Still Confused By UBO

[iamlibertarian]

8 hours ago, Lucius said:

Rules based answer: Because the gadgeteer shifted those points into a force field projector.

 

What the gadgeteer "in game" says to the character: ???????????? (I don't know what he can say, but he should be able to say SOMETHING to explain it even if it's technobabble.)

 

That's a good point, but since it is better to require the player to come up with something to say than to change the rules...

He could answer, "Quantum mechanics," lol.  And if a professor of quantum mechanics is in the room and questions that, "Shhh, it is really magic and I am hiding it with pseudo science." Or, "It is truly my magnificent and shining personal soul with provides the core power of any gadget I make for you. Each time you sonofabitches begs me for one of my awesome creations, you are sucking part of the beauty known as my soul. So be careful with the grenade!"

And so on. Yeah, the character should come up with something. But in a super powered, mystical universe, that shouldn't be tooooo hard, lol.

[iamlibertarian]

4 hours ago, BoloOfEarth said:

As to justifying things not working when she switches out the points in her VPP, since Maker generates her own EM field, it's assumed that she's remotely powering those handed-out gadgets, so they stop working when she starts powering new gadgets.  The exception is if she buys Time Limit or Continuing Charges on the gadget.  Those are considered independent of her VPP once they're handed out.  (That is the case with the Life Support Belts, BTW.)

Makes sense. Heading back to start re-re-tooling the the spells/powers I just re-tooled last night to again re-include UBO, since the character that this thread started about is a 'support character'  who will be handing things out (in his case a Mage handing out potions / magic items) frequently, lol.

It can be argued that (since there are multiple ways to pay for something in this system) that UBO is one way to pay for the increased utility, but paying for continuing charges and/or Time Limit also is valid and has now been paid for.

However, if the Foci with Time Limit or Continuing Charges are considered independent of the VPP once handed out, how does the character get those points back to switch which powers are available in the VPP? Can the character make those Independent 8 grenades with those qualities, then switch the VPP away from the grenadesmand make 8 guns, hand them out, switch to and make 8 invisibility belts, then hand them out as well, and so on?

[dsatow]

1. If a VPP has a power with the Focus limitation and is given to another character and that character does not give the focus back, the points stay assigned.  Steve Long has said in the past that if the gadgeteer wants to reuse those points, they have to go get the focus back.
2. If a VPP has a power with the charges limitation, once the charge is used, those points do not come back until the next day.  Steve Long has stated that for partially used powers, the GM can prorate the points back.

Of course, the GM is the final arbiter and can change the ruling as they deem fit, but the rules are in place to prevent using VPP abuse (though VPP is already really abusable).

[BoloOfEarth]

3 hours ago, iamlibertarian said:

However, if the Foci with Time Limit or Continuing Charges are considered independent of the VPP once handed out, how does the character get those points back to switch which powers are available in the VPP? Can the character make those Independent 8 grenades with those qualities, then switch the VPP away from the grenades and make 8 guns, hand them out, switch to and make 8 invisibility belts, then hand them out as well, and so on?

 

Sorry, I wasn't very clear.  I was talking about not just handed out, but activated as well.  Regarding Time Limit, per 6E1:347:

If the caster is Stunned or Knocked Out, or loses Line Of Sight on the target, the power continues to function as intended.

Similarly, if a Time Limit power is bought as a Multipower or VPP slot and the character switches the Framework to a different slot, the Time Limit power doesn’t turn off; it continues to function until the defined duration ends.

 

Regarding Continuing Charges, per 6E1:370:

If a power with Continuing Charges is bought through a Multipower or VPP, and the character switches the Framework to another slot after using a Continuing Charge, the Continuing Charge does not immediately turn off. It continues to affect the target or area until its duration expires.

 

Example:  if Maker creates an Invisibility Belt for Honey Badger (Invisibility to Sight Group, UBO, IIF, Time Limit of 5 minutes), and he turns it on, it doesn't matter if she then switches her Gadget VPP to something else.  Honey Badger remains invisible to sight until the 5 minutes runs out.  Same basic idea if the belt is 1 Continuing Charge of 5 Minutes duration.  The presumed technobabble explanation is that Maker stores enough of her energy in the belt's power cell to operate it for 5 minutes, independent of her.  I'd most likely allow her to do that with a Fuel Charge, so he can turn it on and off at will until the total duration is complete.  One could reasonably argue that the same can be done even if the gadget hasn't been activated yet, though the RAW seem to disallow that.

 

So could Maker create 8 Invisibility Belts (as above but UBO simultaneously by 8 people, or 8 continuing charges) for her teammates, followed by 8 force field belts (Resistant Protection UBO, etc.), followed by 8 flight belts (Flight UBO, etc.)?  Sure, I suppose she could.  I'd probably make the player aware that as GM, I'm a proponent of "what's good for the goose is good for the gander."  So she should be prepared for the villains to do similarly.  (The flip side is that if I allow the bad guys to abuse the system, I can't really complain if the players want to do similar things.)  In general, it keeps everybody - myself included - relatively honest.

[dsatow]

2 hours ago, BoloOfEarth said:

Example:  if Maker creates an Invisibility Belt for Honey Badger (Invisibility to Sight Group, UBO, IIF, Time Limit of 5 minutes), and he turns it on, it doesn't matter if she then switches her Gadget VPP to something else.  Honey Badger remains invisible to sight until the 5 minutes runs out.  Same basic idea if the belt is 1 Continuing Charge of 5 Minutes duration.  The presumed technobabble explanation is that Maker stores enough of her energy in the belt's power cell to operate it for 5 minutes, independent of her.  I'd most likely allow her to do that with a Fuel Charge, so he can turn it on and off at will until the total duration is complete.  One could reasonably argue that the same can be done even if the gadget hasn't been activated yet, though the RAW seem to disallow that.

 

So could Maker create 8 Invisibility Belts (as above but UBO simultaneously by 8 people, or 8 continuing charges) for her teammates, followed by 8 force field belts (Resistant Protection UBO, etc.), followed by 8 flight belts (Flight UBO, etc.)?  Sure, I suppose she could.  I'd probably make the player aware that as GM, I'm a proponent of "what's good for the goose is good for the gander."  So she should be prepared for the villains to do similarly.  (The flip side is that if I allow the bad guys to abuse the system, I can't really complain if the players want to do similar things.)  In general, it keeps everybody - myself included - relatively honest.

 

Nope.  Lets look at some of the examples you stated and why as I understand it will not work or will work as the case may be.

 

1. If Maker creates an Invisibility Belt for Honey Badger (Invisibility to Sight Group, UBO, IIF, Time Limit of 5 minutes), and he turns it on, it doesn't matter if she then switches her Gadget VPP to something else.  Honey Badger remains invisible to sight until the 5 minutes runs out.  - the answer is Yes, assuming she doesn't turn it off.
2. Same basic idea if the belt is 1 Continuing Charge of 5 Minutes duration. - the answer is no.  The difference here is the charge limitation.  Once the charge is used, those points are expended and can't be used for the rest of the gaming day in the VPP.  The invisibility continues to work though, assuming she doesn't turn it off.
3. I'd most likely allow her to do that with a Fuel Charge, so he can turn it on and off at will until the total duration is complete.  One could reasonably argue that the same can be done even if the gadget hasn't been activated yet, though the RAW seem to disallow that. - So long as the power exists in the power pool, the answer is yes.  But if the power disappears, she would not be able to reactivate it because the power wouldn't exist any more.
4. So could Maker create 8 Invisibility Belts (as above but UBO simultaneously by 8 people, or 8 continuing charges) for her teammates, followed by 8 force field belts (Resistant Protection UBO, etc.), followed by 8 flight belts (Flight UBO, etc.)? - Only if everything could fit in the VPP all at once and once the charges are used, those points are no longer accessible to the VPP for that day.

If a power is running independently of the device, if I have interpreted Steve correctly*, it continues to run.  But if its shut off, even if the charge has extra continuing time allotted, it can't start back up because the power is gone.  Think of a car a genie grants you.  It has a fuel charge and you've used 1/4 of the tank.  You park the car to get a snack at the gas station and the genie takes the car away.  You don't get to continue using the car because you still have 3/4 of a tank of gas right?

 

* note, if you want to interpret the rules as designed by Steve, you should probably just post this to the 6th ed rules questions forum where Steve can answer.  While I think my interpretation is correct, I am not without fault and the only one who really can say whether we are following rules correctly is Steve.

 

[BoloOfEarth]

13 hours ago, dsatow said:

Nope.  Lets look at some of the examples you stated and why as I understand it will not work or will work as the case may be.

1. If Maker creates an Invisibility Belt for Honey Badger (Invisibility to Sight Group, UBO, IIF, Time Limit of 5 minutes), and he turns it on, it doesn't matter if she then switches her Gadget VPP to something else.  Honey Badger remains invisible to sight until the 5 minutes runs out.  - the answer is Yes, assuming she doesn't turn it off.
2. Same basic idea if the belt is 1 Continuing Charge of 5 Minutes duration. - the answer is no.  The difference here is the charge limitation.  Once the charge is used, those points are expended and can't be used for the rest of the gaming day in the VPP.  The invisibility continues to work though, assuming she doesn't turn it off.
3. I'd most likely allow her to do that with a Fuel Charge, so he can turn it on and off at will until the total duration is complete.  One could reasonably argue that the same can be done even if the gadget hasn't been activated yet, though the RAW seem to disallow that. - So long as the power exists in the power pool, the answer is yes.  But if the power disappears, she would not be able to reactivate it because the power wouldn't exist any more.
4. So could Maker create 8 Invisibility Belts (as above but UBO simultaneously by 8 people, or 8 continuing charges) for her teammates, followed by 8 force field belts (Resistant Protection UBO, etc.), followed by 8 flight belts (Flight UBO, etc.)? - Only if everything could fit in the VPP all at once and once the charges are used, those points are no longer accessible to the VPP for that day.

If a power is running independently of the device, if I have interpreted Steve correctly*, it continues to run.  But if its shut off, even if the charge has extra continuing time allotted, it can't start back up because the power is gone.  Think of a car a genie grants you.  It has a fuel charge and you've used 1/4 of the tank.  You park the car to get a snack at the gas station and the genie takes the car away.  You don't get to continue using the car because you still have 3/4 of a tank of gas right?

 

* note, if you want to interpret the rules as designed by Steve, you should probably just post this to the 6th ed rules questions forum where Steve can answer.  While I think my interpretation is correct, I am not without fault and the only one who really can say whether we are following rules correctly is Steve.

 

 

RE: #1 - typically UBO powers are turned on or off by the recipient (unless the grantor defines it as turned on or off by him/herself), so she can't normally turn it off.

 

RE: #2 - Please clarify - if the VPP's entire pool consists of the power with the Continuing Charge, are you saying that those points in the pool are now unavailable for the rest of the day?  Because what I quoted above seems to me to say otherwise.  To repeat (bolding added):

Quote

If a power with Continuing Charges is bought through a Multipower or VPP,

and the character switches the Framework to another slot after using a Continuing Charge, the Continuing Charge does not immediately turn off. It continues to affect the target or area until its duration expires.

The character being able to switch to another slot while a Continuing Charge is active indicates that once the Continuing Charge power is activated, that power is now independent of the pool.  Though I'm posting a question in the 6ED Rules Questions for Steve to verify this. 

 

RE: #3 - This was mainly my personal interpretation on a Fuel Charge, which per 6E1:370 is just a variation on a Continuing Charge.  However, I'll post a separate follow-up question to Steve about Fuel Charges after he responds to the first question.

 

Like you, I admit I'm not without fault and will wait to hear what Steve says.

 

[dsatow]

45 minutes ago, BoloOfEarth said:

 

RE: #1 - typically UBO powers are turned on or off by the recipient (unless the grantor defines it as turned on or off by him/herself), so she can't normally turn it off.

Sorry, she should have been the recipient but lets just clarify.  If for some reason the person in control voluntarily or involuntarily turns off the power, it stays off.

 

45 minutes ago, BoloOfEarth said:

RE: #2 - Please clarify - if the VPP's entire pool consists of the power with the Continuing Charge, are you saying that those points in the pool are now unavailable for the rest of the day?  Because what I quoted above seems to me to say otherwise.  To repeat (bolding added):

The character being able to switch to another slot while a Continuing Charge is active indicates that once the Continuing Charge power is activated, that power is now independent of the pool.  Though I'm posting a question in the 6ED Rules Questions for Steve to verify this. 

The problem here is that you are attempting to gain the function of the limitation in a power pool and using the power pool's mechanics to subvert it such that its not a limitation.  Steve has said in the past for rules with VPP, if a power with charges is used, once the charge is expended those points are no longer accessible so that you can subvert the limitation.

 

Thus if you have a 30 point pool with a 30 point control cost and create a belt which is OIF, 1 continuing charge such that it uses up 15 points in the pool and then use the charge, you would only have 15 points left in the pool.  

 

[BoloOfEarth]

Per Steve:

 

In the situation you describe, the VPP pool points assigned to the Invisibility Belt remain unavailable to the character with the VPP until the character with the Belt returns it. The Belt continues to function, and the recipient character could use its Charge each day for its 5 minute duration. That being the case, those VPP points remain “locked into” that power, and thus cannot be used for some other power.

 

This raises the question about what would happen if the power were not available to the recipient to use again — for example, if it had 1 Charge that Never Recovers. Whether the VPP pool points assigned to such a slot return to the character after the recipient character uses it is up to the GM, and may depend on special effects, game balance, common/dramatic sense, and other factors. If it’s a freestanding power — for example, Blast 12d6, UBO, 1 Charge that Never Recovers (i.e., it’s not a Focus or the like) — then the GM might let the points return to the VPP as soon as the recipient character has shot the Blast. On the other hand, if it’s a Focus of some sort, like an energy pistol, he might rule that the recipient has to give the Focus back to the character with the VPP before the points return.

 

So as long as the recipient retains the focus, the points are locked out of the VPP.  And once the focus is returned to the grantor, the points are apparently freed back up to be used again.

[dsatow]

22 hours ago, BoloOfEarth said:

Per Steve:

So as long as the recipient retains the focus, the points are locked out of the VPP.  And once the focus is returned to the grantor, the points are apparently freed back up to be used again.

 

It appears Steve updated his answer: https://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/97228-on-vpp-ubo-gadgets-and-continuing-charges/

 

[JmOz]

So going to hijack the thread.  One part of Steve's answer, that I think is the KEY element in this, is that a VPP slot should not be a ticket to get powers at 0 endurance by throwing charges on it.  The GM needs to decide where that line is, for instance a common VPP in my game is a "Flexible MP" (A type of Cosmic VPP that acts like a MP that you can rebuild every time you go to base).  Charges is a very thematic element for this, and do to the limitation of having to pre-select 10 powers you can use is still limiting (If not as much).  

 

The key element here is "Does the player get an unfair advantage over the other PC's for this."  Please note that I am more concerned with PC's in this, because end of day the NPC's have unlimited points and do not need to worry about these things (Gee I don't really need a VPP on this NPC, He just has every power....  

[BoloOfEarth]

20 hours ago, dsatow said:

 

It appears Steve updated his answer: https://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/97228-on-vpp-ubo-gadgets-and-continuing-charges/

 

 

Thanks for posting that.  I hadn't seen the update.

[iamlibertarian]

In the end (I am the one with the original question) it all really seems to come down to a combination of Game Balance and Special Effects. 

 

Maker (Gadget VPP) gives out an Invisibility Belt, it could be handled multiple ways:
   -Receiver gets the 3 uses (charges) per day, every day, and the belt automatically recharges daily, keeps it, those points are locked out of the VPP until the belt is returned

   -Receiver gets the 3 uses (charges) per day, it has to be returned to Maker to be recharged (SFX). Maker does so and the points are still locked up, or does not and the points are available to the pool again.
   -Receiver gets the 3 uses (charges)  for one day, not recoverable, once used, the points automatically go back into the VPP to be used again (also SFX)

Chemist makes a Potion of Invis from a VPP with X doses. Gives it out. When the doses are used, they are used up, the points return, and Receiver must beg for another, potion, lol.

So yeah, the character with the VPP can be a potent teammate to boost the other team members, as long as the VPP character is willing to give up a lot of his/her personal power for a while.

EDIT: It also might be smart of the person with the VPP to put a Time Limit on the UBO Power, lol.

[Chris Goodwin]

Seems to me that requiring the gadgeteer to return to the lab to switch points around would be better.  You can make whatever gadgets you want, hand them out to whoever you want; but they're stuck until you return to the lab.  I'd even rule in that case that "switching the points" doesn't necessarily automatically depower the gadgets previously handed out.  But they would then fall into the category of "items the character has but has not paid points for," and those essentially fall under GM's whim.  I'd also rule that whenever the session ends, or at whatever point a set of Charges would ordinarily return, those gadgets (grenades or whatever) would go away.  (If the other character insists on holding onto them, the GM is well within their rights to insist that the character spend points on them.)

 

Edited to add:  Thinking on it more... I think that essentially a limited, "free" form of UBO, for no extra cost, combined with those same points having a no-point requirement that to replenish the points requires either getting the gadgets back or returning to the lab.  So you can make the grenades and hand them out, but that part of the pool is locked in until you either get the grenades back or return to the lab to stock up.  I would so rule in my games, at least. 

 

Edited July 16, 2018 by Chris Goodwin
additional thoughts

[dsatow]

Just as a note.  I would as a gadgeteer not give out invisibility belts.  I'd just invest in a Invisibility Spray paint!  The effects would last only an hour or two and then leave the user bright pink.  The paint could also be washed off.  This would allow the gadgeteer to immediately use the points after making people invisible.

 

Now from my gadgeteer character: "Bwahahahahahaha!!!"  Sadly, my character would also spray paint the wall next to the women's locker room and forget that the women would also see him.

[iamlibertarian]

On 6/30/2018 at 11:23 PM, dsatow said:

 

It appears Steve updated his answer: https://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/97228-on-vpp-ubo-gadgets-and-continuing-charges/

 

I wonder if Time Limit would be good for returning the points.

As in, unlike handing out a gun where the gun has to be returned before the points could ever be used again, handing out power crystals (which are aplenty, but have to be quickly charged by Maker and attached to the receiver's personal gun), and the charge(s) last only 24 hours use them or not, before the charges die out and the energy returns to availability for Maker to recreate (Recoverable?).

Or in the case of a Mage, the focus is a mystic symbol drawn on a weapon (or some item worn by the receiver in the case of invisibility) which wears off in 4 hours whether used or not. Yeah, that sounds like a recoverable charge where the recovery happens and the power becomes available to the VPP again after X hours whether the power was used or not.

EDIT: I am not trying to make a character who can hand out an endless supply of everything. Rather, I am trying to make a support character who can often be 'Johnny on the spot' and often get the characters what they need, without having to forever give up all his/her abilities on the very first mission based on the whims of the receivers of that assistance. Like a gadgeteer who builds in failsafes, or a Mage who can recall his power when needed even if it costs the receiver that power s/he thought s/he was going to have (sound nice and comic book-dramatic).

[iamlibertarian]

I like the thought of a PC who (has already paid for Wealthy) who owns a series of Health Rejuvenation or Age Rejuvenation clinics for the rich and powerful, makes potions or 'medicines' which s/he sends to those clinics, and the points used (in her VPP) don't come back until the potions/medicines are used up or the 'charges' (efficacy of the medicine) expires.

[iamlibertarian]

On 6/28/2018 at 7:40 PM, dsatow said:

 

Nope.  Lets look at some of the examples you stated and why as I understand it will not work or will work as the case may be.

 

1. If Maker creates an Invisibility Belt for Honey Badger (Invisibility to Sight Group, UBO, IIF, Time Limit of 5 minutes), and he turns it on, it doesn't matter if she then switches her Gadget VPP to something else.  Honey Badger remains invisible to sight until the 5 minutes runs out.  - the answer is Yes, assuming she doesn't turn it off.
2. Same basic idea if the belt is 1 Continuing Charge of 5 Minutes duration. - the answer is no.  The difference here is the charge limitation.  Once the charge is used, those points are expended and can't be used for the rest of the gaming day in the VPP.  The invisibility continues to work though, assuming she doesn't turn it off.
3. I'd most likely allow her to do that with a Fuel Charge, so he can turn it on and off at will until the total duration is complete.  One could reasonably argue that the same can be done even if the gadget hasn't been activated yet, though the RAW seem to disallow that. - So long as the power exists in the power pool, the answer is yes.  But if the power disappears, she would not be able to reactivate it because the power wouldn't exist any more.
4. So could Maker create 8 Invisibility Belts (as above but UBO simultaneously by 8 people, or 8 continuing charges) for her teammates, followed by 8 force field belts (Resistant Protection UBO, etc.), followed by 8 flight belts (Flight UBO, etc.)? - Only if everything could fit in the VPP all at once and once the charges are used, those points are no longer accessible to the VPP for that day.

If a power is running independently of the device, if I have interpreted Steve correctly*, it continues to run.  But if its shut off, even if the charge has extra continuing time allotted, it can't start back up because the power is gone.  Think of a car a genie grants you.  It has a fuel charge and you've used 1/4 of the tank.  You park the car to get a snack at the gas station and the genie takes the car away.  You don't get to continue using the car because you still have 3/4 of a tank of gas right?

 

* note, if you want to interpret the rules as designed by Steve, you should probably just post this to the 6th ed rules questions forum where Steve can answer.  While I think my interpretation is correct, I am not without fault and the only one who really can say whether we are following rules correctly is Steve.

 

 

1, 2) I like this, though I might add even if it is turned off, it can still be turned back on again until the entire continuing charge is used, even if the power has been taken out of the VPP. But that even if the power is switched out of the VPP, the *points* don't return the VPP, thereby preventing handing out an unbalancing unlimited amount of gadgets/powers. 

3) That makes sense / doesn't ruin game balance, like in the case of a Smoke Generator. Even if the 'smoke generator' is taken out of the VPP, the generator can still be used by the recipient until used up or returned to be made into a new gadget, but the Points don't return to the VPP until the charge is used up or it is returned.

4) Everything has to be able to fit into the VPP to begin with, of course. And the points remain out of the VPP until the next day, the PC goes back to the lab to make more, etc, (however it was originally designed and agreed to) to make make more, etc. Love that Genie analogy!