion this would do away with the need for the Blowthrough ruling and allow us to use traditional rules...Well sort of.

 

 

Thoughts?  Input?

 

Learning to shoot through obstacles is as much an art as a skill.  For instance, shooting through a car windshield DOES actually offer the occupant some protection UNLESS the shooter is skilled at doing so.  Why?  Because a car windshield is angled and, as a result, the bullet is deflected downward through the windshield if fired at the car from a head-on location.  Likewise, firing from WITHIN the car through its windshield will deflect the bullet upward as it penetrates the glass.  How much deflection will depend on the angle of the windshield, of course … but a skilled shooter who has practiced this kind of shooting stands a higher probability of hitting his/her target through a windshield than the average gangster unloading his/her Glock sideways at the occupant of a car (or at someone from within the car and behind the windshield).

 

In a similar situation, most bullets begin to tumble as they deform due to impact with drywall, glass, a car door, you name it.

 

I mention these things because, while glass provides no Resistant Defense, it and other substances that are readily penetrated (by a bullet that deforms) absolutely increase the probability of a miss (when the fired round might otherwise be a hit) … and I believe this dose of reality should probably be accounted for when shooting through things.  Appropriate skill in shooting through misc materials things might make sense to offset any applied negatives to hit something beyond an obstacle.

[RDU Neil]

A ranged attack penetrating a barrier and carrying on to hit something on the other side, ok... that makes sense... but a hand attack? I try to swing a baseball bat through a door to hit you on the other side? Really? I mean, if you are leaning right up against the wall, sure, but if you are even a couple inches away, the door will stop the bat from going through it. Maybe a penetrating  attack, sticking a spear or sword through it... with length maybe... but I just don't see how even an axe is going to get through a barrier and then, somehow, while still in your hand, continue on through and hit someone in the room on the other side? 
 

Is this really the rules?  Weird. I don't think we've ever played it this way. Like, even taking a sledgehammer to drywall, it will put a hole right through it, but the sledgehammer stops "in" the wall.  Right?

 

Anyway... I like the table of PD and Body... very helpful. I also agree that any kind of barrier gives minuses to hitting something on the other side... at least double range penalties sees correct for the "tumbling" factor. 

 

Also... is the idea that putting the gun "up against" the window or door so the substance deflects the trajectory less... is that really a thing? Seems to logically make sense, but I wonder.

[Surrealone]

1 hour ago, RDU Neil said:

Also... is the idea that putting the gun "up against" the window or door so the substance deflects the trajectory less... is that really a thing? Seems to logically make sense, but I wonder.

Bad idea for a recoil-operated semi-automatic firearm.  Why? Because pushing, say, a Glock against a hard surface can (depending on the surface -- say, an uneven one, for example) cause the slide to be pushed back far enough to force the pistol out of battery … resulting in an action that is no longer locked closed and ready to fire.

 

Now If it were a revolver that isn't prone to such a problem -- well, I'm just as curious on the subject as you are!

[Deadman]

2 hours ago, Surrealone said:

 

Learning to shoot through obstacles is as much an art as a skill.  For instance, shooting through a car windshield DOES actually offer the occupant some protection UNLESS the shooter is skilled at doing so.  Why?  Because a car windshield is angled and, as a result, the bullet is deflected downward through the windshield if fired at the car from a head-on location.  Likewise, firing from WITHIN the car through its windshield will deflect the bullet upward as it penetrates the glass.  How much deflection will depend on the angle of the windshield, of course … but a skilled shooter who has practiced this kind of shooting stands a higher probability of hitting his/her target through a windshield than the average gangster unloading his/her Glock sideways at the occupant of a car (or at someone from within the car and behind the windshield).

 

In a similar situation, most bullets begin to tumble as they deform due to impact with drywall, glass, a car door, you name it.

 

I mention these things because, while glass provides no Resistant Defense, it and other substances that are readily penetrated (by a bullet that deforms) absolutely increase the probability of a miss (when the fired round might otherwise be a hit) … and I believe this dose of reality should probably be accounted for when shooting through things.  Appropriate skill in shooting through misc materials things might make sense to offset any applied negatives to hit something beyond an obstacle.

 

What you say is very accurate and I would agree that some penalty would definitely be in order.  In my estimation it would be related to how obtuse the angle.  For example a squared shot (straight 90 degree angle) would receive fewer penalties than say a shot from 150 degrees.  Perhaps a somewhat subjective -1 to -3 penalty.  It may be better stated to say that a -1 per 45 degree differential.  This means that our shooter in my example who may have been shooting from a 15 degree horizontal differential and an 18 degree vertical differential would add to 33 degrees and therefore correspond to a -1 OCV penalty.  Again, this is somewhat arbitrary and up to the GM.  That said, I find it very realistic and it would gladly implement it.

 

1 hour ago, RDU Neil said:

A ranged attack penetrating a barrier and carrying on to hit something on the other side, ok... that makes sense... but a hand attack? I try to swing a baseball bat through a door to hit you on the other side? Really? I mean, if you are leaning right up against the wall, sure, but if you are even a couple inches away, the door will stop the bat from going through it. Maybe a penetrating  attack, sticking a spear or sword through it... with length maybe... but I just don't see how even an axe is going to get through a barrier and then, somehow, while still in your hand, continue on through and hit someone in the room on the other side? 
 

Is this really the rules?  Weird. I don't think we've ever played it this way. Like, even taking a sledgehammer to drywall, it will put a hole right through it, but the sledgehammer stops "in" the wall.  Right?

 

Anyway... I like the table of PD and Body... very helpful. I also agree that any kind of barrier gives minuses to hitting something on the other side... at least double range penalties sees correct for the "tumbling" factor. 

 

Also... is the idea that putting the gun "up against" the window or door so the substance deflects the trajectory less... is that really a thing? Seems to logically make sense, but I wonder.

 

Well Neil, I don't know you personally but I would speculate that you wouldn't have a 20 STR   Having done demolition on homes and such I can tell you that if I am using a 16 pound sledge on drywall, you do not want to be on the other side of it.  Keep in mind that the range of a HTH attack is limited anyway so the target would have to be in close proximity to the barrier.

 

I am not suggesting that Lt. Burroughs would have traveled very far beyond the door, even a meter would probably be out of range.  This was meant more for someone right on the other side of the barrier...at least for HTH weapons.

 

As with all of my posts, they are just suggestions.  They are oddball ideas that I come up with that I do want to socialize to see how others feel.  If I ever have the chance I will incorporate some or all of them in a game to see how they work.  If I do I will share the outcome.

[Surrealone]

12 hours ago, Deadman said:

Having done demolition on homes and such I can tell you that if I am using a 16 pound sledge on drywall, you do not want to be on the other side of it.  Keep in mind that the range of a HTH attack is limited anyway so the target would have to be in close proximity to the barrier.

I can attest to this, as well. My sledge is only 8lbs … and you STILL don't want to be on the other side of drywall or wood lathe that I'm busting down.