Sending baddies flying

[Christopher R Taylor]

If you use the (highly sketchy) flight move you have to make sure you buy it so the targets don't get to control it etc, and make it instant (so they fly but then stop).  Id suggest you consider another build like this though:

 

Bowling Pins: Double Knockback on strength (area effect Line 16m, Instant, linked to running) 40 active points, 14 real.

[Rebar]

34 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Bowling Pins: Double Knockback on strength (area effect Line 16m, Instant, linked to running) 40 active points, 14 real.

But double knockback plus AF on STR turns it into a 110AP power.

[freakboy6117]

completely unrelated but the title made me picture a mental entangle/ego blast that traps the target in a nightmarish long-haul coach flight (screaming baby broken screen middle seat grandmother with Photo albums PLURAL!!!!!)

[Christopher R Taylor]

But double knockback plus AF on STR turns it into a 110AP power.

 

It would if your strength was constantly that way, but an understanding GM will treat that attack as a separate power, since its instant and not something you can use at any time.  Only for that maneuver and effect.

[dsatow]

The thing is, if they move 2m, they are out of the AoE and lose the flight.  You can add the +1/2 advantage to the power Grantor controls power which might increase the costs by 1 point.  The thing is, the sketchiness of the power is leveled by the fact that the power only tosses the target ~6'.  The target can still breakfall to their feet and the distance travelled does no appreciable damage (1d6N at best).  Also, if the target is heavier than normal or has some power which would negate the movement, that would restrain the power.  I think most GMs would let it go.

[BoloOfEarth]

How about:

 

Tornado On A Leash:  18 STR TK, AoE Hex (+1/2); No Range (-1/2), Only to Grab and Throw in a random direction (-1/2).  40 AP, 20 RP

 

Since "No Range" means HtH Range, define it as always the hex directly in front of him.  So he moves along, and the tornado in front of him clears a path.  As GM, I'd say targets can make a Breakfall or Acrobatics roll to land on their feet; otherwise, they end up sitting on their butts or lying down on the job.

 

On an average weight person, this should have an extra 8 STR, which means a standing throw of 3" (6m).  Since "random direction" also includes a possible upward (or downward) angle, I'd actually consider that 1d6 meters (or 1/2d6 inches) distance from the target's original hex, in a random direction determined by another 1d6.  (If that direction is directly behind the human tornado, than means the target is tossed over to land behind him.)  This all assumes targets on the ground. If target is already airborne, roll 1d6 for direction and then fudge the distance up / down / away with another few d6 rolls, unless they're using some Flight to resist being tossed away.

[Rebar]

2 hours ago, BoloOfEarth said:

So he moves along, and the tornado in front of him clears a path.

Well, he doesn't create a tornado - he is a whirling tornado - of fists.

 

I'm imagining getting hit by a dozen small punches in a second would accelerate you to flying, without actually doing a vast amount of damage.

 

But your construct should still work.

[Hugh Neilson]

Bolo's construct is workable, in my view.  Alternatively, as it is 5e, can we simply use Damage Aura - anyone he comes into contact with is flung with 18 STR TK?  That brings it back to multiple move bys, and is more consistent with "I am the tornado".

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Since "No Range" means HtH Range, define it as always the hex directly in front of him.  So he moves along, and the tornado in front of him clears a path.  As GM, I'd say targets can make a Breakfall or Acrobatics roll to land on their feet; otherwise, they end up sitting on their butts or lying down on the job.

 

Have to add "mobile" to the AE to make that function.

[tombrown803]

17 hours ago, freakboy6117 said:

completely unrelated but the title made me picture a mental entangle/ego blast that traps the target in a nightmarish long-haul coach flight (screaming baby broken screen middle seat grandmother with Photo albums PLURAL!!!!!)

 

Don't forget someone kicking the back of your seat the entire time

[BoloOfEarth]

2 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

Have to add "mobile" to the AE to make that function.

 

OP mentions this is for 5E, which didn't have a "mobile" option on AoE. 

[Rebar]

On 7/23/2018 at 9:54 AM, Hugh Neilson said:

 

 

 

In any case, I echo the comments above - discuss the move with your GM.  Reasoning from effect, if the effect is not overpowered, it should not matter how it is achieved, or even whether it violates an AP cap.  If it is overpowered, the GM should reject it however it may be constructed.

 

I will.

 

But after batting the idea around for a while, I'm come to realize why it is hard to do. It's actually pretty powerful.

 

Imagine how my GM will feel if, in one phase, I've managed to send 3 or 4 of his agents - even spaced strategically apart - all flying several inches backwards, landing on their butts - weapons akimbo. That could be a pretty powerful game-changer in a combat.

 

I think that's why there's no such thing as a Multiple Move Through, and why Multiple Move By does so much less damage.

 

This may well be the very kind of mega-attack he's trying to discourage.

 

But I'll take it up with him.

[IndianaJoe3]

On 7/23/2018 at 6:15 PM, dsatow said:

Just to help emphasize my argument for the flight issue, here's how I would build the power.

 

3 Real Points: Flight 2m, AoE 2m(+1/4), Selective(+1/4), 0 end (+1/2), Usable as an Attack (+1 1/4).  6 Active points.  Lim: Only to fly away from PC (-1/4), Restrainable (-1/2)

 

I would also add Instant, which would keep the targets from moving further than the purchased amount of movement.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Quote

Imagine how my GM will feel if, in one phase, I've managed to send 3 or 4 of his agents - even spaced strategically apart - all flying several inches backwards, landing on their butts - weapons akimbo. That could be a pretty powerful game-changer in a combat.

 

As a GM I'd be amused.  Its no more destructive or disruptive than an AE flash attack or entangle.  Really powerful characters are less likely to be bothered by such an attack and agents pretty much exist to be tossed around like toys.

[Hugh Neilson]

14 hours ago, Rebar said:

I will.

 

But after batting the idea around for a while, I'm come to realize why it is hard to do. It's actually pretty powerful.

 

Imagine how my GM will feel if, in one phase, I've managed to send 3 or 4 of his agents - even spaced strategically apart - all flying several inches backwards, landing on their butts - weapons akimbo. That could be a pretty powerful game-changer in a combat.

 

I think that's why there's no such thing as a Multiple Move Through, and why Multiple Move By does so much less damage.

 

This may well be the very kind of mega-attack he's trying to discourage.

 

But I'll take it up with him.

 

9 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

 

As a GM I'd be amused.  Its no more destructive or disruptive than an AE flash attack or entangle.  Really powerful characters are less likely to be bothered by such an attack and agents pretty much exist to be tossed around like toys.

 

Remembering that, in 5e, AoE is a minimum of +1, the most he could have is a 4d6 Flash with a 2" radius.  That would not be selective, either.  That's not to say I would consider the effect overpowering, but having a significant impact on multiple targets on a 40 AP budget will  be pretty tough for most constructs.

 

But I think it should be compared to any other Damage Shield, Hand Attack or no range attack he could set up, and then run across the battlefield doing multiple movebys.  A 4d6 Sight Flash, no range damage shield would be pretty effective, and only cost END once per phase.  I'm starting to think that TK Damage Shield is the answer...

 

[Ninja-Bear]

On 7/24/2018 at 8:10 PM, Rebar said:

I will.

 

But after batting the idea around for a while, I'm come to realize why it is hard to do. It's actually pretty powerful.

 

Imagine how my GM will feel if, in one phase, I've managed to send 3 or 4 of his agents - even spaced strategically apart - all flying several inches backwards, landing on their butts - weapons akimbo. That could be a pretty powerful game-changer in a combat.

 

I think that's why there's no such thing as a Multiple Move Through, and why Multiple Move By does so much less damage.

 

This may well be the very kind of mega-attack he's trying to discourage.

 

But I'll take it up with him.

I was just going to mention something like this. I’ve come to a similar conclusion. Even if they’re just “agents”, knocking down say five at once is a big combat advantage.

[Hugh Neilson]

So is Blinding, Entangling, reducing CVs (Drain Dex in 5e), etc.  Anything that impairs a lot of opponents is powerful, provided there are a lot of opponents and the ability affects them.

[massey]

The problem is that 40 active points is just not very much at all.  You aren't going to get enough of any power to seriously inconvenience multiple agents.

 

I think technically you could do something like 1D6 Energy Blast, Autofire x20, Area Effect Radius, Personal Immunity, Zero End, No Range.  With an autofire attack, every hit after the first counts as +1 Body for knockback purposes.  Area Effect attacks scatter by a max of 1/2 the distance to the target.  Since the distance is zero, it doesn't scatter.  So you hit 20 times, and you're doing 20 Body - 2D6 for knockback.  It's a 2 hex radius, so it hits you and the surrounding hexes.  But you're personally immune so you're good.

 

29 Active Points, 19 Real Cost.  It's cheesy as can be, and your GM won't like it, but it's legal.

[dsatow]

On 7/24/2018 at 5:10 PM, Rebar said:

Imagine how my GM will feel if, in one phase, I've managed to send 3 or 4 of his agents - even spaced strategically apart - all flying several inches backwards, landing on their butts - weapons akimbo. That could be a pretty powerful game-changer in a combat.

 

To be honest, as a GM, I think heroes should be able to mow down agents.  In comics, you see Captain America or Superman take out dozens of agents in a single frame of the comic.  So I see agents not as the main combatants, but more as window dressing.  Its only lately that I've made agents a threat again by giving them attack powers at the level of the heroes.

 

The problem comes when the twiddly power is applied to main antagonists.  One shot-ing the villain is just anti-climatic and aggravating when you spend hours making villains and a plot for a game.  

[Hugh Neilson]

8 hours ago, massey said:

The problem is that 40 active points is just not very much at all.  You aren't going to get enough of any power to seriously inconvenience multiple agents.

 

2d6 Sight Flash, AoE Radius (+1), Selective (+1/2?), 6 doublings of radius? (+1 1/2) ...every agent on the battlefield is potentially blind.  Or drop that to four doublings (16" radius) and ad Accurate so you always target DCV 3.

 

Or, using Rebar's character who must hit each target:

 

3d6 Sight Flash, Damage Aura (+1/2), Constant (+1)  [or, if you subscribe to damage aura being +1/2 and becoming automatically constant, 5d6).

 

Or make it a 1 1/2 d6 (2 1/2d6) STR drain, END drain, DEX drain or INT drain. damage aura.  Not as great.

[massey]

3 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

2d6 Sight Flash, AoE Radius (+1), Selective (+1/2?), 6 doublings of radius? (+1 1/2) ...every agent on the battlefield is potentially blind.  Or drop that to four doublings (16" radius) and ad Accurate so you always target DCV 3.

 

 

They're potentially blind... for 2 segments.  Hopefully you don't attack on a phase where it wears off before they get to act.

[Hugh Neilson]

I bet I get more phases than they do - and agent SPD is fairly predictable.  A 16" radius means every agent on the battlefield is likely blind based on me hitting DCV 3 without difficulty.  That is a lot more than Rebar wants - he has to manage through multiple succesful attack rolls, even if his running is enough to target every agent on the map.  He also has to spend END for each target hit.  And his targets are knocked down - they still have full OCV, and they can stand back up.

 

How about 4d6 Flash, 0 END (+1/2), AoE Accurate (+1/2)?

 

Or 3d6 Flash, 0 END (+1/2), AoE Accurate (+1/2), LoS Range or no range modifier (+1/2)?

 

Or 4d6 Flash, 0 END (+1/2), LoS Range or no range modifier (+1/2)?

 

Now he can use a multiple attack (just like Multiple Move By) and hit everyone in the battle as easily as if he can run around and hit everyone in the battle.  The third one is pretty close - no range modifiers with move by or Flash; multiple attack penalties depending on how many targets; first miss means the rest miss.  Or go with 5d6 and drop 0 END - he has to spend STR END for every target he does the Multiple Move By on.

 

As noted above, make it a Damage Shield and he spends END only once for all targets, and it combines with the Multiple Move Bys quite naturally, plus he still gets the Move By damage, and possible knockback to boot.

 

Agents can stand up, or shoot while prone.  They can't rub their eyes to be "not blind".

 

The point is only that there are other constructs capable of a single phase effect that causes an issue for many agents, even with a 40 point AP ceiling, not that any of them take the agents out of the battle in a single shot.  For that, use an AoE Penetrating Killing Attack with extended Range that does not affect living beings. Oh, did all your foci break?

[Rebar]

7 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

As noted above, make it a Damage Shield and he spends END only once for all targets, and it combines with the Multiple Move Bys quite naturally, plus he still gets the Move By damage, and possible knockback to boot.

Tried that.

One of the nice things about the DS is that it more closely simulates what I'm looking for.

This is one of those powers that - due to its SFX  should have multiple simultaneous effects happening.

 

See, can also use it as a force-field. but it's not like he is switching between different techniques - when he's whirling, all whirling effects should happen simultaneously. If a brick tried to step in and punch him while he was whirling along, the brick would logically take damage too.

 

Unfortunately, DS, like the others, is prohibitively expensive for this campaign.

[IndianaJoe3]

Well, here's my take on the original idea. I assumed the character had a 20 STR, and that the power and the character's base STR had to, combined, stay under the 40 AP cap.

 

Whirlwind of Fury:  Double Knockback (+1/2), Area Of Effect (4m Line; +1/4), Selective (+1/4) for up to 20 Active Points of STR

 

 

[Hugh Neilson]

16 hours ago, Rebar said:

Tried that.

One of the nice things about the DS is that it more closely simulates what I'm looking for.

This is one of those powers that - due to its SFX  should have multiple simultaneous effects happening.

 

See, can also use it as a force-field. but it's not like he is switching between different techniques - when he's whirling, all whirling effects should happen simultaneously. If a brick tried to step in and punch him while he was whirling along, the brick would logically take damage too.

 

Unfortunately, DS, like the others, is prohibitively expensive for this campaign.

 

40 AP does not leave a lot of spare room.  I think you are playing 5e, so I don't have the rules handy.  My recollection is that Damage Shield was +1/2, so you could have 15 STR TK, Damage Shield (Limited to only toss the target in a random direction).  There was some question whether DS also required Constant for a further +1, which would allow 10 STR TK, still enough to toss a thug to the ground.  You'd also use the Move By, so getting a normal hit on the target as well.