Jump to content
iamlibertarian

Still Confused By UBO

Recommended Posts

10 minutes ago, JmOz said:

Players have to be monitored for how often they give their foci to friends...if the GM feels it is excessive then he should make them pay for UBO.

 

In my new game the players have a patron, who is a retired Batman like hero.  One character has a VPP and can use it to hit up his old armory.  The other three do not so can't.  Two of the others do have a UT Belt and can add slots representing adding gear from the old cave, but can't change it out.

 

If the VPP hero (Bandit) wants to, she could give up some of her VPP to the other players occasionally, or buy the gadget with UBO to represent sharing constantly (Carries extra gas masks for instance).  this has already come up once (One team member does not have a radio)


See, I don't mind paying the UBO price. I agree that the more useful something is, the higher the price should be. I just don't necessarily like the Mechanics of UBO for this particular purpose.

Let's say the character can make 6 Grenades (Charges) with one Use/Slot of the VPP. If the character has only paid for UBO, the character can only transfer those grenades to one character. One character now has 6 grenades worth of power. Can't hand 3 to two different characters, even though that is the same amount of power in a battle.

If the character pays for Useable Simultaneously x4 and makes the same 6 grenades, he can still only hand out the grenades to 4 characters, even if the team has 6 characters. One grenade per member or 6 grenades for one character, same power level. Useful for one well placed character to use all six, but less useful if the grenades need to be used in multiple locations. Balances out.

If Useable Nearby is paid for, and the 6 Grenades are created at the base before the mission, can't hand them out later during the mission to anyone who wasn't present During the creation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay, now that I have a semi concrete example for you

 

6 Grenades is 2d6 RKA, +1/2 AE.   OIF, (-1/2), 6 Charges (-3/4) 45 active points 20 real points

 20 Real points becomes the base Active points that you apply any limitations/advantages to for being able to grant the power so UBO

25 Real points.  As you are creating six grenades (the charges), hand them out as you wish (part of the Foci lim at this point)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, eepjr24 said:

It would help some if you would tell us if you are the player or the GM in this case?

 

- E


I will be the player (when I can find a game). Character creation just happens to be (almost) as much fun as the actual play. But:

1) I don't like going to the trouble of creating complex and interesting characters if they are going to be tossed the minute I walk in the door, and, 

2) I Want to GM again (haven't played or GMd Hero System since 4th Ed), and while I love the complexity and 'can do anything-ness' of the Hero System, I have to really, deeply understand it. So, here I am asking questions for both reasons. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, JmOz said:

 

1) Exactly, but as a VPP based on SHIELD armory, grenades is a no brainer.  

 

2) As for your concept, as I understand it.  I would use UBO with the potions being an F/X, as it seems your goal is to give powers out, not to have them yourself and occasionally loan them out 

 

 

 

1) Well, true, 'grenade' doesn't really fit this, but some specialty item was the thought. For example Coulson's cool car wouldn't likely be in Nick's VPP, but some special need might call for it and SHIELD might convince him to loan it, lol.

2) True. General Concept = Outfitter for varied circumstances (though occasionally the character gets to be his own UBO recipient. But see my other post in this thread about not liking the UBO mechanics for this specific purpose. If the character makes 6 grenades/potions before leaving base, it would be nice during the mission to be able to choose at that moment (in the middle of the mission) to hand the explosive grenade to the Flyer to drop in the center of the bad guys, and separately choose to hand the healing potion to the speedster to get to a teammate quickly, while using the AE invisibility dust on the rest of the group himself, and have this be the regular everyday concept of the character to act in this manner, and UOO doesn't support that well (see the other post).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

2 minutes ago, iamlibertarian said:

 

1) Well, true, 'grenade' doesn't really fit this, but some specialty item was the thought. For example Coulson's cool car wouldn't likely be in Nick's VPP, but some special need might call for it and SHIELD might convince him to loan it, lol.

2) True. General Concept = Outfitter for varied circumstances (though occasionally the character gets to be his own UBO recipient. But see my other post in this thread about not liking the UBO mechanics for this specific purpose. If the character makes 6 grenades/potions before leaving base, it would be nice during the mission to be able to choose at that moment (in the middle of the mission) to hand the explosive grenade to the Flyer to drop in the center of the bad guys, and separately choose to hand the healing potion to the speedster to get to a teammate quickly, while using the AE invisibility dust on the rest of the group himself, and have this be the regular everyday concept of the character to act in this manner, and UOO doesn't support that well (see the other post).

 

That is almost the definition of a VPP with a large pool, moderate Control, and heavy use of the UBO advantage

 

For the record, Flying cars are actually a staple of SHIELD, and Fury uses them ALL the time

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, JmOz said:

Okay, now that I have a semi concrete example for you

 

6 Grenades is 2d6 RKA, +1/2 AE.   OIF, (-1/2), 6 Charges (-3/4) 45 active points 20 real points

 20 Real points becomes the base Active points that you apply any limitations/advantages to for being able to grant the power so UBO

25 Real points.  As you are creating six grenades (the charges), hand them out as you wish (part of the Foci lim at this point)


But what if the character wants to hang onto them after creation, and dole them out as needed?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Part of  the Focus at that point. At least that is how I would rule it, also as a VPP entry could easily make fewer charges and more UBO (but seems more complicated to me...)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, JmOz said:

However the grenades become duds if you swap your points in the VPP.  You can get around that by adding Uncontrolled advantage as well (making it 30 real points)


Aha! Getting somewhere! Again, I don't mind paying more for more usefulness, just needing the mechanics which work for the concept. 

But what if the creating character wants to hang onto one of the grenades for himself... Uncontrolled? Or would that just have to be a case of the GM getting the concept and allowing them to be uncontrolled by the creator (thereby paying an appropriate higher cost for the higher usefulness), but allowing the individual recipients (including the creator himself) being allowed to control the usage?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In my game I would say sure, with the UBO/Uncontrolled you are giving the power to who  you wish...I would have some concerns and monitor it, but we are talking about a powerful ability here and I would do the same with any thing I consider powerful...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, JmOz said:

Definitely on potions. 

 

Also remember special effects are king

 

The Shield Agent probably has his own VPP, representing items from SHIELD.  he is not making the gadget, just has access to  them.  

 

The Universal Foci rules are for the rare instance when Batman gives the flash a smoke grenade as part of a tactic, not so he can outfit Robin with them (Robin has his own UT Belt with the F/X of  getting them from Batman)

I’ve asked the question and for myself came up with a quasi-personal focus (I believe LL helped me). It was for certain martial art weapons where I couldn’t see the average joe getting the benefit from Universal. For example +2 w/Disarm bonus. However some trained with that weapon should be able to get that bonus. So in my mind, it’s considered skilled, in game it’s person but a properly skilled person acts like Universal.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Ninja-Bear said:

I’ve asked the question and for myself came up with a quasi-personal focus (I believe LL helped me). It was for certain martial art weapons where I couldn’t see the average joe getting the benefit from Universal. For example +2 w/Disarm bonus. However some trained with that weapon should be able to get that bonus. So in my mind, it’s considered skilled, in game it’s person but a properly skilled person acts like Universal.

Interesting. I just always built these as regular Universal foci and made a (-0) limitation that it required appropriate skills to get whichever benefit. Like chain weapons negating shield bonus, but only if you know how to use chain weapons. Otherwise, it's just a +HA.

 

- E

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So: UBO...

Not Simultaneously...Just UBO...

The focused power with charges and triggered and all that rot. The character can make a power (potion or grenade) with, say, 6 charges, hang onto them at the time of creating, and hand them out as needed? This is reasonable in the average campaign? If this is what is being said, it would solve my dilemma.
Thanks!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, iamlibertarian said:


Gadgeteer in the field named Grenadier, that's his specialty, pulls out his grenade making kit, makes 12 grenades in the field between battles (only 2 per Agent), specializes to what he has learned is effective against the current crop of HYDRA agents they are fighting. Battle #2 takes place, but some HYDRA agents escape. Grenadier pulls out his kit again and makes another 12 (2 each again)  just before battle #3. Maybe technically within the rules, but is that something a GM is going to allow?
 

 

I would say not, but it's important to specify WHY not.

 

It's NOT to do with whether or not the Power was built with Usable by Others. At all.

 

It is also NOT to do with whether or not the Power has Focus. So don't focus on that Limitation either.

 

It DOES have to do with the fact that these grenades are rather obviously (or should be) using the Limitation "Charges."

 

Let me threw another scenario at you.

 

Let's say our gadgeteer goes out with a Blaster Pistol with 12 shots. After expending those 12 shots, he disassembles it and builds a Laser Pistol with 12 shots. After expending those, he disassembles it makes an Electromagnetic Disruptive Pulse Pistol with 12 shots...

 

does something seem wrong with the above picture?

 

The gadgeteer is basically making the Charges Limitation meaningless.  And the same applies if you are doing the same thing with grenades.

 

So certainly some Game Operations Directors (probably not all) would say that if you build something in your Variable Power Pool with Charges, those points are expended and don't come back to be used until the Charges would have recovered. So you might consider taking the "Recoverable" option on Charges, even though it normally makes no sense to be able to recover a grenade after it blows up. Because if you are carrying around a "grenade making kit" and can whip up new grenades between combat encounters, then "Recoverable Charges" is basically what you got.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary, Usable as Tagline

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Lucius said:

So certainly some Game Operations Directors (probably not all) would say that if you build something in your Variable Power Pool with Charges, those points are expended and don't come back to be used until the Charges would have recovered. So you might consider taking the "Recoverable" option on Charges, even though it normally makes no sense to be able to recover a grenade after it blows up. Because if you are carrying around a "grenade making kit" and can whip up new grenades between combat encounters, then "Recoverable Charges" is basically what you got.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary, Usable as Tagline

 

Very good point! Makes much sense.

But then... if the kit (VPP) contains *both* Flashbangs 6 charges, *and* Smoke Grenades 6 charges, it is reasonable to hand both of them out, considering all the other posts/opinions above?

Or, Grenadier has a total of 12 charges (not recoverable), creates 6 before heading out for the mission, and can make 6 more in the field later?

Thanks as always for your wise advice Lucius. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, bubba smith said:

it may help yo know what UDO is

I admit I have no idea what UDO is.

 

7 hours ago, iamlibertarian said:



But then... if the kit (VPP) contains *both* Flashbangs 6 charges, *and* Smoke Grenades 6 charges, it is reasonable to hand both of them out, considering all the other posts/opinions above?

Or, Grenadier has a total of 12 charges (not recoverable), creates 6 before heading out for the mission, and can make 6 more in the field later?

Thanks as always for your wise advice Lucius. :)

 

Ultimately, what's reasonable at a given table is to be decided at the table. I'm not even going to say I personally would take an inflexible "points in a Power with Charges that have been expended cannot be reallocated until the Charges would recover" policy. But I will say that items in a Variable Power Pool with Charges is one of those things many experienced people would agree bears close watching.

 

But to get at what I think you're asking about here: Unallocated points in a Variable Power Pool are exactly that  - Unallocated. Unless "Charges" is a LImitation on the Control Cost of the Pool itself, Grenadier does not in fact "have a total of 12 charges" unless and until creating a Power or Powers that have those Charges. So he might start out with 3 Smoke and 3 Flashbang, find out the opposition is in fact Vulnerable to Flash attacks, and instead of creating another 6 Flashbang, Grenadier might choose to create `16 Mini-Flashbangs each with fewer Active Points (but still effective thanks to the Vulnerability.) Or if they turn out to be Susceptible to Smoke, he might put those points into 1 huge Smokebomb to smoke them out of their lair entirely.

 

And personally, for a Focus, I don't think Usable by Other is necessary. Being able to give it to someone else is just part of it being a Focus. Full disclosure: I'm biased towards fantasy, and may not be as sensitive to balance issues that come up in superhero play.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary hazards a few guesses: Usable Defensive Option? Unmatched Disbursement Operations? Unlikely Dimensional Opening?

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/25/2018 at 11:00 AM, JmOz said:

However the grenades become duds if you swap your points in the VPP.  You can get around that by adding Uncontrolled advantage as well (making it 30 real points)

 

Be VERY careful putting uncontrolled on stuff in a power pool.  The VPP can "only have X points active at any time" and uncontrolled should not be allowed here.  Else they can, really, just make a bunch of stuff then switch and make a bunch more, etc.  If they have given out 25 real points of grenades, those 25 real points should not be available until the grenades are used, or are no longer available to anyone else - not just "become duds."  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, I am thinking that (again, I don't even have a group to play in yet, but trying to make it presentable when I find said group), because its a focus, and a universal one at that, no UBO is needed, but the character simply cannot get those VPP points back until the items (potions, grenades, etc.) either are used up, returned, destroyed, etc.

So, say, if they are Charges (lets use grenades). Sure, more could be made the next day (if charges per day is how the power is laid out) up to the maximum number of charges available (so if it is 6 charges per day, 6 made today, three used up, tomorrow 3 more can be made), but until all charges are 'gone' the character cannot even swap the points out of the VPP?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No, the more I read about it, the more I find it says that the character does not need UBO, and the charges (grenades, potions, other foci) don't just become duds, don't go poof, or anything like that. They don't have to be 'recovered' before those points can be allocated again. They just become unusable if the character switches said power out of the VPP until the power is put back into the VPP.

6E1 pg 410: "The Charges Limitation is a special case. If the GM allows it, a character may take Charges for a VPP power. However, if he switches to another power, he must keep track of the first power’s Charges. When he switches back to the first power, he does not get a new, full supply of Charges — he must pick up where he left off before."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, iamlibertarian said:

No, the more I read about it, the more I find it says that the character does not need UBO, and the charges (grenades, potions, other foci) don't just become duds, don't go poof, or anything like that. They don't have to be 'recovered' before those points can be allocated again. They just become unusable if the character switches said power out of the VPP until the power is put back into the VPP.

6E1 pg 410: "The Charges Limitation is a special case. If the GM allows it, a character may take Charges for a VPP power. However, if he switches to another power, he must keep track of the first power’s Charges. When he switches back to the first power, he does not get a new, full supply of Charges — he must pick up where he left off before."

 

Things still have to make sense somehow to the people "in universe."

 

"Hey, why didn't that grenade the gadgeteer gave me go off?"

 

Rules based answer: Because the gadgeteer shifted those points into a force field projector.

 

What the gadgeteer "in game" says to the character: ???????????? (I don't know what he can say, but he should be able to say SOMETHING to explain it even if it's technobabble.)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Expending a Charge of Palindromedary to create a tagline

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can I hop on this? Would you guys consider an invisibility device to function the same way? I wanna make a device on my gadgeteer to turn another player invisible for a short amount of time.  Is that something I'd need UBO on, or can I choose who to hit with it simply because its a focus like the grenades for example? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd argue that an invisibility ray also needs UBO, because it depends on whether the individual being turned invisible is willing / able to activate said Invisibility him/herself.  For instance, if you want to, say, turn an unconscious teammate invisible so he doesn't get targeted by the enemy, you need UBO (more specifically, Usable As Attack; he can't turn on a power himself since he's been KO'd).

 

I typically require the gadgeteer PC in my game to have UBO on gadgets she's building and handing out to teammates, since she does it so often (e.g. Life Support Belts).  My rule of thumb (YMMV of course) is that you can pick up a focus / gadget to use once or twice, but if you're going to use it repeatedly, you either have to pay points for it or it needs to be bought UBO. 

 

As to justifying things not working when she switches out the points in her VPP, since Maker generates her own EM field, it's assumed that she's remotely powering those handed-out gadgets, so they stop working when she starts powering new gadgets.  The exception is if she buys Time Limit or Continuing Charges on the gadget.  Those are considered independent of her VPP once they're handed out.  (That is the case with the Life Support Belts, BTW.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...