Summoning Weapons

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

I OFTEN feel that there should be some kind of "continuous but not continuous" modifier

 

I agree.  A sword is a perfect example of this: its always there and available, but not constantly dealing damage.  It doesn't require the limitations used to bring it into existence, but is not a permanent object.

[Cassandra]

The advantage of summoning a weapon without using a focus is that the special effect can be changed in minor ways.  Let's say the Character is a police officer as well as a superhero.  They use a blaster pistol as a hero, and it becomes a standard pistol as a police officer, albeit firing an energy charge instead of a bullet.

[eepjr24]

12 hours ago, JmOz said:

My problem with summoned weapons has always been the summoning itself...I OFTEN feel that there should be some kind of "continuous but not continuous" modifier (So I summon sword, the sword is now constant, so I need to pay end for it, or if I had a few lims on summons, like gestures and incantations I don't have to continually do them every round) but does not give the main advantage of continuous (repeated damage in this case).  Probably somewhere between a -1/4 to a +1/4

I guess I am confused on what you mean here? This is pretty much default behavior? If you want gestures and incantations, you take them as "just to start" and set a reasonable time until you need to use them (next combat or the like). HKA's only consume END when you use them. This would probably qualify as Physical Manifestation as well. What am I missing here?

[JmOz]

6 hours ago, eepjr24 said:

I guess I am confused on what you mean here? This is pretty much default behavior? If you want gestures and incantations, you take them as "just to start" and set a reasonable time until you need to use them (next combat or the like). HKA's only consume END when you use them. This would probably qualify as Physical Manifestation as well. What am I missing here?

 

The problem is that that is not the default.  The Default on an instant power is that you have to do it each and every time.  The power does not stick around

 

So FireSword has the power to summon a blade of fire, he needs to call on the power of an ancient Jinn to do so (evoking it's name, incantations).  RAW he needs to say the name every-time he uses the sword's power.  However the way the player wants it to work is he says it once and the sword remains until he dismisses it..  This option is not available.

[massey]

5 hours ago, JmOz said:

 

The problem is that that is not the default.  The Default on an instant power is that you have to do it each and every time.  The power does not stick around

 

So FireSword has the power to summon a blade of fire, he needs to call on the power of an ancient Jinn to do so (evoking it's name, incantations).  RAW he needs to say the name every-time he uses the sword's power.  However the way the player wants it to work is he says it once and the sword remains until he dismisses it..  This option is not available.

 

Sure it's available.  You could do it as Only in Hero ID, if there's some way to prevent him from summoning his sword.  Or if there's not, you can still put a limitation on it ("must speak word to summon sword"), but it's probably not worth even a -1/4.  It's a -0 limitation that comes up so rarely that it's pretty much just a special effect.

 

You're getting into areas where it's technically limiting, but so infrequently that it isn't worth a points discount.  

[eepjr24]

15 hours ago, JmOz said:

 

The problem is that that is not the default.  The Default on an instant power is that you have to do it each and every time.  The power does not stick around

 

So FireSword has the power to summon a blade of fire, he needs to call on the power of an ancient Jinn to do so (evoking it's name, incantations).  RAW he needs to say the name every-time he uses the sword's power.  However the way the player wants it to work is he says it once and the sword remains until he dismisses it..  This option is not available.

 

Ah, I see what you mean. You need Time Limit for that. It is an advantage for instant powers, not a limitation, and you may think it is too costly for what you get, but it does exactly what you are asking for. The book example is for claws, but swords work just as easily.

 

Quote

Example: Xeldruthak creates a spell that makes his hand grow demonic claws from the tips of the fingers. He defines this as an HKA 1d6 with Time Limit (1 Minute). After he casts the spell (which 
requires a Full Phase, Gestures, Incantations, and a successful Magic roll), for the next minute he  can use his HKA in any Phase without having to go through the preparations all over again. He pays END when he casts the spell, and any Phase when he uses the HKA. On the Phases when he doesn’t use the claws, other people can still perceive them, but he doesn’t pay END for them.

 

You could add other advantages or limitations to the sword to make it a focus or physical manifestation, 0 END (magical or high tech), etc. etc, etc.

 

- E

[L. Marcus]

For 5E, it's Lingering from Fantasy Hero.

[massey]

Why are you guys insisting on paying for an Advantage that only makes your power worse?

[L. Marcus]

How so?

[massey]

Let's say I have a 3D6 HKA called "energy sword".  It springs into being whenever I want it.  So I focus my concentration for a moment, and a blazing red energy sword appears in my hand.  Now I can whack people with it and they take damage.  In game terms, what is happening?

 

Well, every phase I use the energy sword, I pay the Endurance cost and I can hit people with the sword.  The visual appearance of the sword doesn't matter.  It appears in my hand instantly, whenever I want it.  I pay the Endurance only when I swing the sword -- if I stand there for a few phases not using my sword, then I don't spend End.  The sword is instantly available whenever I need it, requiring no action except my normal half-phase to attack.  It disappears whenever I feel like describing it disappearing.  This is what I get with a simple, basic HKA, with no Advantages.

 

JmOz wants to have something where he creates the blade and has it stick around.  But you get that for free.  There's no need to pay extra for it.

[dmjalund]

one question is - how long is the moment required to summon it?

 

is it a segment?

 

does it count as a half-phase action?

 

can the action of summoning the sword be interrupted?

[massey]

15 minutes ago, dmjalund said:

one question is - how long is the moment required to summon it?

 

is it a segment?

 

does it count as a half-phase action?

 

can the action of summoning the sword be interrupted?

 

With a normal HKA, no advantages and no limitations, it doesn't take any amount of time to "summon" it.

 

GM:  Okay, segment 5.  Bob, you go first on Dex 26.  What do you do?

Bob:  I'm going to do a half-move over to the robot, and I'm going to hit him with my energy sword.

GM:  Alright.  Roll to hit.

 

Nothing is required to start using the sword.  It just appears in your hand because that's how the baseline power works.  If you want to modify the power so you "summon" it, and the summoning takes an action (or puts other restrictions on it), then you are reducing the effectiveness of the baseline power.  It should get cheaper.

[eepjr24]

25 minutes ago, massey said:

 

With a normal HKA, no advantages and no limitations, it doesn't take any amount of time to "summon" it.

 

GM:  Okay, segment 5.  Bob, you go first on Dex 26.  What do you do?

Bob:  I'm going to do a half-move over to the robot, and I'm going to hit him with my energy sword.

GM:  Alright.  Roll to hit.

 

Nothing is required to start using the sword.  It just appears in your hand because that's how the baseline power works.  If you want to modify the power so you "summon" it, and the summoning takes an action (or puts other restrictions on it), then you are reducing the effectiveness of the baseline power.  It should get cheaper.

Correct. The problem is that JM wants to put limitations like Full Phase, Incantations and Gestures on his HKA. And only do them when he summons the sword once (not every time he hits), until he dismisses it or it goes away. That takes an advantage to make happen.

 

- E

[massey]

3 minutes ago, eepjr24 said:

Correct. The problem is that JM wants to put limitations like Full Phase, Incantations and Gestures on his HKA. And only do them when he summons the sword once (not every time he hits), until he dismisses it or it goes away. That takes an advantage to make happen.

 

- E

 

I don't think so.  I think he just needs to modify the limitations that he is putting on the sword.  That's why I suggested Only in Hero ID.  Or you put just a "Limited Power" limitation on it (-1/4 probably).  But there's no reason to increase the Active Points of the power just to get a worse ability.

[eepjr24]

2 minutes ago, massey said:

 

I don't think so.  I think he just needs to modify the limitations that he is putting on the sword.  That's why I suggested Only in Hero ID.  Or you put just a "Limited Power" limitation on it (-1/4 probably).  But there's no reason to increase the Active Points of the power just to get a worse ability.

<shrug> Every GM can allow what they want in their games. If you wanted to take the Full Phase, Incantations and Gestures only to start, I would probably just give you a -0 on the whole shebang and call it a day.  I'd just call it SFX that it sticks around in between attacks.

 

Points wise, the real points works out the same if you take Full Phase, Gestures, Incantations and Time Limit: 5 minutes or a -0 limitation. 

 

- E

[JmOz]

I will admit I forgot about time limit.  And I agree that it is inappropriately priced for this ability (arguably ok if it allowed a power to work outside a framework).  I would say a -0 with a "Costs endurance to maintain" clause would be about right for the versitility of the ability...

[Spence]

You are making things far too complicated.

 

2D6 HKA OAF  Sword.

or

2D6 HKA PM* Sword. 

 

*Physical Manifestation

 

It is a power 2d6HKA (magic sword)

Either of the limitations allows it to be knocked out of hand (disarmed)

Either of the limitations allows the PC to magically regain the sword on their next phase when they spend end and "use" it.   Whether it is there instantaneously or flies across the room to hand is just special effects/narrative. 

 

Game mechanics for game effect, special effects for the rest.

 

Hero is fun, simple and easy.  But even Chutes and Ladders can be made complicated if you work hard enough at it.

 

Edited August 3, 2018 by Spence
Spelling

[JmOz]

Yes, at that level you are right

 

But gets more complicated if you add other limitations...

[Spence]

1 hour ago, JmOz said:

Yes, at that level you are right

 

But gets more complicated if you add other limitations...

 

Precisely.

So why add them and overcomplicate a simple concept?

 

To me this is a classic case of why people think Hero is complicated. 

 

[JmOz]

Because some people like to be as precise as possible.  Or there are mechanics involved that do not "fit" as is.  

 

 

[Lucius]

18 hours ago, Spence said:

You are making things far too complicated.

 

2D6 HKA OAF  Sword.

or

2D6 HKA PM* Sword. 

 

*Physical Manifestation

 

It is a power 2d6HKA (magic sword)

Either of the limitations allows it to be knocked out of hand (disarmed)

Either of the limitations allows the PC to magically regain the sword on their next phase when they spend end and "use" it.   Whether it is there instantaneously or flies across the room to hand is just special effects/narrative. 

 

Game mechanics for game effect, special effects for the rest.

 

Hero is fun, simple and easy.  But even Chutes and Ladders can be made complicated if you work hard enough at it.

 

 

Wait a minute -

 

you'll let me take the Obvious Accessible Focus Limitation on an attack power; and then if I'm disarmed it's not trouble to get the weapon back, I just "magically regain" it on my "next phase?"

I want to play in your game. What other Limitations do you let people get a discount for but don't actually penalize them?
 

Lucius Alexander

 

What do I get for Limitation: Must be riding a palindromedary?

[Matt the Bruins]

Yeah, OIF might approximate that, but the Accessible part of OAF means it can be taken away and you don't get to use it 'til you successfully get it back.