Questions regarding running HERO Fantasy

[薔薇語]

I am gearing up to run a fantasy hero game in the next month. I was looking through my copy of Fantasy HERO and trying to think of how I want to run things and have thus come up with some questions I was hoping to get insight into. 

First, lets start with describing me and the situation. I have been playing with HERO for a very long time. Every time I have played, I have generally done so with fellow HEROphiles or at minimum a majority Herophile group. This will be my first time running for complete HERO newbies and two of whom are relatively RPG newbies. So i want start off with by making things as easy and intuitive as possible. So among the things that I want to streamline regard building up spells and unique character abilities, heavy tracking of END, and particular complexities regarding variations in weapons, etc. To that end, the following are some of my basic ideas:

--The Pitch-- 
While they are all relatively new (minus 1 DnD player), they are all familiar with DnD and such generic high-fantasy. So I am going to be pitching this as a High-Fantasy Game in a setting with familiar ties to DnD. A world full of thieves, priests, soldiers, sorcerers, druids and mages. Anything they can think of from DnD and so much more will be a possibility. That their general guideline should be to think of "low level" characters they wish they could play in DnD or characters they wish they could have play but for whom the rules of DnD were too restrictive to allow. I will even pitch a few "group" ideas to help get creative juices going and hopefully avoid the issue of Option-Paralyzation wherein given a blank page, folks struggle to think of ideas. 

--How to Help--

I am looking for some pitch ideas I can throw out there to help. Not ideas for individual characters per se but more for a group identity in which they could form a group identity. The one system the relative newbies have played with uses this "group identity" method to help form characters so it should be familiar to them. 

My ideas are: 
A coalition of [insert class] seeking vengeance for a lost master. Could be a group of monks, clerics, or mages, etc. 
The Freed Undead. A group of otherwise undead characters (or a linked monstrous group) that were once under the thrall of a necromancer or such but for some reason are now free and in search of a way to rid themselves of this curse / repent for their previous thralled deeds. 
The Anti-Magic Cult of warriors. A relatively secretive group that seeks to undo the deeds of (evil) mages. A group who specializes in a type of anti-magic style of combat and action or who otherwise only use magic for good. 
Circus Performers. A band of traveling circus performers who live by the creed, "leave every place a bit better than the way you found it". 
Mercs for Hire. Obvious. 
Any more? 

-------------
--Magic--

One of the things that can get hard for any new player is the variety of options for powers. I feel competent enough to build anything they want and hopefully the pitch and character brainstorming session should be enough to get us to a well rounded character. It is the issue of magic / character abilities that I worry about. One idea to help keep things simple on the page and achievable for the players that I got from Fantasy HERO was the idea of "Spells as Skills" wherein one buys the POWER SKILL as "Magic X-". This is their roll to use any of the magical spells they have bough. And the spells are listed like Martial Art Skills. A fireblast [RKA 1d6; 15active] would be cost/3 to get as a skill. Thus FireBlast would be 5 points. The second step in this would be to have PCs buy a "magic reserve" which would be an ENDurance Reserve an a Recovery rate based on some particular trigger (sleeping, meditating, etc). This would help PC spell users not drastically outpace their fellows and help keep the casters tracking of ENDurance simple-ish. 

--How to Help--

I have never tried anything like this before. So any feedback from folks who have tried the spells as skills or used End Reserves for magic essence pools would be appreciated. Has this help players maintain roughly balanced characters? If there is an issue, what has it been centered around and did you and your group generate any particular solutions. An example would be "the fraction rate of x/3 was too low and casters always had far more versatility. Make it x/5" or perhaps the reverse of that, or "Because all that was required was a few points for the Power Skill and Spell, absolutely everyone dipped a bit into caster and so niche protection was lost. Make all casting like Martial arts and require 10, 15, or 20 points to buy in at all". 

-------------
---Weapons--
It seems that as DnD has gone on, weapons have gotten more and more streemlined. Long gone are the 3.5 weapon catalogs where every possible variant of a real world weapon needed a mechanical change in game. I can appreciate this quite a bit. I think I am going to just create a super generic chart of Big, Medium, Small Weapons that each have a set damage value unless the Players spend points to get a much higher quality one. Has anyone tried this? Do you and your fellows enjoy the simplification? Given that one can still spend character points to get specialized mechanics. 

-------------

--Generic Advice--

Any Generic advice for bringing Fantasy HERO to life for a new group? 

La Rose. 
 

[Christopher R Taylor]

I advise using a small group of familiar spells pre-built for casters so they don't have to try to figure out their own powers and spells.  I'd also create blank template "classes" and races so players can start with them, then have x points to spend from a list of abilities for each (as in; this character can have ability A but not B).

[RDU Neil]

If they are truly new to Hero, and new to RPGs, character creation can be tough.

 

1) Ask them if they could describe the kind of fantasy character they want to play... you can build it for them... and show them how their character concepts are represented in the rules.

2) This helps them jump right in and see how their ideas are able to be translated into characters.

3) You get to shape their interpretations of Hero, so they inevitably build to your biases... always important for a GM to have players who fit a style.

4) You can teach them by saying, "After a couple sessions, we can talk about what you like, and don't about the characters, and we can tweak them so you learn how to make characters.

5) Or they can make a new character after they've seen how the game plays, from the ground up.

6) I think it would be a good idea to allow the players ideas about their characters to shape the world. If one of them wants to be all Avatar: Last Airbender... then now your world has elemental clans in it, or some such. If another wants to play a noble house, second daughter who loves to duel, then now a certain part of society is heavily shaped by dueling culture. Make their interests part of the game, and they'll be happy to learn the system.

 

Just my opinion, but game play and character dynamics first... system and process second.

[Norm]

Ideas for a Group:

A group that finished a multi-year stint in some country's military (army, King's/Queen's highway guard, etc) .  They are like a foreign legion which would allow for different races/builds.  The reason for the military gig was to get them the first level of citizen rights in the country.  Something like 'Latin Rights' in the Roman Empire.  See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_Rights

 

What Christopher and RDU Neil said above.  Espeically RDU Neil's numbers 4 and 5.  I did that when bringing new people to fantasy hero.  Only one or two people really want to drastically change their character on me.  I still let it happen and they kept all of their current experience points.

 

We kept the spells/powers to already published things (Fantasy Hero, HERO System Grimoire, etc) in the beginning to make things easier.  As above, if they wanted to tweak things later, it was easier to do it after they had some game sessions to see how things worked.

 

Not sure if it really helped, but I manually created sections in their character sheets that listed weapons (with STR bonuses), sectional armor, spells, etc to make things easier for them.  It was some work for me.  But once set up, was easily maintained.  I also ripped out all point values.  I did not want to worry them about all of the points.  They seemed to like the character sheets.  I attached some examples.

 

 

 

Glaive.HTML

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Jarlyn.HTML

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Edited August 2, 2018 by Norm
spelling

[archer]

For bringing a group together, if they’re wanting to play younger people, they could be cousins coming of age at roughly the same time. Or perhaps the offspring of a group of former adventurers.

 

 They could be coming together for an anniversary service commemorating some great victory or defeat, a funeral, or some family event. Their travels on the road could be the first adventure and their shared background would provide plot hooks for the future.

 

Perhaps inherenting personal rivalries, enmity from some organizations and gratitude from others. People could show up looking for help from the original heroes and have to settle for the kids.

[RDU Neil]

18 hours ago, archer said:

People could show up looking for help from the original heroes and have to settle for the kids.

 

I love this idea... especially if they didn't know their parents were the heroic types... suddenly they have a legacy to discover.

[Lucius]

 

My advice on the magic:

 

I have instituted a "mana pool" for all spellcasters (i.e. END Reserve.) How the END recovers does not have to be the same for all casters; some might need to meditate or to spend time in a suitable environment or perform certain kinds of actions etc. So a necromancer might get power back faster in a graveyard, or a pyromancer may need to light and tend a fire for a time.

 

I like the idea of using Requires a Skill Roll, but that involves a mandatory penalty based on Active Points. This has a few problems. For one you tell the player "You roll your Magic Skill to cast spells" but the actual number on the sheet by the Magic Skill is not the number to roll for ANY of the spells, and in fact, different spells have different numbers to roll based on that penalty. Further, I found the penalty to be crippling with many spells, meaning supposedly powerful wizards would frequently fizzle out when trying to use their awesome powers.

 

I put Requires a Skill Roll, NOT on the individual spells, but on the END itself. This means the actual Magic Skill is what is rolled in almost every case (unless a spell has a HUGE END cost) and if all spells require "mana" from that pool, you still have to make a Skill Roll for each casting.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Summon Palindromedary

[drunkonduty]

A classic for an adventuring group is working as agents of an organisation.

Knightly order; temple (3 in one: clerics, monk, and paladins), thieves' guild, mages' guild, ordinary craft guild (why not?) These also have built in quest givers. Quest givers is easier for new players who will, probably, have trouble working out what they want to do, or even knowing what they can do.

 

There's escaped prisoners. Naked and on the run is always good for a laugh.

 

The game I'm about to kick off has the PCs as survivors of a destroyed army.

 

As for character design. Keep it simple. Limit the player choices. Try and have a bunch of templates ready to use. One thing I found when I first started with HERO, and everyone else I know who plays HERO had the same initial feeling, is that the freedom of choice is so great that one doesn't know where to start. Templates give players a springboard for their own ideas.

 

But also inspire player choices. Give them a little world background. Cloud castles and dragon dogfights. Or an ancient city that has long been the centre of a world wide trade network whose basements and catacombs stretch down into the depths of the earth. Something to get the creative juices flowing.

 

Or, if you  haven't gotten as far as that, throw out a bunch of classic game types (thieves in the big city, knights on errantry, junior wizards at wizard school.)

 

Keep throwing out ideas and getting feedback until you have something that has the whole group excited. Obviously choosing a game style/setting also has the effect of limiting character choice, until it doesn't. Wizard school will have a lot of people playing wizards. Until someone wants to play a unionising house elf, or a groundskeeper who is a high school drop out. You get where I'm going.

 

For magic - I'm going to suggest that whatever you choose for a magic system, have the list of available magic spells already drawn up. If the choice of character archetype is daunting, the choice of what magic to choose is just overawing. (Actually this is an advantage of magic school - the players have a very limited set of spells to choose from at the start and you decide what new spells they get and when. Should let you  spread out the work over time.)

 

I like the idea of a magic END reserve with limited REC. For a high magic game it's a good way to put a limit on mages and thus allow non-mages to compete.

 

High fantasy magic is hard to do in HERO if you use the published grimoires. The spells are just too expensive. For a low fantasy feel they work fine.

 

General advice.

Everyone tells me that tracking END is hard. I don't see why. People have no trouble tracking hit points in DnD. This aint much different. To speed up play I suggest you get the players to do all the END tracking AFTER their turn.

 

eg:

GM: Character X is up.

Player X: I kick in the door with 15 STR, throw a fireball, and make a PRE attack. That's, erm, lemme see how much END...

GM: Worry about that later. Roll your STR damage to get the door open then make an attack roll. <things are resolved>

GM: Cool! Do your END now. Next character is Y.

 

I'd shy away from Multipowers and especially VPPs. The latter because they are literally power designing at the game table. MPS are conceptually  confusing to new players.

 

Fantasy Hero Basic.pdf

I can't help it, I'm going to upload my own fantasy hero homebrew. It's 6th ed. It's geared toward low fantasy. The most relevant parts for you are at the front in the character design section which has a bunch of mix and match templates for simple characters. The magic section could also be worth a read. None of it is yet play tested. I suspect that any spell that uses an adjustment power is too powerful as written and will probably need to be toned down a couple of Damage Classes. I also include some basic weapons and armour lists you might find useful. Otherwise it's a simplification of the main HERO rules.

 

 

 

[Cancer]

Years ago, I started a campaign for RPG noobs -- my kids and sister-in-law were three players, the fourth was my wife -- in HERO system.  I ended up melding into a combination of two familiar-to-my-kids flavors: anthropomorphic juvenile animals (different species), and faux mystical martial arts.  They were all initiates in the same order of monks.  Very limited and well-defined magic, lowish point totals, and I had considerable communication with all the players ahead of time so they all had "their" characters already created before the first table session, and some ideas about what those characters could do when the fights came.

 

I already had the game-world well developed (I was re-using a world I'd concocted long long before, even before I met my wife, and I knew none of them had any knowledge of it), which allowed me to reel off lots of bits of consistent world backstory without hesitation when they asked questions ... which kids and true RPG noobs *will* do.  The ability to bring in what feels like rich and consistent history was a strong positive for that group of players.

[eepjr24]

Group Identities:

 

A ragtag bunch of people who have all been wronged in some way by the same person / group / force. 

 

Prophesied - a witch / wizard / sage / mystic / holy warrior / spirit has reached out to each of the players because they are needed to fulfill the prophesy.

 

Secret society by proxy. The people who raised each of the players (parent, uncle, grandparent, foster parent, etc) were all part of a secret society. Their parents may or may not still be alive, but someone or something is now seeking to: wipe out all traces of the group or gather their offspring to fight a new threat to the land.

 

The slave / gladiator pits. Each of the players is involved with the gladiator / slave trade in some way, generally as victims of it. They might fight in the pits or heal the survivors or serve the master of the pit or merely have been recently caught and waiting to be sold at auction. Maybe there is even a slave bounty hunter seeking to right the wrongs he has caused or a slave merchant who has fallen from grace and seeks to hide their past. They stage an escape and ....

 

United by fire - Huge wildfires are raging the lands and driving many people to the areas that are unaffected (valleys with lakes, etc). As the survivors gather, groups of like minded individuals join forces to find a new home and hopefully what the cause of the fires is.

 

Pirates! There are only so many good travel routes from X to Y and when the players were travelling the are attacked by pirates and forced to defend the ship. Some are paying passengers, some might be working for their birth, others might be crew or even a stowaway.

 

Should get you started! ?

 

- E

Edited August 3, 2018 by eepjr24
Minor edits.

[eepjr24]

11 hours ago, drunkonduty said:

I'd shy away from Multipowers and especially VPPs. The latter because they are literally power designing at the game table. MPS are conceptually  confusing to new players.

I use MP's for some types of abilities. I just keep it easy and stick to all ultra slots for new players and use lockout if needed to keep it to 1 at a time (if a couple are high power and a couple are very low power).  With those restrictions, it's just: "Okay, you can only use one of these at a time, just like if they were individual weapons".

 

VPP's I allow for players who really need it (generally this turns out to be mages) but do not allow new power design except between adventures and they must be approved ahead of the session. Slots can only be swapped if they have a long rest period (generally a full night in a reasonably safe place).

 

- E

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah Multipowers can be actually much more simple for players than not, if they are built to only allow one power at a time.  That kind of thing makes sense to players instinctively: pick one from a list each phase.

[Brian Stanfield]

On 8/1/2018 at 12:49 AM, 薔薇語 said:

Any Generic advice for bringing Fantasy HERO to life for a new group? 

 

One idea that comes up frequently in other threads is that you may want to hide as much of the game jargon as possible. It also helps to have a stock set of spells to start with.

 

For instance, have a "session 0" where everyone gets together and organizes their party, and decides what their characters will be. You can start working with them on the character generation, perhaps let them do much of the work themselves. Do the finishing work for each of their characters, do all the number crunching for them, etc., before then next session.

 

Then you can create two character sheets: one with all the detailed builds and all the minutiae that may be confusing to them, and one that is as simple as possible, with very basic descriptions for the things that need explanation (fireball, 8d6 blast). They can use the simple sheets for beginning play, and then use the detailed sheet to see how things like a fireball spell are actually built (with all the advantages & limitations, active points and real cost, etc.). 

[Vondy]

On 8/2/2018 at 8:00 PM, Lucius said:

 

I like the idea of using Requires a Skill Roll, but that involves a mandatory penalty based on Active Points...

 

Only if you build the spell that way or decide its a campaign default. The book certainly assumes you will do it that way and sets it as the default, but you don't actually have to do it that way. I do skill based magic and never impose active point penalties to skills rolls. On the other hand, I do have a skill cap in my games (15-) in my games and do impose situational modifiers of up to +/- 4 for things like stress, insufficient time, missing components, fatigue, assistants, power foci, etc.

[Ninja-Bear]

I once ran a group of Dwarves. Each was a template with a different title. So the Fighter was called a Mauler, the thief was a Lockbane and the mage was a Runeforger. I just used the Keep on the Borderlands. However, the concept was that the Humans that ran the Keep hired the Dwarves to explore the surrounding ruins. The Dwarves came from their homeland to explore the ruins to see if it was suitable to relocate there. I dropped the KotB in the Western Shores and the Dwarves were looking to escape the Peaks of Dawn and resettle. I figured the old caves were part of an ancient Dwarven Hold that needed to be rediscovered. The Humans here would rather have Dwarf neighbors than Orcs attacking.

[Lucius]

12 hours ago, Vondy said:

 

Only if you build the spell that way or decide its a campaign default. The book certainly assumes you will do it that way and sets it as the default, but you don't actually have to do it that way. I do skill based magic and never impose active point penalties to skills rolls. On the other hand, I do have a skill cap in my games (15-) in my games and do impose situational modifiers of up to +/- 4 for things like stress, insufficient time, missing components, fatigue, assistants, power foci, etc.

 

 Not only is that the default, as far as I could see there was no option presented to have a Required Skill Roll that is not modified by Active Points. There are options to take a greater or lesser penalty but no option for NO penalty.

 

Of course you can do it, but doing so is going outside of Rules as Written.

 

There are times I'm quite prepared to ignore Rules as Written but if I see a way to get what I want and stay inside the rules I'll usually do so.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Now if you make a rule against palindromedaries I'm likely to just ignore it.

 

 

 

 

 

[Vondy]

1 hour ago, Lucius said:

Of course you can do it, but doing so is going outside of Rules as Written.

 

 

Do you mean the rules as presented in the Fantasy Hero genre book?

 

Because that's a genre book. Those are not rules as written. Those are rules as suggested.

 

THIS IS HERO!

 

There are no rules as written dictating how you create a magic system from scratch using the core rule-books.

 

I see no actual rules issue with deviating from the Fantasy Hero baseline to do away with the AP based penalties.

 

[eepjr24]

48 minutes ago, Vondy said:

I see no actual rules issue with deviating from the Fantasy Hero baseline to do away with the AP based penalties.

6e1, 391
 

Quote

A character cannot eliminate the Active Point penalty to a Skillbased Required Roll. (However, he could take an Unmodified roll of the same level and describe the special effect of the Limitation as “I’m using a Skill but I’m so good at it I don’t suffer an Active Point penalty.”)

 

So you could "fake it" by taking a 15- for -1/4 on each power and then have them required to buy a skill called "Magic" or whatever you like for how ever many points you like. Not exactly what you were talking about I don't think, but you can do it in RAW that way. You could even switch between the two, have them start out with Cantrips that are on the unmodified roll (because they have done it so many times it is rote) and other things have a -1 per 20 AP for familiar spells, -1 per 10 for less familiar, etc. They all could use the same number, just the limitation value would vary.

 

- E

[Vondy]

55 minutes ago, eepjr24 said:

6e1, 391
 

 

So you could "fake it" by taking a 15- for -1/4 on each power and then have them required to buy a skill called "Magic" or whatever you like for how ever many points you like. Not exactly what you were talking about I don't think, but you can do it in RAW that way. You could even switch between the two, have them start out with Cantrips that are on the unmodified roll (because they have done it so many times it is rote) and other things have a -1 per 20 AP for familiar spells, -1 per 10 for less familiar, etc. They all could use the same number, just the limitation value would vary.

 

- E

 

First, this assumes you are slapping "requires skill roll" onto a power. Second, it assumes you are buying spells as powers to begin with. It may be customary or recommended or orthodox to build spells as powers, but you don't have to do so. Instead, you can just implement a skill based magic system. No faking required. You don't need anyone's permission to do so. But, if fear of interpretation and deviation without designer sanction makes this seem far to taboo to bear, I shall also quote the rules:

 

"The GM could set up the magic system so that characters don’t pay Character Points for spells; they get them “for free” after buying certain Skills and/or Perks."

 

George Takei voice: "Oh My!" That's in the Advanced Player's Guide on page 190, by the way. Many of us have been doing it this way long before Steve got around to codifying it. There are write-ups for skill based magic on the boards. You can also find one on at Killer Shrike's website. I always do skill based magic and its really easy to do.

 

Example: I jot down "Fireball: Blast 6d6, Explosion, End [6]" but the player buys: Fireball 14- (7 Points).

 

I've found this simpler, faster, and easier to manage insofar as the following guidelines are observed:

• Spells must be researched, found, or learned from a master.
• Spells must be purchased individually. E.g., No "Fire Magic 14-"
• Spells are not characteristic based. You pay 3 points for an 11- roll and 2 points for each +1.
• Think really hard before allowing skill levels that affect more than one spell.
• Have a set of common modifiers for spell rolls. I've found up to +/-4 works well.

I hear you cry: "But what about really powerful spells?" 

 

You can include prerequisites for learning the spell. These could be specific spells, a certain number of spells from the same school, or a relevant background skill at a specific level. Another tack is to jack up the limitations in your write up. Make it time-consuming, expensive, and/or exhausting to cast. Require helpers. Or make the getting the focus ("material component") a quest in of itself. Who said knowing a spell meant it was convenient to cast? Balance issues solved. 

 

Maybe I'm just an old dinosaur who came up in the era of rulings over rules, but one of the things I love about Hero is that their are multiple correct ways of accomplishing the same thing in the rules. Another thing I love about it is that for all of Steve's legalese, you aren't locked into his personal design philosophy. It may be the default, but its not the exclusive "One True Hero Way."

 

Its like magic for a skilled GM. ?

 

[eepjr24]

18 minutes ago, Vondy said:

 

First, this assumes you are slapping "requires skill roll" onto a power. Second, it assumes you are buying spells as powers to begin with. It may be customary or recommended or orthodox to build spells as powers, but you don't have to do so. Instead, you can just implement a skill based magic system. No faking required. You don't need anyone's permission to do so. But, if fear of interpretation and deviation without designer sanction makes this seem far to taboo to bear, I shall also quote the rules:

 

"The GM could set up the magic system so that characters don’t pay Character Points for spells; they get them “for free” after buying certain Skills and/or Perks."

... <snip>

 

Its like magic for a skilled GM. ?

 

 

Obviously, you can do whatever you want, including deviating from the topic. I am well aware of skill based magic systems, I have designed several. But the topic at hand was getting rid of AP penalties for RSR. I outlined what RAW says. A GM can do whatever the heck they want in their game(s). I like to show the rules as a baseline, they have been played and tested for a number of years and the unbalanced combinations are well known quantities. In any case, I have said my piece, do as you will. ☮️

 

- E

 

 

[Vondy]

10 minutes ago, eepjr24 said:

 

Obviously, you can do whatever you want, including deviating from the topic. I am well aware of skill based magic systems, I have designed several. But the topic at hand was getting rid of AP penalties for RSR. I outlined what RAW says. A GM can do whatever the heck they want in their game(s). I like to show the rules as a baseline, they have been played and tested for a number of years and the unbalanced combinations are well known quantities. In any case, I have said my piece, do as you will. ☮️

 

- E

 

 

 

I always do.

[薔薇語]

Thanks for the great ideas everyone. There have been a number of good ideas on group options and pitch methods to help ease the process. I really appreciate these! I will be jotting down some of the ideas so I can present them when the time comes. 

As to the magic system ideas, I think that is a reasonable concern regarding AP penalties, Lucius. I was originally just going to have the Spellskills not have "RSR" on them in the build but rather house-rule that in order to do a bit of non-attack magic, one would need to succeed on a "magic" roll. Then allow players to adjust the difficulty in the standard ways of adjusting any skill difficulty - spending extra time, concentrating, having assistance, ample resources, etc. Thus out of combat even a relatively skill level could still achieve any particular spell's difficulty. For attack spells, especially in combat, I would just use the Combat values to determine success. I had also thought of using Mental-Combat-Value and reskinning it as "Magic-Combat-Value" to act as a small bridge against a sword master dipping into offensive magic and vice versa. 

As to the magic Builds I have now, I am just doing the standard build of a spell sans the RSR, looking a the Real Points and dividing by 3 to arrive at a skill cost that then requires a Magic Roll. Things seem to be going okay but so far is it just theory crafting and HeroDesigner building. The real test will be when players react to what is presented and play though it of course. 

I notice that Vondy put forward how he does magic. It seems as though there is a Platonic ideal of a Fire-Ball spell which characters must learn. Though study they learn of this one immutable spell (always 6d6) and gain greater master (skill increases). Is that a fair summation so far?

Something I was thinking of doing was having spells that can be increased. That is to say, there is no platonic ideal rather discrete forces that can be used in varying quantities. Thus a character could buy a Minor Fireball of 2d6RKA w/ magic roll and upon progression they could decide to increase their master of that spell (skill bonus for X spell) or test their limits and strengthen the spell (3d6RKA). I wouldn't have the PC buy yet another skill for "Average Fireball", rather increase the points spent on "Fireball". 

Is that system I described for myself particularly different from yours, Vondy, in the sense of 'leveling up' a magic spell or is my original analysis of a platonic ideal of fireball not quite right? 

When it comes to spells as skills in the Vondy method (individual Spell-Skills have individual rolls), are there any particular issues you have run into in game that I should keep an eye out for? Do the costs bog down casters? Is the fact that a spell only requires one individual skill tend to promote everyone dipping into the spell-pool? And as a kind of meta-aside, what general point frame do you work on to produce characters? Do you also allow any frameworks? 

Lucius, you seemed to have some experience in this realm, so I was wondering if you could also  expand more upon that and what the system was like for you. I know you mentioned the one obvious issue you had, but where there any others? 

La Rose. 

[Ninja-Bear]

To the OP what magic sources do you have?

[薔薇語]

Ninja Bear: What do you mean? As in Arcane, Divine, ect? At the moment, all of the above would be my approach. 

 

La Rose. 

 

 

[Ninja-Bear]

2 hours ago, 薔薇語 said:

Ninja Bear: What do you mean? As in Arcane, Divine, ect? At the moment, all of the above would be my approach. 

 

La Rose. 

 

 

Sorry La Rose. What I meant was do you have any Hero books that even have a sample of magic spells which you can steal from?