Multiform, Duplication, Bases, Vehicles, etc. and Rounding

[Surrealone]

Keeping this at its absolute simplest, math-wise, 5 points' worth of Duplication, Multiform, a Base/Vehicle, etc. that has no limitations costs 1 CP, right?  If I recall correctly, rounding should fall in the character's favour, meaning 7 points' worth of such things (sans limitations) should also cost 1 CP.  Yet in Hero Designer, 7 points' worth of these things costs 2 CP.  The issue isn't just with Real Cost, but also with Active Cost … which I would think relevant for situations like Multiform inside of a Multipower (which is legal per RAW as Multiform is a Standard Power as of 5th Edition).

 

i.e. The aforementioned 1/5-based purchases appear to ignore rounding rules. Is this an oversight, or is there some specific rule pertaining to these 1/5-based purchases that HD is following that I have overlooked?  (If the latter, please cite the relevant RAW, if you would be so kind … because I've looked and can't find it.)

 

Thanks in advance for the clarification (either way)!

 

 

[Simon]

Rounding of points is not in the character's favor -- you don't get something for nothing. Every five points of Multiform (for example) costs 1 point, regardless of how many you actually use. 1-5 points of Multiform costs 1 point. 6-10 points of Multiform costs 2 points.  And so on.  

[Surrealone]

Technically It's not something for nothing. Instead, it's something for the same cost as a little less of it … due to rounding. (i.e. You still pay.)

Can you point me to RAW exempting the 1/5-based powers from the usual rounding rules, please -- since your response appears to indicate such an exemption?

[Simon]

Steve Long.

[Simon]

Also, if it helps, it is very much "something for nothing".  You're looking to get a "partial level" in Multiform for free.  There are no partial levels.  SPD is the only ability that comes close.  You want 1 level in Multiform?  You pay 1 point and get 1-5 points' worth.  You want 2 levels?  You pay 2 points and get 6-10 points' worth.  

[Surrealone]

Again, technically, paying 1 pt is paying more than nothing … as is 2 points.  So it isn't something for nothing, it is, again, something for the same cost as a little less of it.

 

Example:
Someone spends 100 CP on a 500pt multiform.  Similarly, someone spends 100 CP on a 502pt multiform.  Both pay (more than nothing, so this is NOT a case of something for nothing), but because of rounding they pay the same.

 

The above example is completely in keeping with 6e1 p12, which states (red emphasis added by me):
Character Points & Rounding
In the HERO System, you use Character Points (see below) to purchase all of your character’s abilities and powers. Sometimes this requires calculations involving division or multiplication. Examples include determining the Active Point
cost of a power to which you apply an Advantage, the Real Point cost of a power to which you apply a Limitation, a character’s DEX Roll, and the Endurance (END) cost of a power.

When you calculate the cost of something using division or multiplication, always round off to the next whole number in favor of the Player Character (unless a specific rule indicates otherwise). Numbers from .1 to .4 round down;
numbers from .6 to .9 round up; and .5 rounds up or down depending upon what’s best for the character. You only have to round to one decimal place (unless the GM requires more precise rounding).

 

Hero Designer appears not to be following that bit of RAW when it comes to multiform, duplication, bases, vehicles, and the like. Thus, I am looking for the 'specific rule [that] indicates otherwise'.  Again, I ask you to point me to RAW (actual, written RAW) that exempts/precludes the cited rule above from applying.  If it came from Steve Long (as you say) then I would expect it to be in 6e1/2 … or in his recently posted errata.  Barring the existence (today, as of the time of this writing) of a specific rule indicating otherwise in either of those places (or a GM house rule specific to a given game, which would also count), it's not in actual RAW and we appear to have a rounding problem in HD due to it not respecting the rounding RAW from 6e1 p12 for the aforementioned things.

 

Note:

• Vehicle and Base costing states (on 6e1 p107): A character pays 1 Character Point for each 5 Character Points used to build the Vehicle or Base
• Duplication's cost states (on 6e1 p198): 1 Character Point per 5 Character Points in the base character
• Multiform's cost states (on 6e1 p266): 1 Character Point for every 5 Character Points in the most expensive form
• All of the above involve division in the form of: [Points Used to Build Vehicle/Base/Duplicate/Multifom] / 5 … nd none of these RAW citations state 1 CP per 1-5 pts

 

Thus, if HD is following RAW, I must have missed the RAW it's following and I'd like you to point me to it for my own edification.  Barring that, it deviates from RAW … in a way that costs (at most) 1 CP more than it should for certain builds … but a CP is a CP.

[unclevlad]

No, there's no HD problem.  You're asking to buy a "fractional die" if this was, say, Blast.  No.  1 CP gets you 5 character points...that doesn't reverse.  The rounding rules don't apply because there is no rounding to be done.  Multiplication and division happen with Advantages and Limitations, not with basic purchase cost.  You can't buy "3 build points" worth of Duplication.  

 

The rule is there.  6E1, p. 40.  Buying less than the full amount.

[Surrealone]

Unclevlad,

I looked at the RAW for buying less than the full amount, but that rule appears only to set a minimum cost  i.e. I believe the RAW you cited would be relevant if I were buying only 2 pts of Multiform, for example -- in which case it would cost the minimum 1 CP.  But my example is about buying 502 pts of Multiform …in which case the minimum cost is more than satisified.  Also, as noted in my edit, above, Multiform's cost in RAW explicity states it's 1 CP per 5 pts (which mathematically entails Total Multiform Pts divided by 5 to compute the CP cost).

 

For the avoidance of doubt, 6e1 p40 states (red emphasis added by me):
BUYING LESS THAN THE FULL AMOUNT
Some Characteristics and other game elements cost 1 Character Point for a large amount of something, such as 1 Character Point per +5 END or 1 Character point for +2m of movement. A character can choose to buy less than the indicated amount if he wants, but because the minimum cost of anything in the HERO System is 1 Character Point, he still pays the full cost. For example, a character who wants just +3 END still pays 1 Character Point for it.

 

As for your Blast comparison, 5 CP gets me one die, but I have a means to buy +1 and even half dice, so I don't think it's a fair/valid comparison because there are ways to buy less than 5pts of Blast.

[Simon]

HD is following the rules of the system, as you have been told multiple times.

 

If you would like to have a discussion about changing those rules, you're talking to the wrong guy - you want Steve Long.

 

It would have been MUCH easier to code HD to round everything (even non-calculations like base points) the same way...even with the utterly nonsensical rounding rules that the system uses (1.49999 "rounds" to 1.4 which rounds to 1).  But that's not how the system works and not how Steve has defined it.

[unclevlad]

12 minutes ago, Surrealone said:

But my example is about buying 502 pts of Multiform …in which case the minimum cost is more than satisified.  Also, as noted in my edit, above, Multiform's cost in RAW explicity states it's 1 CP per 5 pts (which mathematically entails Total Cost divided by 5 to compute the CP cost).

 

 

The RULE for Multiform is 1 CP per 5 points.  The rule IS NOT divide the cost by 5.  The statements ARE NOT equivalent BECAUSE of the rounding rule.  The statement in the rule says that the rounding DOES NOT APPLY because there is no division involved by the statement of the rule.

 

[Simon]

Also, you may want to read you END example a bit more carefully.  If you only want +2 END you still pay 1 point, not 2/5 of a point.  If you want +6 END, you pay 2 ponts.

[unclevlad]

And STUN as well.

4 hours ago, Simon said:

Also, you may want to read you END example a bit more carefully.  If you only want +2 END you still pay 1 point, not 2/5 of a point.  If you want +6 END, you pay 2 ponts.