If the Japanese won World War 2 how would the United States be changed?

[assault]

16 minutes ago, archer said:

 

I took the question to be in the context of a universe which has super-powered beings running around in it.

 

Which of course changes things completely.  The question becomes: "what changes do you want, and what magico-technobabble is necessary to justify it?"

[archer]

6 minutes ago, assault said:

 

Which of course changes things completely.  The question becomes: "what changes do you want, and what magico-technobabble is necessary to justify it?"

 

I thought I did a good job of answering the question in my original post in this thread and that alternate world of superheroes incorporated many of the suggestions that other people brought up in subsequent posts. Adding super-powers doesn't have to mean that you have to jettison all your sense of how history progresses from one era into the next.

[unclevlad]

If you postulate supers, then you have to start talking their powers, and when they start coming on-scene.  

 

That said, I think it's largely absurd to think that Japan with supers, can still conquer the US, much less do that while keeping East Asia under their thumb.

[assault]

A lot depends on what the Japanese superweapons did to the US.

 

In other words, design for effect applies here just like it does while building characters.

[unclevlad]

2 minutes ago, assault said:

A lot depends on what the Japanese superweapons did to the US.

 

In other words, design for effect applies here just like it does while building characters.

 

But Japan is *massively* more vulnerable to this than the US.  Remember something:  the land area of Japan is smaller than the state of California alone.

[assault]

But the US didn't have the monkey bomb.

 

The survivors haven't managed to build their own.

[unclevlad]

 

1 minute ago, assault said:

But the US didn't have the monkey bomb.

 

The survivors haven't managed to build their own.

 

 

Not plausible at all.  Look at geography, look at the population distribution at the time.  Fine, they decimate California;  so what?  There was nothing of strategic importance in California.  There's not even that many people...only about 5% of the total US population.  So what gets achieved?  The US is BLOODY FREAKING HUGE as a country.  And at this time, concentrated on the East Coast.  

 

And superweapons of this level, is just not genre either.  We're talking Golden Age, so 300, and built with straightforward powers.  Plus, this requires there's no US heroes to respond.

[assault]

Dismissing Japanese (mad) Science?

 

No wonder the US lost the war.

[unclevlad]

And actually......

 

If you really insist on Japan pulling out the war...at least to the point of occupying the West Coast...

 

Read Philip K. Dick's The Man in the High Castle.  This is the premise of the book...that Germany and Japan won.  It only progresses forward to when it was written (early 60s).  If we try to push forward all the way to today.......lots and lots of monitoring.  The net's there but HIGHLY restricted.

[Cassandra]

14 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

And actually......

 

If you really insist on Japan pulling out the war...at least to the point of occupying the West Coast...

 

Read Philip K. Dick's The Man in the High Castle.  This is the premise of the book...that Germany and Japan won.  It only progresses forward to when it was written (early 60s).  If we try to push forward all the way to today.......lots and lots of monitoring.  The net's there but HIGHLY restricted.

 

Germany and Japan won because Zagara successfully assassinated President-Elect Franklin Roosevelt.  Presidents John Nance Garner and John Bricker failed to pull the U.S. out of the Depression, and stayed out of the European and Pacific Wars allowing Japan and Germany to take over the rest of the World.  With those resources and a large military the Axis then took over the United States by 1947.

 

William Overgard's The Divide had Hitler come to power early allowing Germany to develop Tiger Tanks and Jet Fighters which they shared with Japan.  Germany overran Russia, and Japan conquered China.  Burton K. Wheeler was elected President and kept America out of the war and England surrendered after it was bombarded by V-2s.  Japan destroys the Pacific Fleet at Pearl Harbor on Dec 7, 1941, and invades the Hawaii 10 days later.  A month after that they land in California, and Patton's Lee and Stuart tank Divisions are destroyed by Japanese Tiger Tanks at China Lake.  After that the West was lost, and Germany invaded the East Coast, and in 1946 President Wheeler surrenders the United States.

[unclevlad]

Those scenarios are more plausible.  The further back you make the core divergence, the better the odds.  I've read High Castle, but not The Divide.  High Castle actually has Japan controlling just the west...IIRC not even all the way to the Rockies.  Germany has the east coast plus.  The midwest is a buffer.  Mind, I still don't believe it, simply because controlling territory is much harder than people think, and technology is nowhere near the overarching solution it's believed to be.  Viet Nam, Afghanistan, and Iran ALL prove that.

 

Overgard's timeline makes little sense to me, but I haven't read it.  I also think it's got more holes in it, militarily.

 

There's a synopsis on wikipedia about Japan's policies in the US, from High Castle.  But it's only set in the early 60's too.  There's 50 more years to project forward.  Surviving and newly developing supers can congregate in the midwest.  Not hard to see a seriously ugly resistance movement forming.  From there, tho, any outcome's possible.

[薔薇語]

So many have already pointed out some of the extreme troubles with Imperial Japan, as it actually was in the 30s and 40s taking over the US in a realistic fashion. Be it the fact they'd be trying to do two extreme land wars in both mainland China and then the US plus need to maintain unquestioned trade dominance in the Pacific, there is no way for them to execute such a goal. Even their early war aims against the US were more retaliation for US embargoes and a desire to merely push out the US from the Pacific by displaying enough early force to cripple US expeditions into the South-East Asian parts of the Pacific wherein they could restock, regroup, and push out at far more unpredictable locations. A US force lacking Midway and Hawaii would find themselves trying to enter the Pacific theater through only a handful of very well guarded routes. 

Beyond all of that, one has to contend with the fact that the Imperial State was barely holding itself together even while all they were doing was winning in Korea and Manchuria. Countless officers attempted to kill high ranking politicians and even the Prime Minister. The top generals had essentially no direct control over their cores in the outer provinces. Politicians were scared into subservience by threats of violence, public sympathies that were extra strong when they were doing well, and the classic issue of looking one's constituency into the eyes as you tell them you will abandon all the lands their sons and brothers died to secure. Even the Emperor was only nominally in control in a very classically Japanese manner. The system was destined to break in that form regardless of their successes. In the real world there is no set of foreseable outcomes where Imperial Japan continues in any form we'd recognize for much longer than it already did. 

So, if we accept that perhaps the path of Japan from post WW1 was more or less fixed even if we change the details, why not completely change the past? There was, even still post Pearl Harbor, and idea popular with some politicians to create a Co-Prosperity Sphere in Asia wherein Japan essentially unites the Asian populous behind a single banner. Let's say that there were a number of True Believers in this in the ranks of Japanese and non-Communite Chinese. These Japanese Metas were moved by the plights of the Colonized Asians and move to protect the politicians of this ilk. Perhaps these same Metas were on the front lines with some of the early Korean and Manchurian successes and thus hold a great deal of respect in the public's imagination. Likewise, the various army purges of these separatists were a decade earlier and far more successful. 

Now what we have done is set up the groundwork for a true world power alliance in Asia. The Japanese are still spooked by the downfall of Tsarist Russian and fear the spread of international communism. They move to work WITH Chiang Kai Shek to subdue the communists in the Chinese region and help arm separatist movements in India and IndoChina. These two powers will be able to create manageable puppet states in current Bangladesh, unite with Siam, and carve out Indo-China for the Chinese and Thais while claiming the southern tip of Malaysia and the islands for Japan. Japan, being a leader in Military Strategy, Technology, and a strong manufacturing base would be able to assume a more managerial role, ala Great Briton in India / Asia, A war in which the larger Asian continent is consolidated, unified, or otherwise paralyzed wouldn't be as concerned with US embargoes. 

Without Pearl Harbor, the US is far less likely to enter any war. Without the manpower of India, crippled trade routes from Asia (no rubber, steal, tungsten, etc), Great Briton would find it much harder to hold on. Perhaps we even concede that some of the One Punch KOs against Russia landed with more effect as Russia tries to secure its Chinese/Manchurian boarder allows Nazi Germany to work against the UK more directly. Maybe the UK falls, maybe it doesn't. But certainly they are broken in manpower, resources, and spirit enough to sign an uneasy peace. The US, which has been relying on War manufacturing and Ally Bonds gets involved too late to save the War for the Allies. The Anti-FDR movements and communist movements takes hold in the US and it fractures into a new civil war. Germans, Italians, Japanese, and Mexican forces all rush to pick a side and create a new puppet. The Japanese, unlike all the others actually have experience in effective puppet management and are able to gain strong East Coast ties using the rockies and deserts as a natural wall. Now you have an American region with all its fractured culture under the influence of Japan without the direct control. To get an idea for how this might actually look in practice, read up on how Both Korea, Manchuria, and Taiwan  or even Okinawa were administered. While colonization is never a pretty thing, there was usually a lot of support for Japanese management; things ran on time, Japanese schools were high class (many subjugated folks tried to send their kids to the Japanese system schools because of the prestige). 

If you want to have a post-war cultural revolution akin to the US, it could be in a similar form wherein the new generation actually embraces in a non-cynical manner the nations of the Co-Prosperity Sphere and push the military and politicians to more fully adhere ot its non-colonial ideals (i.e., stop training soldiers how to kill by using live Chinese prisoners, etc). 

Those are, of course, just my thoughts. 

La Rose. 

[Cassandra]

At Board Game Geek there is a downloadable PDF for the alternate history of Tomorrow The World.  It's a board game where in 1948 World War Three is fought between Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan three years after they divided the World.

 

[death tribble]

July the 4th would no longer be celebrated. Independence Day might be seen as dangerous to the ruling Japanese.

[assault]

Bits of the (former) US might be virtual fiefdoms for the supervillains that won the war for Japan (and/or their successors). It's quite likely that some of them would be in conflict.

[Cassandra]

On ‎8‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 12:00 PM, Cassandra said:

At Board Game Geek there is a downloadable PDF for the alternate history of Tomorrow The World.  It's a board game where in 1948 World War Three is fought between Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan three years after they divided the World.

 

 

In the Tomorrow The World History after the German Invasion of the Easter U.S. and the assassination of the President, Vice President, and their replacement by a pro-Axis President, the Western States made a treaty with Japan and allowed it's armies occupation.

[unclevlad]

I like the notion of a Co-Prosperity Sphere coming to dominate all of eastern Asia, and Japan taking the US role as the dominant military and cultural power.  

 

If we're altering things there, then let's also tweak Europe.  Hitler rises;  everything through the fall of France goes as it did.  The big change:  Hitler gets assassinated in summer 1940.  There were numerous attempts to do so throughout.  If Hitler's taken out, then the Blitz doesn't happen, and the invasion of Russia probably doesn't happen.  That still leaves Stalin under considerable pressure;  Germany is much the stronger so it's not a real partnership, and Japina is squeezing on the eastern side.  Good chance, IMO, Stalin is toppled.  Mussolini loses German support and goes down as well.  Germanly largely leaves Spain and Italy alone;  on their own, they're very much secondary.  And Britain is now isolated.

 

As La Rose noted, the US never gets into the war.  We don't need to assassinate Roosevelt;  Hitler's assassination cools Europe enough so there's no strong argument for him to win in 1940.  America crawls back into its shell, and its recovery from the Depression takes longer.  (Wikipedia article on the Depression shows unemployment in 1940 was still 15%.)  

 

Over the course of the next 20-30 years...I think Russia collapses from the pressure.  By 1990 at the latest, they're done...splintered.  

 

The long term impact, tho, is that Germany inherits the mantle of the USSR as the Cold War opponent.  Japina...isn't necessarily liked but the US isn't gonna buck them.  Japanese and/or Mandarin become the dominant languages, and the Co-Prosperity currency becomes the de facto standard, rather than the dollar. 

 

 

[unclevlad]

Hmmm.  Thinking on this a bit further...

 

The US becomes more racist as a result, through the 50s, as Japinese ascension impinges on the remnants of Manifest Destiny.  The pressure on the white majority requires an outlet...the Commies are controlled, moving against the Chinks and Nips doesn't seem so wise...so what's left?  The civil rights movement is *much* more violent.  This creates another major branching point...how does this play out?

 

a)  uneasy reconciliation

b)  African-Americans follow the American Indians into a path of isolation

c)  a 2nd Civil War

 

The last is one where Japina might move.  Occupy the West Coast to protect the children of its heritage.  In this scenario...that could work.  The US is self-destructing and weak, and hey, normal people *may* accept them if they can keep the violence away.

 

EDIT:  trying to figure if the US survives intact.  I'm thinking not.  The first departure...Texas.  Possibly New Mexico with them.  They have the size, the resources, and the attitude.  After that, things could go many different ways.  California could follow, for all the same reasons.  Arizona's next...they're isolated too much to say in the US.  Oregon and Washington could create another pairing.  Japina can probably stand down if all this happens.  They don't even need to run the West Coast as client states;  the West Coast will be their partners anyway.  

 

Oof.  Silicon Valley doesn't get populated by East Coast emigres...but Japinese ones.  Google is a joint California-Japina company.

[bubba smith]

there would be more Gojira movies than Godzlla  movies

[Hugh Neilson]

20 hours ago, unclevlad said:

Hmmm.  Thinking on this a bit further...

 

The US becomes more racist as a result, through the 50s, as Japinese ascension impinges on the remnants of Manifest Destiny.  The pressure on the white majority requires an outlet...the Commies are controlled, moving against the Chinks and Nips doesn't seem so wise...so what's left?  The civil rights movement is *much* more violent.  This creates another major branching point...how does this play out?

 

a)  uneasy reconciliation

b)  African-Americans follow the American Indians into a path of isolation

c)  a 2nd Civil War

 

It also seems likely that the combination of authoritarianism in Europe and Asia and the US attitudes from the war (not the reconciliation of the post-war period, but continued hostility, anger and fear) exacerbate racism, rather than fostering a continued move to increased inclusivity.  As a possible fine tuner, what if racism against African and Latino descent is reduced (Africa and the Americas are the parts of the world not yet dominated by the Axis powers), channeling into increased discrimination against those of Asian and even recent European ancestry?

[unclevlad]

1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

It also seems likely that the combination of authoritarianism in Europe and Asia and the US attitudes from the war (not the reconciliation of the post-war period, but continued hostility, anger and fear) exacerbate racism, rather than fostering a continued move to increased inclusivity.  As a possible fine tuner, what if racism against African and Latino descent is reduced (Africa and the Americas are the parts of the world not yet dominated by the Axis powers), channeling into increased discrimination against those of Asian and even recent European ancestry?

 

The scenario I'm posing has the US completely sitting out events in Europe and the Pacific...even if the Philippines is taken.  That said, the incarceration of the Japanese on the West Coast did happen, and there was quite strong anti-German sentiment...LOTS of families changed names, as I understand it, to avoid being tarred by the Germanic brush.  So that's plausible too.  But move forward to the 50s, and I think the deeply-rooted prejudice is going to be fanned once more.    

That said, hey...all of the above.  Northeast and Great Lakes (Milwaukee was the beer capital of the country for a reason)...Germanic.  West Coast...Japanese.  South...blacks.  Plenty to start, if not a full-on civil war, an ongoing cycle of violence, riots, and distrust that fractures any bonds.  That's the climate where Japina can intervene in a "peacekeeper" or "protectionist" role...not the conquering role...and reprisals will be impractical.

[RDU Neil]

2 hours ago, unclevlad said:

 

The scenario I'm posing has the US completely sitting out events in Europe and the Pacific...even if the Philippines is taken.  That said, the incarceration of the Japanese on the West Coast did happen, and there was quite strong anti-German sentiment...LOTS of families changed names, as I understand it, to avoid being tarred by the Germanic brush.  So that's plausible too.  But move forward to the 50s, and I think the deeply-rooted prejudice is going to be fanned once more.    

That said, hey...all of the above.  Northeast and Great Lakes (Milwaukee was the beer capital of the country for a reason)...Germanic.  West Coast...Japanese.  South...blacks.  Plenty to start, if not a full-on civil war, an ongoing cycle of violence, riots, and distrust that fractures any bonds.  That's the climate where Japina can intervene in a "peacekeeper" or "protectionist" role...not the conquering role...and reprisals will be impractical.

 

I'd be fascinated by the narrower discussion of how you think a "non-post war" American South would facilitate the subjugated blacks of the American South in the 50s of actually wresting social control from the white slave-owner power base that has traditionally been in charge. I'm not saying it couldn't happen, but I'd say that a fracturing America would more likely end up in a Neo Confederacy of sorts. (Also, I think a '50s era ceding Texas would almost immediately be at war with Mexico and that would be a complex mess (with other parts of the previous US siding with Mexico, etc.)

 

Japanese win is, to me, much less interesting than this fascinating alternative "Broken America" that results because of the Japanese win.

[unclevlad]

I don't offhand have a way that the blacks would pull it off, per se.  I was running through potential conclusions in my head, and...well, something like South Africa?  Maybe?  OK, put it down.  Note that I didn't dwell on it.

 

BUT...ok, one path.  The Nazis were even MORE racist.  The upsurge in violence in the South might be countered by shaming...this is Nazi behavior.  I'm painting the Germans as 50's vintage Russia-level villains at least, so this could be a basis for damping down American racism and possibly leading to a detente in the South.  In this construction, it's reasonable to play up the anti-German sentiment at least, and potentially broaden it to much of central Europe.  Note that I'm leaning away from too much overt, aggressive anti-Asian prejudices, as the stronger that is, the more difficult it is to justify a successful "peacekeeping" mission on the West Coast.

 

The fracture I like the most, from the standpoint of supporting a Japinese intervention that can be in place for an extended period...

 

--the South at war with itself

--Texas splits;  whether they bother to go to war with Mexico or not.  Texas won't give a damn about California one way or the other, I'd think.

--the East Coast caught up in a Nazi-based McCarthy-level panic that shows no sign of letting up

--the Midwest is 100% absolutely bugnuts isolationist and non-interventionalist...in fact, the midwest states might even favor taking back more power from such a fractured central government.  And of course, Utah would probably *LOVE* that!  It might well become theocratic in all but name.

 

No one cares about the northern plains or mountain states.  No populace, no power, at least initially.  I was thinking, hmm...maybe East Coasters would flee into Nevada or Arizona, kinda as they do now, albeit for different reasons.  Well, here...those states might become rather less inclined to accept the Snow Belters.

[unclevlad]

Ewwww....

If the Japinese gain the toehold....we can give Las Vegas a big problem.  Mafia vs. Yakusa.

[bubba smith]

• kaeate may become more poplar