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Sending baddies flying


Rebar

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HGv5.

In another thread, I was building a tornado-like character that would whirl across the battlefield, knocking several foes flying with his spinning fists of doom.

 

It was a dead-end. Turns out, I had completely forgotten that there is no such thing as a "Multiple Move Through"; there is only a Multiple Move By. (Thanks, I guess, to Simon, who incited me to refresh my memory of the rules after a long absence).

 

A Multiple Move By does STR/2 + velocity/5. In a max 40AP game, the very best I can do is 4D6 from STR + 4D6 from 20" running. That's an average 8 BODY for knockback. Minus 2D6, and I get an average 1" knockback. Not what I was hoping for.

 

Applying increased knockback - in any form - does not actually help at all. (Try it. Stay within the AP cap.)

 

So:

Since my concept is that of knocking multiple baddies flying, I am trying a different construct to get the effect.

 

I'm looking at applying TK - linked to the Move By maneuver - or some such set of limitations - and 'No range' because he'd have to successfully hit the baddie.

 

I don't intend to overpower it. I'm just looking for a few inches of simulated Knockback. I guess I'm essentially trying to create a "Multiple Move Through".  I'm less interested in damage than I am in sending them flying.

 

1a] Is there any reason why this would not be a valid combination to get the effect? TK is a Constant power, so I don't think its a problem having it last the whole action.

 

1b] Would I have to buy it as Area Effect, (to cover every hex I pass through), or would you as a GM allow it to apply as I made a successful attack against each baddie?

 

2] If it were allowed, how do you suppose the actual knockback and the extra knockback would apply? Would you count TK push as in addition to the STR+Velocity knockback? Or would you disqualify the normal Move By knockback and only apply the TK?

If no to both, do you have any suggestions about how this concept could be realized?

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TK "grab and throw" sounds like a perfectly reasonable approach for this.

 

1a] Not that I can think of.

 

1b] I don't think you need to buy the TK as AoE, but I would make you pay the TK's END cost for each target hit.

 

2] As GM, I'd just combine the KB distance from the Move By with the TK's "throwing" distance. Keep it simple.

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12 minutes ago, dsatow said:

i'd probably do it as HA with double knockback, but that's not a guaranteed flying situation if you do under 7 dice on average.

 

Right, which, given a 40AP cap, is pretty hard to do.

 

But there's another probem with HTH. It's essentially adding directly to my STR (it'll certainly be more than 8D6 HTH damage). And that should surely be considered a violation of the AP cap.

 

I don't need to do more damage than allowed, I just want to do more knockback.

 

I guess I could add a 'only for the 'purpose of knockback' limitation, and see what the GM thinks.

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There are several ways to send people flying by the rules.

 

1) grab and throw (telekinesis or by personal strength)

2) knockback

3) flight usable as an attack (usually very frowned on by GMs)

4) teleportation, special effect, flew to location

5) dimensional change to dimension where people fly away from you (tends to get your character sheet ripped up).

 

If you want to use a "runs through crowd knocking them flying" attack you have a few options.

The most obvious is an area effect attack with extra knockback which goes off linked to a run, so you bulldoze through them and they scatter.

Another option is an AE attack that teleports you to the final location (most move through intervening space); simulating the blast through

And there are variants on those.

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Not quite what you're looking for but:

 

There's also Casual STR.

 

In any situation where the character uses half or less than their full STR using that STR takes a 0 phase.

So as long as your 40 STR hero is running through a crowd of normals they can simply keep moving and don't slow down. Well, unless the dice are really against you.

 

You could buy AoE -Line for your STR, with limitations to simulate having to move through the space. But once again that hits the points cap.
 

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1 hour ago, Rebar said:

Right, which, given a 40AP cap, is pretty hard to do.

 

But there's another probem with HTH. It's essentially adding directly to my STR (it'll certainly be more than 8D6 HTH damage). And that should surely be considered a violation of the AP cap.

 

I don't need to do more damage than allowed, I just want to do more knockback.

 

I guess I could add a 'only for the 'purpose of knockback' limitation, and see what the GM thinks.

 

It will be less than 8d6 if the normal move by damage is 8d6.  The HA with the advantage will prorate the normal strength down from the moveby.  Thus if you were doing normally 6d6 on a moveby, by adding 1d6 HA with double knockback, you would end up doing 5d6 with double knockback(the 6d6 prorates down to 4d6 and then you add the 1d6).  Technically, you will be spreading out the various point costs (on strength, flight and hth attack) so the active cost of a single power will be less than the limit, but most GMs will just look at the final damage output with the advantage and declare it as the active point of the attack.  

 

The "toss back effect" issue will probably cause a problem to the GM since it seems they to want to restrict the max damage of the players.  A throw or knockback would do extra damage and they might be prone against it anyways.  One old trick is to use in this case is what Christopher R Taylor noted in his post and force a usable against another movement power on the target.  A few meters of uncontrolled movement shouldn't do damage and will get the effect you probably want.

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16 hours ago, zslane said:

TK "grab and throw" sounds like a perfectly reasonable approach for this.

 

1b] I don't think you need to buy the TK as AoE, but I would make you pay the TK's END cost for each target hit.

 

Why would this require paying END for each target hit when END for STR would only be paid once?

 

EDIT:  Because he is doing a multiple attack, so he pays END for each attack attempted, on STR as well as TK, that's why!

 

14 hours ago, Rebar said:

Right, which, given a 40AP cap, is pretty hard to do.

 

But there's another probem with HTH. It's essentially adding directly to my STR (it'll certainly be more than 8D6 HTH damage). And that should surely be considered a violation of the AP cap.

 

I don't need to do more damage than allowed, I just want to do more knockback.

 

I guess I could add a 'only for the 'purpose of knockback' limitation, and see what the GM thinks.

 

I think that any combination that uses one 40 AP ability to add damage/DCs to another 40 AP ability falls outside the spirit of a cap.  However, this would be one of those reasons I think AP caps can be very problematic.

 

Maybe we are overthinking this.  Given the goal is to send opponents flying, not necessary do massive damage, what if he simply used the Grab By maneuver, which combines Grab and Move By (base -3 OCV, -4 DCV in 6e).  That's still 40 STR (same calculation as the move by with a 40 STR and 20" running).  On grabbing someone, you can immediately Throw them (untargeted - if he wants to try to hit someone/something, that is a separate attack action).

 

Adding the penalties for Grab By to the modifiers for multiple attacks will be pretty painful, but the points otherwise spent on that Telekinesis will buy a lot of Penalty Skill Levels to make this a signature move.

 

In any case, I echo the comments above - discuss the move with your GM.  Reasoning from effect, if the effect is not overpowered, it should not matter how it is achieved, or even whether it violates an AP cap.  If it is overpowered, the GM should reject it however it may be constructed.

 

Given the CV issues, it feels like a MookBuster power, which means it should not be overpowered.  Nothing precludes using a Grab and Throw with no special abilities, so a 40 STR character can easily make a half move and slam a target to the ground (if he can hit).  Investing points to have a better CV, and perhaps to offset penalties to DCV and/or for striking multiple targets makes this a signature move, but it really only modifies a move anyone could have made.

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3 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

Why would this require paying END for each target hit when END for STR would only be paid once?

 

 

As an alternative to buying AoE TK, which would incur a fairly hefty END price above the STR END used for the Move By. The combination of Move By + TK throw against multiple targets is likely to either exceed AP or DC limits, or be a little too effective for its Real Cost, and so to counter-balance that I would make it "expense" in the form of END cost rather than disallow it entirely.

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What is the 5e length of a Line?  2” per 5 AP, I think, for a +1 advantage.  TK with an AoE line at 40 AP is likely to be pretty low STR.  This highlights a problem with AP limits – that TK would have no range, no indirect effects and be restricted to tossing the target back (which kind of also makes it Instant instead of Constant), but 40 AP is still 40 AP.

 

Is Grab-By a separate maneuver in 5e?  That is really feeling like the simplest approach.  I am guessing the character already has a 40 STR and 20” Running, so rather than buy special TK, buying PSLs to offset the OCV and DCV penalties of Grab Bys (including multiple Grab Bys) seems like it would be a reasonable approach. 

 

Using the 6e maneuver, three PSLs for Grab By puts the OCV mod to -0, add in four more (2X more) for multiple Grab Bys and you can hit three targets (X + 1 targets) at your normal OCV.  Four DCV PSLs and you get your normal DCV back as well.

 

With decent rolls (and/or more PSLs, maybe some +2 OCV skill levels with one maneuver), he barrels through four opponents, hurling them to the ground (or Throwing them a few “ back given his 40 STR), grappling a fifth at the end of his move to hold and Squeeze, or Slam into a wall, should he wish to do so.  As the targets are struck momentarily, I’d consider these Standing Throws.

 

He does 8d6, so he is not breaking the DC cap suggested by 40 AP, he’s not buying anything that costs over 40 AP and he simply uses his STR with a combat maneuver.  Especially heavy targets are resistant to being Thrown, as they reasonably should be.  As a Multiple Attack, he pays STR END for each attack attempted (which is consistent with zslane’s charge of END for each use of TK – edited my earlier Q), but no extra END.  He can shape the group attacked as finely as he can shape his running path.  And he leaves a bunch of prone baddies in his wake.

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13 hours ago, dsatow said:

 

... the active cost of a single power will be less than the limit, but most GMs will just look at the final damage output with the advantage and declare it as the active point of the attack.  

 

Really?? ? I would not have thought that to be the way most GMs would see it.

 

Regardless, I doubt my GM will see it that way. He's got an AP cap simply to discourage single-attack "Walking Howitzer" type concepts.

 

 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

What is the 5e length of a Line?  2” per 5 AP, I think, for a +1 advantage. 

 

No. remember, I can run all over the battlefield - so a line wouldn't  be sufficient. I'd have to buy the AF as "any shape," then limit it as "only hexes he passes through".

 

 

buying PSLs to offset the OCV and DCV penalties of Grab Bys (including multiple Grab Bys) seems like it would be a reasonable approach. 

 

Yep. Got those.

 

 

 

Using the 6e maneuver, three PSLs for Grab By puts the OCV mod to -0, add in four more (2X more) for multiple Grab Bys and you can hit three targets (X + 1 targets) at your normal OCV.  Four DCV PSLs and you get your normal DCV back as well.

 

With decent rolls (and/or more PSLs, maybe some +2 OCV skill levels with one maneuver), he barrels through four opponents, hurling them to the ground (or Throwing them a few “ back given his 40 STR), grappling a fifth at the end of his move to hold and Squeeze, or Slam into a wall, should he wish to do so.  As the targets are struck momentarily, I’d consider these Standing Throws.

 

He does 8d6, so he is not breaking the DC cap suggested by 40 AP, he’s not buying anything that costs over 40 AP and he simply uses his STR with a combat maneuver.  Especially heavy targets are resistant to being Thrown, as they reasonably should be.  As a Multiple Attack, he pays STR END for each attack attempted (which is consistent with zslane’s charge of END for each use of TK – edited my earlier Q), but no extra END.  He can shape the group attacked as finely as he can shape his running path.  And he leaves a bunch of prone baddies in his wake.

 

I will process that, thanks.

 

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14 hours ago, Amorkca said:

Is your GM not going to allow a 40 Str character to do a haymaker?  That would exceed the AP Cap but only due to a maneuver...

He will definitely allow that.

 

The AP cap is simply to discourage one-trick ponies / walking Howitzers.

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You know what the irony here is?

One of the things that attracted me to this was how simple the character concept is.

He has one trick. He runs and he knocks agents down like bowling pins. That's it.

 

I am a menace at making fabulously complex characters, both conceptually and mechanically. I find SFX that are so flexible, I end up just buying a giant VPP, and then writing up a separate sheet of 2 dozen pre-made powers I can use. A real headache for a GM, and a bit of a teasing target from my teammates.

 

But this new GM for this new campaign has been making noises about dramatically simplifying the rules to make game play go faster.

 

So I thought I'd make a character that's really simple in execution. A simple brick with one move. A refreshing change from my usual.

 

Who'd'a thunk that simple execution would require so much complexity to design?

 

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30 minutes ago, Rebar said:

 

Who'd'a thunk that simple execution would require so much complexity to design?

 

 

Not me. But then, I tend to look for the simplest set of powers and mechanics that capture the essence of the concept, rather than try and capture every single little nuance with an unwieldy collection of Advantages, Limitations, Triggers, and so on. It's up to you how much complexity you want to endure for your character concept. 6e character build suggestions around here have a real Kitchen Sink problem, IMO, but it is quite possible to ignore all that and take a more 4e (i.e., simplified/abstracted) approach if you are so inclined.

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Just to help emphasize my argument for the flight issue, here's how I would build the power.

 

3 Real Points: Flight 2m, AoE 2m(+1/4), Selective(+1/4), 0 end (+1/2), Usable as an Attack (+1 1/4).  6 Active points.  Lim: Only to fly away from PC (-1/4), Restrainable (-1/2)

 

 

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1 hour ago, tombrown803 said:

If he is willing to let a 40 STR character do a haymaker, perhaps you could ask him if you could add a 4d6 HA, only increase the distance knockback, not damage

Yeah, but that'll only apply to one hit. If I wanted to do only one hit, I'd just build it around a Move Through.

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1 hour ago, dsatow said:

Just to help emphasize my argument for the flight issue, here's how I would build the power.

 

3 Real Points: Flight 2m, AoE 2m(+1/4), Selective(+1/4), 0 end (+1/2), Usable as an Attack (+1 1/4).  6 Active points.  Lim: Only to fly away from PC (-1/4), Restrainable (-1/2)

 

 

Oooh! I didn't see what you were trying to do before.

 

Yeah! That's cool.

 

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