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Can I take a recovery?


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On ‎7‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 3:36 PM, cptpatriot said:

Let me explain my PoV.

 

You have a character at Dex 1 with Dex +9, Not if taking a recovery.

When Dex 10 comes up in the order, assuming you have not done anything before that point and haven't been stunned from an attack, you need to declare at that moment to your GM, "GM, I'm Dex 1 this phase and doing nothing," then you are committed to either a Recovery or an Abort action.

 

After your declaration:

  • If you abort between Dex 10 and Dex 1, you cannot use this phase's action to abort since you have chosen to do nothing and it cannot be considered a Held Phase. You would need to abort your next phase's action.
  • If you are Stunned between Dex 10 and Dex 1, you are unable to recover from being Stunned since you can only take a Recovery at Dex 1 which is not the same as "recovering from being Stunned" citing the actions table on 6E2 23. You are forced into Recovering from being Stunned as your next phase action.

Guys, please tell me if this interpretation of the rules is incorrect.

 

Frankly, I'm not sure I can abort at all ; the Limitation says "only to Recover."

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Unlimited palindromedary taglines

 

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On 7/16/2018 at 9:52 PM, Lucius said:

 

Frankly, I'm not sure I can abort at all ; the Limitation says "only to Recover."

 

Lucius Alexander

1

 

I suppose the question is: Can 'opting to do nothing' be considered an action for the purposes of being able to abort?

Technically, you have not acted yet because you planned to do a Recovery, but planning to do a Recovery is not the same as actually doing it. Because you planned to do a Recovery, your Dex hasn't come up for purposes of Initiative. Something similar occurs when you have a character with Lightning Reflexes.

 

Character has the following:

  • Dex 1
  • +9 Dex, Not if Recovering
  • +10 Lightning Reflexes for Megablast,

then when Dex 20 comes up on the Initiative order, the player opts to not act because he is not firing the Megablast.

If at this point between his opting to not fire his Megablast and his action of Dex 10, he can abort that phase's action because he has not acted in that segment yet.

When Dex 10 comes up, he can perform any legal action, if he opts to do so but let's say he chooses not to act, then at this point he can only perform a Recovery at Dex 1, but he has not acted yet this segment, he is limited to using his action to only recover when Dex 1 comes up, but if he needs to abort before declaring at Dex 1 that he's recovering then since he has not acted in this segment he can opt to abort to his defensive action on his NEXT phase as this segment is not available to use for initiating his defensive action.

 

I hope that clarifies things.

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If he had a 1 DEX and no adders, he could choose to take any action he wanted at DEX 1.  Why can't he take any action he wants at DEX 5, or Hold his action until DEX 1?  He could Abort while holding an action.  This assumes the GM allows "generic holding of an action", but in my experience, most do.

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So is there any particular reason to not simply ignore the rule saying that taking damage in the same segment as taking a recover blocks the recover?

 

I don't see a reason to not take the damage and take the recovery, both.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary will take what it can get

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1 hour ago, Lucius said:

So is there any particular reason to not simply ignore the rule saying that taking damage in the same segment as taking a recover blocks the recover?

 

I don't see a reason to not take the damage and take the recovery, both.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary will take what it can get

Thematically I think it makes sense in most genre's to not be "catching your wind" at the same time someone is beating the snot out of you. If that's not the case in the genre you are playing, hand wave it. 

 

I noted what I would do above if someone wanted it as an option in a campaign where it was not the baseline (advantage on DEX), but you could also just make it a talent.

 

- E

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7 hours ago, dsatow said:

Opting to do nothing till later in the segment is holding an action.  Specifically in the rules you can not hold to a recovery nor can you reduce your dex for a recovery (6e2p129).

 

This comes down to interpretation - is he holding on DEX 10 to take a recovery when the earliest he could take a recovery was DEX 1?  One could interpret this as no, he is Holding to do anything other than take a recovery as he cannot act until DEX 1 if he takes a recovery. 

 

The bigger question is that Lucius has acknowledged there is no limitation to his character by placing a -0 limitation on the extra DEX, but actually, when it comes to taking a recovery, having a lower DEX is advantageous.  Which begs the question whether having a higher DEX should work to the character's detriment if he wants to recover instead of taking other actions.

 

1 hour ago, Lucius said:

So is there any particular reason to not simply ignore the rule saying that taking damage in the same segment as taking a recover blocks the recover?

 

I don't see a reason to not take the damage and take the recovery, both.

 

 With this in mind, I think making a recovery a "full phase maneuver" which works like every other full phase maneuver would be a reasonable solution.  The orphan mechanic of "recovery is not like any other action" is removed.  You want to delay to take a recovery, that's fine.  You can delay starting a haymaker too - no one seems too see that as a problem.

 

Lucius' approach of allowing the recovery regardless of damage taken also works - you may get the recovery, but you still took the damage.

 

Perhaps, if we want to address the concern that it's not appropriate to be able to recover while taking a beating, we make recovery like Haymaker - you get the recovery at the end of the next segment, so the opponents always have one segment during which you are vulnerable - and leave in the "maneuver fails if you take damage before getting the recovery".  At least actions that don't land until the end of the next segment are not unprecedented.

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8 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

This comes down to interpretation - is he holding on DEX 10 to take a recovery when the earliest he could take a recovery was DEX 1?  One could interpret this as no, he is Holding to do anything other than take a recovery as he cannot act until DEX 1 if he takes a recovery. 

 

Per 6e2p20 holding an action is a character choosing not to act when his dex indicates that his phase begins.  My point is that he has declared he's taking a recovery at his action on Dex 10;he's made the decision then and there.  If he doesn't declare he's taking a recovery, then he's holding his action.  If he doesn't know whether to take the action or not, he can't know to act at Dex 1 since its only for Recoveries.  In other words, what he's really doing is delaying his 10 Dex action saying "If its safe to take a recovery, I'll hold and take a recovery at Dex 1." 

 

In any case, there is no justification for a 1 Dex Recovery Only except to try and bypass the rule that you have to declare a recovery on your Dex in the phase.  If this is the case, it would be better to try and convince the GM to make recoveries immediate as a house rule.

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17 hours ago, Lucius said:

So is there any particular reason to not simply ignore the rule saying that taking damage in the same segment as taking a recover blocks the recover?

 

I don't see a reason to not take the damage and take the recovery, both.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary will take what it can get

Some things should preclude a recovery. Like being in a cloud of tear gas. or being on fire. And frankly, its hard to imagine catching your breath while being pummeled.

recovery shouldn't be viewed as an instantaneous action. Its an action that takes the entire segment. Dex is just stating who resolves their actions first over a very brief period of time. Regardless if you are DEX 100 or Dex 1, a recovery takes a full segment. The person acting at Dex 1's recovery isn't any taking a shorter period of time to recover than the person who had to declare it at Dex 100.

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15 hours ago, dsatow said:

 

Per 6e2p20 holding an action is a character choosing not to act when his dex indicates that his phase begins.  My point is that he has declared he's taking a recovery at his action on Dex 10;he's made the decision then and there.  If he doesn't declare he's taking a recovery, then he's holding his action.  If he doesn't know whether to take the action or not, he can't know to act at Dex 1 since its only for Recoveries.  In other words, what he's really doing is delaying his 10 Dex action saying "If its safe to take a recovery, I'll hold and take a recovery at Dex 1." 

 

In any case, there is no justification for a 1 Dex Recovery Only except to try and bypass the rule that you have to declare a recovery on your Dex in the phase.  If this is the case, it would be better to try and convince the GM to make recoveries immediate as a house rule.

 

So why isn't the guy with Lightning Reflexes to use one ability not considered to be delaying his action if he waits for his normal DEX?  Or would you require him to declare, at his higher LR DEX, that he is planning on taking a recovery at his normal DEX, and invalidate his recovery if he is hit between that LR DEX and his normal DEX?

 

I have avoided discussing whether that "DEX 1" is reasonable as Lucius is presenting an extreme mechanical example.  For purposes of evaluating the rules, I think we should assume that the construct is perfectly justified by the conception of the character, and is the best, if not only, way to accurately model the specific concept and special effects.

 

9 hours ago, incrdbil said:

Some things should preclude a recovery. Like being in a cloud of tear gas. or being on fire. And frankly, its hard to imagine catching your breath while being pummeled.

recovery shouldn't be viewed as an instantaneous action. Its an action that takes the entire segment. Dex is just stating who resolves their actions first over a very brief period of time. Regardless if you are DEX 100 or Dex 1, a recovery takes a full segment. The person acting at Dex 1's recovery isn't any taking a shorter period of time to recover than the person who had to declare it at Dex 100.

 

But that's not what happens.  If the 100 DEX fellow declares a recovery, the 1 DEX character (or anyone else with a DEX lower than 100) can attack him and spoil it.  If the 1 DEX character declares a recovery, no one who did not delay has any opportunity to prevent his recovery.  If we have two characters of equal SPD, one with a 30 DEX and the other with a 29, the 30 DEX character can declare a recovery, get hit at DEX 29 and lose the recovery.  But the 29 DEX character can get pummelled, immediately initiate a recovery and will get his recovery since it happens at the end of the segment, before the 30 DEX character can react.  Is that a reasonable result?

 

Perhaps the rule should parallel a Haymaker, becoming an action which can be declared any time you want (including delayed DEX) but which does not occur until the end of the next segment and can be disrupted in the meantime.  Further, maybe all "happens a segment later" actions should happen at the same DEX it was declared at, in the following segment, so every character is exposed to precisely the same time - exactly one segment - to disrupt their action.

 

I don't believe the options are limited to "use the current rule or make recovery immediate".  Getting the recover one segment later, immediate recovery, or you cannot take a recovery if you take damage at any time in the phase (whether before or after your DEX) all seem equally reasonable to me, just taking Recovery in isolation.

 

But the more I think on it, the more it seems like Recover, Haymaker, and Extra Time - Extra Segment should work the same way.  Presently, Recovery is the outlier in that you cannot delay starting the process.  But all three mean that the better your DEX is, the greater the timeframe for others to disrupt your power.  Why should higher DEX make it MORE likely you get disrupted? 

 

What would we charge for Lightning Reflexes to initiate a recovery?  Sounds like that should give points back, rather than charge them, doesn't it?

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9 hours ago, incrdbil said:

. And frankly, its hard to imagine catching your breath while being pummeled.
 

 

You know, I don't often watch boxing, but I could swear somewhere I've seen a boxer leaning back against the ropes, letting his opponent pummel him, obviously catching is breath and letting his opponent tire himself out.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Taking a recovery in a palindromedary tagline

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19 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

What would we charge for Lightning Reflexes to initiate a recovery?  Sounds like that should give points back, rather than charge them, doesn't it?

 

I agree. But I'll tell you what would be worth charging points for: Lightning Reflexes to FINISH a Recovery.

 

If I have DEX 20 and buy +20 Lightning Reflexes to Finish Recovering, you have t hit me at DEX 20 to spoil it.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says it sounds like we have it (re)covered

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4 hours ago, Lucius said:

 

You know, I don't often watch boxing, but I could swear somewhere I've seen a boxer leaning back against the ropes, letting his opponent pummel him, obviously catching is breath and letting his opponent tire himself out.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Taking a recovery in a palindromedary tagline

That's is a thing. Could be represented as just blocking or dodging, not expending STR end to build up from post 12 recoveries while the opponent tires out from punching. Or maybe those punches don't do enough damage to beat the boxers of when covering up. Could gloves be giving pd only usable  to cover up and recover?

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19 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

So why isn't the guy with Lightning Reflexes to use one ability not considered to be delaying his action if he waits for his normal DEX?  Or would you require him to declare, at his higher LR DEX, that he is planning on taking a recovery at his normal DEX, and invalidate his recovery if he is hit between that LR DEX and his normal DEX?

 

So that is an interesting point that I hadn't thought of (dex 1 with +19 Lightning Reflexes for everything but recoveries).  My first reaction would be to allow it since you are basically screwing the character's Dex Rolls over to get this, but I'm not sure enough not to ask Steve on the Questions forum about it.  We'll see what he says.

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I'm not sure the question is complete, so I added a more complex build to get a more thorough analysis.  Selling DEX back to 1 and buying it back up for everything but recovery is a pretty specific build, but lots of characters have Lightning Reflexes and/or limited DEX.  Do they have to declare a recovery at their highest possible point in the action order (based on DEX and LR), their highest possible DEX, or the highest DEX at which they could act to take a recovery?

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So the answers are in.  Makes me think avoiding the 1/2 DCV penalty is pretty easy and only costs a minimal amount of points.

 

Buy Dex down to 3.  Buy lightning reflexes up to a Dex you want to have in the chart.  Buy a skill level with all agility skills at 6 points a level.  So a lightning reflex Dex of 20 would cost 17 for the lightning reflex and 18 for the three skill levels minus 14 for buying down of dex.  End result, 21 points.  Buy flying dodge to compensate if the GM rules you need to dive for cover and the skill levels aren't applied to the dex roll.

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dsatow's build costs 21 vs 20 for a 20 DEX.

 

But there are no complementary skill rolls(only one skill at a time) and no increase to DEX rolls. 

 

I dislike the current "the whole is greater than the sum of the parts".  I would rather see LR priced, as it is, at 1 point per +1 DEX for all initiative purposes, and +5 points for +1 to all DEX rolls (and, say, 4 points for only a few rolls it does not affect, like no base DEX roll; 3 for +1 to a group, or +1 to any DEX roll but only one at a time, +2 for +1 to one of a tight group at a time, and +1 for +1 to a single DEX-based roll (rather than the current 2 point cost). *

 

Absent that, why  not Lucius' +17 DEX, not for taking a recovery?  It's not limiting, so -0, but it sure highlights how the REC mechanic isn't really a good fit with the rest of the system.

 

* FWIW, I would apply similar logic to INT (price at 2 per point; +1 PER is 5 points and scale down through sense groups and individual senses);

 

PRE (price at 2 per point; +1d6 PRE attacks cost 5 points; PRE is not a defrense stat)

 

EGO (keep at 1 point; +1 EGO rolls for 2 points; +2 PRE defense for 1 point, +5 to resist mental powers for 1 point).

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