Considering Teamwork

[g3taso]

Just finished a few Star Wars stories, and one of the concepts that they presented was a Force User improving the coordination and teamwork among their various subordinates and making them more effective in combat. I was playing with Mind Link but it didn't seem a good fit until I thought about Teamwork.

 

Battle Mind:  Teamwork 15-, Usable By Other (+1/4), MegaScale (1" = 1 km; +1/4), Area Of Effect (1" Radius; +1) (22 Active Points)

 

This seems perfect for getting your army up and ready to make war. Usable by other makes it ... usable by other, and Megascale means it will affect all the members of your army should they choose to be affected by this. Seems legit, and surprisingly reasonable Active Points. Thoughts?

[mallet]

I think it would need to have Selective on the Area Of Effect, otherwise it is granting the ability to all your allies and enemies alike. 

[BoloOfEarth]

I always liked the idea of representing that with Overall Levels, Usable by Others at Range.

[eepjr24]

Is this 5e or 6e rules? Either way, the construct is illegal under RAW, UBO has a specific mechanism for affecting multiple targets and how close they can be to you. Just for instance, affecting 64 people with UBO would need the base UBO (+1/4) Ranged (+1/2), Usable simultaneous (+1/2), 6 doubling of target (+1 1/2) and probably LOS Not Needed after Initial Use (+1/2).  So something like:

 

Teamwork, 12 + (Dex/5): 38 AP (using above advantage values) 

 

You still need Line Of Sight to grant the power.

 

Alternatively, you might convince a GM to let you buy it UBO (+1/4), Usable By Nearby (+1), Megascale (+1/4). This would grant the power to everyone, but it is still controlled by the grantor. It is more limited in that you could only coordinate attacks with the group that are a target of the caster, essentially (it is a single power, controlled by a single character, with the effects granted to a group). I don't know if that fits your needs and it is on thin ground legally, but it might work.

 

- E

[BoloOfEarth]

1 hour ago, eepjr24 said:

Alternatively, you might convince a GM to let you buy it UBO (+1/4), Usable By Nearby (+1), Megascale (+1/4). This would grant the power to everyone, but it is still controlled by the grantor. It is more limited in that you could only coordinate attacks with the group that are a target of the caster, essentially (it is a single power, controlled by a single character, with the effects granted to a group). I don't know if that fits your needs and it is on thin ground legally, but it might work.

 

If the grantor controls it totally, you'd need to add a +1/2 to the UBO.  With that, I'm not sure if the grantor can selectively take away powers for some but not all people in Usable By Nearby.  If so, that might get around having to give the power to your enemies as well as your friends.

[g3taso]

1 hour ago, eepjr24 said:

the construct is illegal under RAW

Alternatively, you might convince a GM to let you buy it UBO (+1/4), Usable By Nearby (+1), Megascale (+1/4).

I saw AoE as an alternate mechanism to affecting multiple people, although eepjr24 is entirely correct. My initial version would be DM discretion. Both your legal and "handwavium"  versions as well as UBO Overall Levels are great ideas

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think a level or two of melee combat and some rPD better reperesents good teamwork.  A bit more spendy, of course/

[Surrealone]

I dislike the idea of granting skills of any sort (including skill levels) to others because they are so inexpensive the UBO+AoE construct becomes super-cheap due to the nature of stacking advantage costs on top of a low point base.  If I were a GM, I would expect someone to use a variable effects AoE AID to improve the output of others in some way, as I think that better represents enhancement of something the character possesses … rather than giving them something they completely lack on the sheet.  I also think it more accurately reflects the appropriate cost of granting things to a massive number of people … since enough Aid to be effective will not fall into the easily-exploitable window of SmallBaseCost*HighAdvantageCost.

[g3taso]

The objection that "it should be more" seems kind of arbitrary. A $25 cell phone in my pocket adds what amounts to a great heaping pile of Active Points for global voice and video chat, internet access, wifi hotspot and so forth. My imaginary character Cell Phone Man (with all the powers of a cell phone, but as powers and not a simple piece of equipment) would have to make a hefty investment just for that little package.  I can understand the temptation to go for a higher-cost version in the pursuit of greater accuracy in reflecting the effect, but in a cinematic universe that does necessarily make the power "better". As a general rule I tend toward the assumption that if you have more than a +1 1/2 total advantage on your power you are starting to get a bit on the wild side, but below that I just don't see much potential for the abuse of SmallBaseCost*HighAdvantageCost.

 

[Surrealone]

1 hour ago, g3taso said:

The objection that "it should be more" seems kind of arbitrary. A $25 cell phone in my pocket adds what amounts to a great heaping pile of Active Points for global voice and video chat, internet access, wifi hotspot and so forth. My imaginary character Cell Phone Man (with all the powers of a cell phone, but as powers and not a simple piece of equipment) would have to make a hefty investment just for that little package.  I can understand the temptation to go for a higher-cost version in the pursuit of greater accuracy in reflecting the effect, but in a cinematic universe that does necessarily make the power "better". As a general rule I tend toward the assumption that if you have more than a +1 1/2 total advantage on your power you are starting to get a bit on the wild side, but below that I just don't see much potential for the abuse of SmallBaseCost*HighAdvantageCost.

 

Let me put it another way so that it doesn't seem 'arbitrary' (since it wasn't):

If you have two  18 DEX people who normally only have 8- Everyman rolls to coordinate … who have 13- rolls as a result of the granting of Teamwork to them in a single action, then you have granted +5 to the roll using a single attack action.

 

Consider what it would cost someone to use a single attack action to do an Aid that brings similar value (i.e. on average … i.e. using STD Effect).  To get an extra +5 to the Teamwork roll, you'd have to increase DEX by 25 … which means you'd need an 8d6 AID to DEX costing 40AP (just to start) … then you apply your AoE to it to affect multiple people. 

 

Compute the costs of 40AP*AoE versus 3AP*AoE*UBO and there's a huge delta.  That's why my observation wasn't arbitrary, at all.  It's also why this next observation is also fact-based: Your skill-based build appears to intentionally exploit a low base that is multiplied by stacked advantages to achieve something that is not otherwise achievable, cost-wise.

 

Keep in mind, though, the Aid approach was just to compare cost vs. effect, since by itself it wouldn't actually work (because the added Dex won't actually add Teamwork to the recipients' sheets).  For that, we'd need a Minor Transformation attack. To add Teamwork to the sheet of a normal human who lacks it, you need 20 BODY worth of effect.  That's a minimum of 7d6 Minor Transform … taking STD Effect -- to reliably get 20 BODY in a single attack action.  (But you'd probably need closer to 10d6 for most supers … and even more for bricks, I'd think.)  Minor Transform is, of course, 5CP per die … so to do this right it's probably even pricier than the Aid that I used to loosely compare cost vs. effect.

 

I would have expected this to be obvious to someone as familiar with the Champions/Hero system as you are, thus I didn't think I needed to do the math for you. But apparently without someone spelling it out for you, it seems 'arbitrary' to you.  I would encourage you to do the math, yourself, next time … before assuming something's arbitrary.  I would also expect you to compare the cost of your proposal to the cost of doing it with existing mechanics that are rules-legal without a GM call (which is required to allow your Skill to be treated as a Power) … unless there's no rules-legal way to do it sans GM call -- because that's just prudent planning/comparison to see if your proposal is or isn't 'too good for its cost' before putting it in front of a GM or others.

 

Sorry if you don't like my analysis, but what you've proposed is potentially devastating … and costs next to nothing for the benefits it brings … when compared with existing rules-legal means of achieving said same.

Surreal

 

P.S. As for stacked advantages -- I've found one place you tend to need lots of advantages on powers just because there's no other way to do it: making non-mental powers into mental powers.  Take a look at the rules for building a mental entangle, if you doubt.  Making mental Flashes, Darkness fields, and the like that can be used across Mind Links (like other mental attacks) against DMCV are similarly stacked (to Mental Entangle), advantage-wise … just because they must be in order to make them behave in all respects like a mental power (i.e. ACV, AVAD, LOS, etc.)  This is, in fact, the only such situation where I've found highly-stacked advantages to be pretty much required.

 

[g3taso]

On 7/13/2018 at 2:31 PM, Christopher R Taylor said:

I think a level or two of melee combat and some rPD better reperesents good teamwork.  A bit more spendy, of course/

Not that much more, really. I like it for simplicity.

(Total: 34 Active Cost, 34 Real Cost) +1 with HTH Combat, Usable Simultaneously (up to 128 people at once; +2) (15 Active Points) (Real Cost: 15) plus Armor (4 PD/0 ED), Hardened (+1/4), Usable Simultaneously (up to 128 people at once; +2) (19 Active Points) (Real Cost: 19)

[eepjr24]

2 hours ago, g3taso said:

Not that much more, really. I like it for simplicity.

(Total: 34 Active Cost, 34 Real Cost) +1 with HTH Combat, Usable Simultaneously (up to 128 people at once; +2) (15 Active Points) (Real Cost: 15) plus Armor (4 PD/0 ED), Hardened (+1/4), Usable Simultaneously (up to 128 people at once; +2) (19 Active Points) (Real Cost: 19)

This won't do what you want unless you want them to all be within reach to grant it to them (+1/4 for a few meters away, +1/2 for normal range which would be 50 meters). They also would not have control of the power unless you added at least another +1/4 for that (in other words, if you had it on OCV, they all have it on OCV). Personally as a GM I would only let you get about 50 people in a 4 meter radius circle so you'd need the +1/2 level to get to 128 people. And you are setting yourself up for an AOE attack doing it, so be careful where you try.

 

Note: CSL with all HTH went to 8 points in 6e, I did not use that since it looked like you were using 5e math.

 

- E

[dsatow]

Go with 2d6 aid to OCV/DCV, pop in indirect to go through walls and add megascale for the area of effect.  Add limitation, must be in communication with PC and requires a skill roll tactics.

 

This bypasses giving skills with usable by other, gives a combat edge to those affected.

[eepjr24]

4 minutes ago, dsatow said:

Go with 2d6 aid to OCV/DCV, pop in indirect to go through walls and add megascale for the area of effect.  Add limitation, must be in communication with PC and requires a skill roll tactics.

 

This bypasses giving skills with usable by other, gives a combat edge to those affected.

Just remember that aids to DCV only have half effect.

 

- E

[dsatow]

23 minutes ago, eepjr24 said:

Just remember that aids to DCV only have half effect.

 

- E

 

Yup, it will effectively only give 1 DCV but it will give 2 OCV.

[eepjr24]

3 hours ago, dsatow said:

 

Yup, it will effectively only give 1 DCV but it will give 2 OCV.

With either a very good roll or multiple rolls, yes. If END is not a concern, I would just make it the Boost version, two actions should get you to max or close enough most times.

 

- E

[g3taso]

On 7/16/2018 at 5:24 PM, eepjr24 said:

Just remember that aids to DCV only have half effect.

 

- E

Aid  OCV 3d6+1, MegaScale (1" = 1 km; +1/4), Indirect (Same origin, always fired away from attacker; +1/4), Ranged (+1/2) (66 Active Points)

Succor  OCV 3d6+1, Indirect (Same origin, always fired away from attacker; +1/4), MegaScale (1" = 1 km; +1/4), Ranged (+1/2) (34 Active Points)

 

Based on that note, might be easier just going with +2 OCV

 

[eepjr24]

4 minutes ago, g3taso said:

Aid  OCV 3d6+1, MegaScale (1" = 1 km; +1/4), Indirect (Same origin, always fired away from attacker; +1/4), Ranged (+1/2) (66 Active Points)

Succor  OCV 3d6+1, Indirect (Same origin, always fired away from attacker; +1/4), MegaScale (1" = 1 km; +1/4), Ranged (+1/2) (34 Active Points)

 

Based on that note, might be easier just going with +2 OCV

 

Not sure why you want 300 km range on it? Without assistance you still could not target at that range? Or did you intend to add AOE to it? Also not sure why you need indirect unless you also intended to set it to AOE, in which case you probably don't need Ranged. 

 

- E

[g3taso]

eep, I was rolling with dsatow's idea

[eepjr24]

14 hours ago, g3taso said:

eep, I was rolling with dsatow's idea

I got that, I just think you missed adding AOE to it. Megascale by itself just changes the "hex" size, it does not add AOE. So you just have a VERY long range single target AID that can skip over barriers that you have the ability to perceive beyond.

 

- E