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New Power: Quasi Solid


unclevlad
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13 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

It really is simply putting the right terms into Google.  Sometimes you take a punt on terms you think will throw up the right hits on the first page or two.  I guess my punts are decent. ?

 

4 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

Better than most, I would thnk.

The power is called Google-Fu and I believe it costs 3 points.

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First off, why should this apply to a specific movement type?  If I can turn into sand, I should be able to flow through barriers, regardless of movement type.  Removing that link also removes the question of whether limitations also reduce the cost of the movement power itself.

 

This was part of trying to balance things out cost/benefit but I don't have my books available so I going off of memory. I forgot how much Desolid cost. However, I've always thought Desolid (isn't it a stop or warning power?) was underpriced (when simply used for movement and nothing else) since it basically gives you immunity to your average attack while moving through things. But that's just me. If we use as basis (presuming it's not underpriced) then yes it seems off. I originally had it affect all movement powers by default. Going back to that is no problem really, just a matter of cost vs benefit which as you know am not the best at evaluating.

 

 

Feels like your writeup was a solid start, capturing the variables we want the power to have, and the ones we think should impact the cost.  Now it’s just fine tuning.

 

 

 

Feels like we have a decent base cost at 20, and No Split becomes part of other limitations.

 

 

 

Viscosity:  My first thought was “can I lower the penalty by 1 phase if I reduce the limitation?  But why do we need this limitation at all when we could simply apply Extra Time to the situations where time will be increased?  That one will be complex to math out if it scales based on the size of the openings, but Extra Time should reasonably form the baseline.  Maybe Extra Time is taken at full value, but reduced one time increment for each stage on the Porosity chart before the first delay kicks in, or reduced two time increments if the character can split.

 

I based the limitation value and phase based on the first level of Porosity (1/4 the character height or 50 cm for Humans). The idea is simply allow for the concept of the smaller the opening the longer it takes to move through. I didn't want to use the base Extra Time since it scales up too quickly and would make going through smaller openings pretty useless with just a few levels even with your modifications. I wanted a more linear progression in the amount of time required. But I don't have my books available so I could be wrong.

 

 

So, if it will take me a full turn or so (5 SPD, -1 1/2 for Visc + 4 phases), why not make it a minute?  That’s 20 more phases, so now it’s -6 1/2?  I think Extra Time has it right that there is a point where more time needs to be a lot longer to be more limiting.

 

 

 

I’d say at base level, you move full movement through the obstacle (basically ignoring it as far as movement is concerned). 

 

 

 

You want it to delay movement a bit?  I would suggest Full Phase (-1/2) should mean you get a half move that takes a full phase (like an attack which would normally take a half phase now requiring a full phase).

 

 

 

Slower still?  Extra Phase is -3/4 and Full Turn is -1 1/4.  Maybe 2 extra phases could be -1.  Once we hit a full turn, will you use this in combat?  I doubt it, so moving to the slower pace of the time chart (-1 ½ for a minute, -2 for 5 minutes, etc.) feels reasonable to me.

 

 

 

Note that we can also have Sandman require, say, a minute to get his sandy body into that 1 cm pipe, after which he can move at full speed through the pipe (Extra Time, 1 minute, Only to Activate, -3/4), which adds an option your model lacks at present.

 

 

 

Is this where “no split” belongs?  My gut feel is no, as discussed below, although it could impact how often Limited Time (only below certain sizes) kicks in.

 

 

Porosity:  The description needs to start with what a normal human could squeeze through.  He could squeeze through smaller spaces with Contortionist.  50 cm at minimal speed, (1 meter) without penalty seems reasonable (50 cm being about shoulder width, the most significant constraint) then a big limitation for only being able to move full speed through 50 cm seems reasonable.  But he already has the ability to split, which is big.  Losing the ability to split should increase the limitation considerably.

 

 

I’d say the power is highly limited if it just allows him to bypass 50 cm, no split, barriers at full speed instead of squeezing through, so that should be -2.  What if 50 cm were -1, and “cannot split” doubled the porosity limitation?

 

Yes, I would agree with your analysis. The rest is simply examples or how the chart is presented. I'll have to play around with numbers to see what makes sense.

 

 

This is an area where examples of what the character can be passed through would really help.  It seems a lot more limiting to go from “50 cm opening or 25% of space is blocked” to “25 cm or 50% of space is blocked” than to drop from an 8 mm opening to 4 mm (well over 90% of space blocked in both examples).

 

 

He could squeeze through smaller spaces with Contortionist.  50 cm at minimal speed, (1 meter) without penalty seems reasonable (50 cm being about shoulder width, the most significant constraint).

 

I wanted to add something to this. The human would also be considered prone so would be extra vulnerable to attacks and would require an extra phase to stand up before using their movement at full capacity again.

 

 

I don’t know that the rules say he is considered prone, but it seems reasonable to apply penalties.  Presumably, our Protean limited to, say, 25 cm could also squeeze through something a bit smaller (say half the “no penalty” size) taking penalties similar to our non-Protean squeezing through a small window.

 

 

There should be no limitation only where there is no restriction to the size of the openings (if water or air can get through, so can he).  So I will suggest that 1 mm or less is -1/4, at least 50 mm is -1/2 and at least 5 cm is -3/4, at least 50 cm is -1, and all are doubled for “cannot split”, which means we count only one opening instead of the effective “open to blocked” ratio.

 

The -0 limitation is simply giving the player an option that would describe a self imposed restriction but has no bearing on the effectiveness of the power as a whole. I was thinking that 1mm would be the absolute smallest opening that this power would allow you bypass barriers. Beyond that I think it starts overlapping the Desolid power, but that can be a GM determined thing.

 

 

I think if water or air can get through, the base power should allow the Protean to get through, given examples of the power are people turning to air or water.  A -0 for a character who is more restricted, but not enough to merit a limitation, is certainly reasonable.  I would feel better about my gradations if we had an idea what each level can and cannot pass through (i.e. how often each gradation would be more limiting).

 

 

 

This is where I would apply “cannot split”.  If I can only get through spaces at least 50 cm, and can split, a chain link fence is easy, but if I cannot split, it goes back to being a barrier.

 

 

Reduced Movement:  seems like this is a limitation which should be applied to the movement (e.g. the character can fly at 50 meters, but only 2 meters through barriers, so he should buy Protean normally, and Limit 45 meters of Flight, probably a pretty minor limitation (-1/4 is my gut feel). 

 

Well, using the same logic you presented above for the base power and movement types, any reduction in movement should automatically affect all movement types for this power. I shy away from having one power force the player to place limitations on other powers. It would be like an Clinging having options that force you place limitations on other powers in order to have the option. The best argument against this is that the Reduction is tied directly to the Protean power. If you aren't using the Protean power then movement powers are unaffected. Perhaps some form of linked would make more sense but I'm not seeing it.

 

 

No one forces the player to limit one or more movement powers.  Someone with a lot of movement powers would be less limited if only one were reduced when using Protean, something best judged by the GM based on the specifics, and I don’t think the limitation would be very large, as I don’t envision a lot of times when moving slower in a pipe will create a huge challenge.  Maybe I should just put +20m Running in a Multipower with Protean - I can pass through barriers, but it slows me down a fixed amount.

 

 

 

But -1 on a 20 point power to drop, say, 12m running to 2m while using Protean seems like a lot when you can buy +10m running with the 10 points saved.  It seems a lot more limiting if the character had a 60m movement speed.  

 

 

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Protean [ Standard Power, Constant, Self-Only ]
This power allows the character to move through porous barriers that would otherwise block them from passing (fences, pipes, wire screening).
The character may pass through the barrier as if no barrier existed at their normal movement rate.

Cost: 20 Points

Modifiers

Viscosity (-1/2), +1 Phase (-1/4)
The character can still move through barriers but requires additional time depending on the porosity of the barrier.
You can increase the time required for travel by an additional +1 Phase per -1/4 Limitation.
The barriers porosity is relative to the character's height.

Viscosity Chart
Porosity  Extra Time  Example Porosity (Based On 2m Height)
--------  ----------  -------------------------------------
1/500     +8 Phases   4 mm
1/250     +7 Phases   8 mm
1/125     +6 Phases   16 mm
1/64      +5 Phases   32 mm
1/32      +4 Phases   64 mm
1/16      +3 Phases   125 mm
1/8       +2 Phases   25 cm
1/4       +1 Phase    50 cm


Minimum Porosity (Varies)
The character may only bypass barriers with at least one opening/passage of a certain size or larger (Porosity).
The shape of the opening is presumed to be Diameter but the player may specify the shape of the opening with GM approval.

Porosity Chart
Porosity  Limitation  Example Porosity (Based on 2m Height)
--------  ----------  -------------------------------------
1/125+    -0          1 mm - 15 mm          
1/125     -1/4        16 mm
1/64      -1/2        32 mm
1/32      -3/4        64 mm
1/16      -1          125 mm
1/8       -1 1/4      25 cm
1/4       -1 1/2      50 cm


Cannot Split (x2 Modifier) The Character may not split their body to bypass barriers (SFX Limitation).


Reduced Movement (Varies)
The character's movement rate is considered reduced when this power is active.

Reduction Chart
-1/4 Movement Rate Halved
-1/2 Movement Rate Quartered
-1   Reduced to 1" Movement Rate


- Christopher Mullins
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Feels like we have a decent base cost at 20, and No Split becomes part of other limitations.

 

Already made those changes. I reposted the power again for easy reference.

 

Viscosity:  My first thought was “can I lower the penalty by 1 phase if I reduce the limitation?  But why do we need this limitation at all when we could simply apply Extra Time to the situations where time will be increased?  That one will be complex to math out if it scales based on the size of the openings, but Extra Time should reasonably form the baseline.  Maybe Extra Time is taken at full value, but reduced one time increment for each stage on the Porosity chart before the first delay kicks in, or reduced two time increments if the character can split.

So, if it will take me a full turn or so (5 SPD, -1 1/2 for Visc + 4 phases), why not make it a minute?  That’s 20 more phases, so now it’s -6 1/2?  I think Extra Time has it right that there is a point where more time needs to be a lot longer to be more limiting.

I’d say at base level, you move full movement through the obstacle (basically ignoring it as far as movement is concerned). 

You want it to delay movement a bit?  I would suggest Full Phase (-1/2) should mean you get a half move that takes a full phase (like an attack which would normally take a half phase now requiring a full phase).

Slower still?  Extra Phase is -3/4 and Full Turn is -1 1/4.  Maybe 2 extra phases could be -1.  Once we hit a full turn, will you use this in combat?  I doubt it, so moving to the slower pace of the time chart (-1 ½ for a minute, -2 for 5 minutes, etc.) feels reasonable to me.

I had to completely reset my brain. I was thinking segments instead of phases when looking at my own chart.

So to try to clarify things... 

Start with Full Phase (I had forgotten about this one).

Extra time is applied to the first level (50cm) or to all levels? All levels would seem to negate the idea of the smaller the opening the longer it takes.

 

How do you see the chart being structured?

Viscosity Chart
Porosity  Extra Time  Human (2m Height)  Extra Time (RAW)   Extra Time (1)       Extra Time (2)
--------  ----------  -----------------  ----------------   -------------------  -------------------
1/500     +8 Phases   4 mm               ?                                       6 Minutes      (?)
1/250     +7 Phases   8 mm               ?                                       Full Minute    (?)
1/125     +6 Phases   16 mm              ?                                       Full Turn (-1 1/4)
1/64      +5 Phases   32 mm              ?                  6 Minutes (?)        Extra Phase (-3/4)
1/32      +4 Phases   64 mm              ?                  Full Minute (?)      Full Phase  (-1/2)
1/16      +3 Phases   125 mm             ?                  Full Turn (-1 1/4)   Full Movement
1/8       +2 Phases   25 cm              ?                  Extra Phase (-3/4)   Full Movement
1/4       +1 Phase    50 cm              Full Phase (-1/2)  Full Phase (-1/2)    Full Movement

Note: My idea was that when you took the Viscosity limitation that the whole chart was applied as is. Being able to apply the limitation further up the chart (it seems that's what you are saying) would be less limiting so I'm not sure how that would work.

 

Note that we can also have Sandman require, say, a minute to get his sandy body into that 1 cm pipe, after which he can move at full speed through the pipe (Extra Time, 1 minute, Only to Activate, -3/4), which adds an option your model lacks at present.

 

Isn't the Only to Activate for activating the power itself? If so that wouldn't make a lot of sense.

Since this would be actually reducing the limitation of Viscosity wouldn't it just become a modifier to it? Only for entering opening (+1/2)

 

Is this where “no split” belongs?  My gut feel is no, as discussed below, although it could impact how often Limited Time (only below certain sizes) kicks in.

 

Perhaps No Split is the wrong term for this. My thought was to give the option for those saying their form must remain contiguous throughout and that it would cost them more time. Perhaps Extra Time with SFX (No Split).

 

This is an area where examples of what the character can be passed through would really help.  It seems a lot more limiting to go from “50 cm opening or 25% of space is blocked” to “25 cm or 50% of space is blocked” than to drop from an 8 mm opening to 4 mm (well over 90% of space blocked in both examples).

 

This kind of thing makes my head hurt. Can't really oppose or offer an opinion. (8^D)

 

This is where I would apply “cannot split”.  If I can only get through spaces at least 50 cm, and can split, a chain link fence is easy, but if I cannot split, it goes back to being a barrier.

 

Already added. This is really just SFX based limitation. I don't remember the details of that limitation.

 

Reduced Movement:  seems like this is a limitation which should be applied to the movement (e.g. the character can fly at 50 meters, but only 2 meters through barriers, so he should buy Protean normally, and Limit 45 meters of Flight, probably a pretty minor limitation (-1/4 is my gut feel). 

 

No one forces the player to limit one or more movement powers.  Someone with a lot of movement powers would be less limited if only one were reduced when using Protean, something best judged by the GM based on the specifics, and I don’t think the limitation would be very large, as I don’t envision a lot of times when moving slower in a pipe will create a huge challenge.  Maybe I should just put +20m Running in a Multipower with Protean - I can pass through barriers, but it slows me down a fixed amount.

 

But -1 on a 20 point power to drop, say, 12m running to 2m while using Protean seems like a lot when you can buy +10m running with the 10 points saved.  It seems a lot more limiting if the character had a 60m movement speed.  

 

After giving this more thought I will concede that limiting the movement powers is more in line with how the Hero System is meant to work. I'll remove the chart for this one to allow for more flexibility and to be more Heroesque. (8^D)

 

The one thing that does bother me about starting with 20 Points and doing limitations is that any -2 Limitation is supposed represent how useful/impactful the power is in the game.

 

Thanks for bearing with me.

 

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If I can chime in here--

 

and I fully accept that either or both of you is likely far, far more familiar with the current (or even the most recent previous) edition of the rules than I will likely ever be, and that for matching thing out logically, there are few who do so as thoroughly as Hugh as always done in the past (always a pleasure, Hugh! :) ), I'd like to pipe up and say that applying a Protean-based Limitation to the movement itself feels completely and totally wrong.  Just because you have Protean and have to slow way, way down to fly through a chain link fence does not mean that your Flight is in anyway limited.  If it does, than characters who do _not_ have Protean should get an even larger limitation on their Flight because they can't fly though a fence at all (baring brute force, of course).

 

Further, I would like to offer something that feels a bit more right to me (and forgive me if I'm all out of whack with what you've got so far; I don't think so, but I am just recovering a three-day fever-- and just in time to go back to work!  Lucky me! :lol: ).

 

I think this works a lot cleaner if Protean was, at the twenty-point level, built to include the idea of what Christopher has called "Splitting."   It also has a better "on-the-fly" management for the GM and slows the game down less:

 

Let's see...  Amorpho, you round the corner in hot pursuit, but notice that Scrambling Fugitive Man has bounded up and over the chain link fence in the alley and is making his way around the corner, toward the warehouse doors.  The Chainlink fence still offers like 95% or better open space; you can probably run right through it.

 

Or

 

---SFM has bounded up and over the plank fence in the alley.....   offers like 20% open space; take you a full phase to squeeze through it...

 

Granted, that's loose, but as, in the last few years, I have been GM farm more often than player, and I have to satisfy everyone at the table, I like things that scale quickly and easily, and don't take too much time away from everyone else's fun.

 

In my own opinion, I would think that the build is better served offering "Can't Split" or "must remain contiguous" or "non-strainable" or whatever term fits best on the character sheet should, in fact, be a Limitation to the Power, and personally, I see it as easily a -1, perhaps more.

 

Or do we need to split the Power itself?  "Amorphous" for those characters who must remain a singular component, and "Gelatinous" or "Strainable" for those who don't?

 

Or-- and this comes to me as I type-- Base the value of "Can't Split" to include a movement penalty based on the minimum size of the opening through which he can fit: if the opening must be a minimum of 10 percent of his current cross section (say, 1m x 1/2m)...

 

Let me think--

 

If the Character could reasonably expect to dive through an opening without a movement penalty, for a man-sized character, I'd say the suggested 1 x 1/2 m given above (perhaps with an Acrobatics roll he could continue on for his full move), then base the movement penalties as such: half that opening size means 1/2 the movement that Phase; 1/4 that size means 1/4 the movement, etc.  

 

This will give you a handy way to figure out when he needs extra phases: when you get below 1 meter in a single phase, assume this entire passage now requires 2 Phases.  If the opening is so small as bring that math down less than a 1 meter in 2 Phases, then it will take 3, or 4, or what-have-you.

 

Rather than having a chart with the power (save for exemplary purposes), I would suggest a small customized chart that the player keeps with his character sheet, since Character's will have different movements, etc.

 

At any rate, that's why I see happening with  Protean, Can't Split (-1).

 

 

From there, you can establish a separate Limitation: minimum cross section, or minimum opening size, or something like that, that can apply to both forms of Protean: the Splittable and the Unsplittable.  I would call that somewhere smaller than 1/4 your "regular" (say, 1mx1/2m; varies depending on your character's size, or course) simply because Contortionist will already let you pass through at that size (if I remember correctly).  And of course, the smaller the minimum size opening, the lower the value of the Limitation.  Perhaps a minimum opening of 1/8 your cross section would be -3/4 (as it makes the power much less useful than it would be: you're effectively a slimy contortionist willing to grease up a little extra, vomit twice, and pop a few joints out of place), 1/16 would be -1/2, 1/32 would be -1/4.  If you go to 1/8 values (we do), then fair enough: 1/64 of your normal cross section is a -1/8.

 

After that, though, I really believe we are falling _away_ from the need to model the effect with a new power and firmly into establishing this as a set of SFX and Limitations / Advantages on Shrinking.

 

Just my thoughts.

 

And likely worth slightly less than you paid for them. :lol:

 

 

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I fully accept that either or both of you is likely far, far more familiar with the current (or even the most recent previous) edition of the rules than I will likely ever be...

 

Well I've been out of it for around 8 years and I don't have 6th Edition so you should have an edge on me. (8^D)

 

... and that for matching thing out logically, there are few who do so as thoroughly as Hugh as always done in the past (always a pleasure, Hugh!)

 

Without a doubt. Hugh definitely seems to be able to compare cost/benefits much better that I can.

 

I'd like to pipe up and say that applying a Protean-based Limitation to the movement itself feels completely and totally wrong.  Just because you have Protean and have to slow way, way down to fly through a chain link fence does not mean that your Flight is in anyway limited.  If it does, than characters who do _not_ have Protean should get an even larger limitation on their Flight because they can't fly though a fence at all (baring brute force, of course).

 

Thank you! I wasn't able to nail down why I thought it was isolated to the Protean power. You expressed it much better than I could.

That was what I was thinking and makes perfect sense to me, but I do acknowledge why Hugh thinks the other approach is more appropriate. I think this is one of those rare exceptions where the power needs to handle things separately than using the more generic approach. There are other powers I believe have broken the rule in this manner but I can't think of one right now. I wish I could remember where I stored my books. (8^D)

 

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Seems like we are getting close.  Viscosity and Porosity are the really challenging aspect.

 

I think I would remove “Tunneling and Teleport are not applicable with this power. “ as an artifact of the link to a specific movement form.  Teleport bypasses obstacles in its own way, but if I had both Protean and Teleport, couldn’t I Teleport part-way down a long, narrow pipe?  If there is a chain link fence buried in the ground, a Protean could Tunnel through it even if it is higher DEF than his tunneling would permit, as long as he can tunnel through the dirt around it.

 

Viscosity/Porosity

 

Viscosity is still a challenging one. Having the whole chart apply as is becomes very rigid, and the chart becomes challenging. 

 

If the character has the base power, we also need the percentage of “free space”.  It seems like that character will be much less limited as he can flow through a chain link fence with ease.  Maybe less than 75% free space is required to slow him down at all.  Then we drop to 50%, 25%, and so on.  Again, once we start hitting much tinier gradations, the differences seem to fade away and we are likely getting to having to creep through a pipe, rather than a screen.

 

A Full Phase is -1/2, an Extra Phase -3/4, a Turn -1 1/4, a minute -1 1/2, and each extra step up the chart is a further -1/2 (so 5 minutes, 20 minutes, 1 hour, 6 hours, 1 day (2 mm), 1 week.

 

Starting at Full Phase, I’d move it up to Extra Phase, 2 Extra Phases (-1, between extra phase and a turn, 1 Turn, 1 minute, then follow the chart.  So 1 minute at 32mm/more than 5% open area, down to an hour at 4 mm (0.5%) and say 5 hours for anything less open that he can still pass through.

 

A full phase to use it at all would normally be -1/2, and this character gets more Extra Time the more narrow it gets, so he is more limited.  That has to be worth more than -1/2.  Reaching a full turn at 64 mm/12.5% seems like it will be rare to get a lot tighter, so this feels less limiting than always taking a full turn.  That leaves a gut feel of -1.

 

However, if it applies to the smallest single space (i.e. cannot split), that seems much more limiting – the chain link fence is a serious obstacle again.  I think that merits an additional -1, to bring it to -2 (lost most of its utility). 

 

Now, what if we want to move up the chart?  I’d say the limitation is dropping off fast, and will eventually be “less than -1/4”, but if it hit -1/4 at 64 mm, that might work.  Maybe a generous GM might continue to allow -1/4 at smaller increments.

 

For those who cannot split, the limitation should drop off faster, but could also reach the -1/4 level one step higher on the chart. 

 

Maybe that suggests Viscosity starts with the assumption that extra time is required based on squeezing through a single space.  If it starts at the 50 cm level, that’s -2.  Each step up the chart reduces the limitation by 1/2 so it falls to -1/2 if it only starts at 64 mm, and -1/4 at 32 mm. 

 

If the character is not limited by the size of the largest single gap, but the % of area blocked, halve the limitation. 

 

If the character only needs to spend the extra time to squeeze into the smaller space, after which he can move normally, that’s like Extra Time, only to activate, so halve the limitation.

 

I think only halving it once for both of the above is reasonable – how often will a character need to move a long distance through an obstacle Splitting helps with?

 

Porosity is more limiting than Viscosity, as being able to squeeze through with Extra Time is better than not being able to squeeze through at all.  It seems like a character might have both Viscosity and Porosity limited.  This is the guy who needs an extra phase to travel through those 50 cm air ducts, and can’t squeeze down below 25 cm.  Applying both limitations, he gets -2 for Viscosity (starts at 50 cm and cannot split) and -2 1/2 for Porosity (can’t get through anything smaller than 25 cm, cannot split).  That seems really excessive.

 

The fact that Cannot Split doubles both perhaps suggests they should be combined. 

 

What if we started Porosity at -2 for 50 cm or 75% of area, moved it two steps up the chart (to -1 1/2  at base level) if it is Viscosity instead (you get slower instead of being entirely blocked), and doubled it if you Cannot Split.

 

That would mean being able to squeeze through 50 cm spaces using a full phase would be a -2 limitation (bottom of the chart), doubled for being unable to split is -4.  It costs 4 points and 2 END.  Maybe you should just have bought Contortionist – and for that limited ability, you should.

 

If you can squeeze through 50 cm in a full phase, and smaller spaces by taking longer, you get moved two steps up the chart, to -1 1/2, doubled because you cannot split, so -3, and a 5 point ability.  That feels too cheap compared to Contortionist, doesn’t it?

 

Maybe each step up the chart needs to reduce the base limitation by 1/2 instead of 1/4.  If you can squeeze through 50 cm in a full phase, and smaller spaces by taking longer, you get moved two steps up the chart, to -1, doubled because you cannot split, so -2, and a 7 point ability.  That feels pretty cheap compared to Contortionist, but we need to remember that the full ability is only going to cost 20 points.  Contortionist is for non-Power games.

 

That would mean Porosity is -2 for 50 cm (75% area), -1 for 125 mm (25% area), -1/2 for 64 mm or less (12.5% area).  Smaller than that would be -1/4 (as long as the GM feels the minimum is still small enough to be limiting), or -1/2 if you cannot split.  The GM could also allow Cannot Split to dip lower for a -1/4 limitation.

BTW, Duke, I agree to an extent on the "limited shrinking", but the whole power could be simulated with Limited Desolid too.

 

Movement Reduced

 

The one ability that comes to mind is STR which is usable only with an Extra Limb, which has similar issues.  Perhaps the best answer is that characters who move more slowly while using Protean should be using Viscosity, although that is a pretty blunt instrument.

 

I’d have to say that movement which cannot be used while using Protean is not very limiting – even -1/4 may be a tough sell.  Of course, the option of a Multipower with Protean and +x Movement slots also exists.  As an alternative, Lockout could be placed on the Protean power, but -1/2 seems like a lot if only a bit of movement is locked out.

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On 8/18/2018 at 1:18 AM, unclevlad said:

Looking for feedback.  Alternate Desolid from APG doesn't really work for me;  being Desolid is more about damage negation or reduction than straight PD or ED to me.  Reduction would probably work IF I went with the expanded Damage Reduction charts/power choices, but I first thought of this as using damage negation.

 

So...what I'm considering.  Quasi Solid is purchased in levels, like Shrinking or DI.  Each level gives:

1 DC physical and energy Damage Negation.  This does NOT apply to powers with Affects Desolid.  (Like the PD/ED from Alternate Desolid.)

x1/2 Mass

x1/2 Size, only for purposes of passing through non-solid objects.  I define a standard character box, for this purpose, as 2m by 1/2 meter by 1/2 meter.  So with 3 levels of quasi solid, you can pass through bars 3" apart.

+2" Knockback.  This affects distance only, not velocity or velocity-related damage.  (This is straight from Alternate Desolid.)

 

The power is Constant and costs END.

 

For the time being, I assigned a temporary price of 12 points per level;  the damage negation is 10 on its own, but normally doesn't cost END.  The small size helps infiltration often enough to be worth something...but perhaps not as much  as I'm thinking.  The move through solids of Alternate Desolid is generally stronger.  So I could certainly see making this 10 points per level.

 

Note that this is not Desolid, and you don't need to buy anything with Affects Desolid.  It has no Life Support issues.  So it's closer to Desolid with Selective Desolidification.  It probably only makes mechanical sense if buying around 3-6 levels;  more, and you're probably better off buying Desolid and Selected Desolidification, even if it feels like a dodge (and it does to me, I'm not a big fan of Selective Desolid).  Less, and heck, just buy the Damage Negation.  The size aspect won't help *that* much.

 

Thoughts?  Modifications?  Change how you pass through objects somehow?  I'm not saying this is perfect, but it at least does scale, and I don't like Alternate Desolid's allowance of passing through completely solid, if not terribly robust, items.  I want this closer to Not Through Solids...with something scaling to say your penetration ability improves as you buy more.

 

I think you've got it way overpriced.  Most of the "benefits" you're giving the power aren't really worth any points, or are extremely situational.  Having 1/2 mass and size will only come up very rarely.  They don't have an actual defined game benefit, you're only getting something if the GM decided to make those factors important in this particular scenario.  As a player, I'd skip over this power as you have it written.  I'd look at it and say "yeah, I'm not buying that."

 

The real power is PD and ED Damage Negation, costs end (-1/2), doesn't affect attacks with 'affects desolid' (maybe -1/4).  That's 5.7 points per level, and I don't suffer any extra knockback.  As far as moving through objects, I can get everything I need with a small amount of Teleportation.  I don't really gain anything from your power that I can't get elsewhere much cheaper.  I'd just make your power 6 points per level and call it good.

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I think it is for a player to think about the uses of a movement power.  The big advantage of this over teleportation is the ability to creep down and through pipe and ductwork, looking for places that you might emerge - with TP you really need to see where you want to go.  This allows for exploration in a way that TP does not and allows for that in places that might be unexpected.  There is value there.  Situational but that is true of most movement powers.

 

Doc

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I think I would remove “Tunneling and Teleport are not applicable with this power. “ as an artifact of the link to a specific movement form.  Teleport bypasses obstacles in its own way, but if I had both Protean and Teleport, couldn’t I Teleport part-way down a long, narrow pipe?  If there is a chain link fence buried in the ground, a Protean could Tunnel through it even if it is higher DEF than his tunneling would permit, as long as he can tunnel through the dirt around it.

 

Done. I just couldn't think of any way that the powers could combine.

 

Perhaps the best answer is that characters who move more slowly while using Protean should be using Viscosity, although that is a pretty blunt instrument.

 

There's a distinct difference between full movement taking extra time vs reduced movement. The mechanics obviously work differently.

 

Barrier Chart
Path  / Porosity  Viscosity       
----------------  ----------------
1/500 / 1%        1 Hour            
1/250 / 2%        20 Minutes        
1/125 / 3%        5 Minutes         
1/64  / 6%        1 Minute          
1/32  / 12%       Full Turn         
1/16  / 25%       2 Extra Phases    
1/8   / 50%       Extra Phase       
1/4   / 75%       Full Phase      

Path     - Size of a single path through the barrier (based as fraction of the character's height).
Porosity - How porous the barrier is (based as a percentage of empty space vs non-empty space of the barrier).

Modifiers
---------
Viscosity (-1 for Extra Time, x2 with Cannot Split) - Character requires more and more time to bypass smaller and smaller Path/Porosity.
Cannot Split - Character's body is contiguous.

Nonpliablity (Varies) - Character is unable to to bypass barriers after a certain point (see chart).

I'm starting to get there (I think).
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5 minutes ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Massey, what do you think of the tangent on Protean?

 

He never got that far, it seems safe to say.

 

And it's not that much of a tangent, as it's almost much the concept I was targeting insofar as the movement went.  I'm just not going the limits range, but levels because the viscous body notion totally dovetails in with damage negation IMO.  It's not entirely the same as moving to Desolid but it's close.

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Why damage negation rather than damage reduction or defenses?  Why constrain the choices of the amorphous character in this regard?  Similarly, why must physical and energy move in lockstep?  Couldn't our Blob be nigh immune to physical attacks, but affected by energy?  Perhaps Plastic Sam bends and bounces back from a punch or a club, but is cut by a knife (i.e. killing attack) as easily as any other person?

 

I like the Protean model precisely because it addresses only the single missing mechanic, not forcing other mechanics upon the character. 

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15 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

Massey, what do you think of the tangent on Protean?

 

It's okay, I guess.  I think the limitations for viscosity and porosity are too granular.  I don't know that we need that level of specificity in what you can pass through.  At the end of the day, you're going to be asking the GM to make a ruling on how many millimeters wide a particular crack in the wall is.  In the real world, that kind of question has an answer.  In the game, the GM is going to have to make it up right then.

 

I also wonder about how this power works in conjunction with attacks.  Does it effectively give me Indirect on any attack I make?  Can I travel through a pipe, then stick my hand out and blast somebody while the rest of my body remains safely in the wall?  Or stand on the other side of a door, poke my face through the crack, and optic blast somebody in the room?  Does it operate just like Stretching that way?

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I'm not necessarily opposed to the idea of Damage Negation as a substitute for Desolid.  Say you wanted a "liquid metal body" for a character, where he can shrug off a lot of attacks but you don't want to pay the crazy cost of Affects Real World.  That could be a way to do it, and it still gives enemies the ability to hurt you without the rock/paper/scissors aspect of having an Affects Desolid attack.

 

I just think the original power, as proposed, is far too expensive.

 

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2 hours ago, massey said:

 

It's okay, I guess.  I think the limitations for viscosity and porosity are too granular.  I don't know that we need that level of specificity in what you can pass through.  At the end of the day, you're going to be asking the GM to make a ruling on how many millimeters wide a particular crack in the wall is.  In the real world, that kind of question has an answer.  In the game, the GM is going to have to make it up right then.

 

I also wonder about how this power works in conjunction with attacks.  Does it effectively give me Indirect on any attack I make?  Can I travel through a pipe, then stick my hand out and blast somebody while the rest of my body remains safely in the wall?  Or stand on the other side of a door, poke my face through the crack, and optic blast somebody in the room?  Does it operate just like Stretching that way?

 

I agree with the granularity issue, especially when we get to really minor variances.  I think it could be better served with a list of examples of what the character could pass through at each level than an ever-decreasing minimum size, and at some point that minimum just stops - it is too small to have enough situations in play to merit even a -1/4 limitation. 

 

By the same token, by taking the limitation, the player is saying "this is about how often I want this to prevent or frustrate my use of this power".  If you are taking a -1/4 limitation because you can't pass through an opening smaller than 2 mm in diameter, then you are saying "I want situations to arise where this prevents me using my ability to bypass a barrier".

 

2 hours ago, massey said:

I'm not necessarily opposed to the idea of Damage Negation as a substitute for Desolid.  Say you wanted a "liquid metal body" for a character, where he can shrug off a lot of attacks but you don't want to pay the crazy cost of Affects Real World.  That could be a way to do it, and it still gives enemies the ability to hurt you without the rock/paper/scissors aspect of having an Affects Desolid attack.

 

I just think the original power, as proposed, is far too expensive.

 

 

I think Damage Negation as a substitute for Desolid can be a reasonable build.  But I also think high defenses, or damage reduction, could be just as reasonable a mechanic.

 

As indicated above, I think a pricing model similar to Shrinking would do the trick for the first-suggested ability.  You're getting 10 points of damage negation, rather than 10 points of DCV, per level.

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I also wonder about how this power works in conjunction with attacks.  Does it effectively give me Indirect on any attack I make?  Can I travel through a pipe, then stick my hand out and blast somebody while the rest of my body remains safely in the wall?  Or stand on the other side of a door, poke my face through the crack, and optic blast somebody in the room?  Does it operate just like Stretching that way?

 

  • Does not give you any Indirect on any attack by default (Advantages/Other Powers would be required).
  • If you travel through a pipe and remain in the pipe (I presume), then you can fire at whoever you can perceive as normal. No different that Shrinking down, traveling through a pipe. remaining in the pipe, and attacking from the pipe. You could even get cover bonuses for that tactic. However, on the flip side, if an opponent lobs a grenade into that pipe, don't bother trying to dodge or getting away from the blast area (presuming the pipe is longer than your ability to move out of it (the blast would travel down the pipe after you, GM fiat).
  • Stretching Example: Stretching simply gives you extra reach to allow you use a Hand Attack at range and doesn't give indirect or special bonuses by default (I could be wrong about that. I think the GM was given option to allow for that kind of thing but I don't recall it being intrinsic to the power). As for the Optic blast above. All you are really doing is taking advantage of the cover rules which anyone can do. That's given that there is cover to get behind which this power may give you opportunities that others might not have in that area. But the same could be said of Invisibility since it technically gives you the ability to attack from behind (depending on movement) and get bonuses for doing that. So does it operate like Stretching? I don't think so.
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Hugh, is this more like you were thinking?

I was struggling but something just clicked and it started to coalesce.

 

Barrier Chart
Path  / Porosity  Viscosity         Nonpliability  Examples (Human Height)
----------------  ----------------  -------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1/250 / 2%        20 Minutes                       8mm - Locked office doors (with tile floor), fan blade gaps, and old fashioned keyholes are bypassed. 
1/125 / 3%        5 Minutes         -1/4           16mm (1.6cm) - Open sunroofs, large fan blade gaps, and medium pipes are bypassed.
1/64  / 6%        1 Minute          -1/2           32mm (3.2cm) - Large pipes, prison bars, and manhole covers are bypassed.
1/32  / 12%       Full Turn         -1             64mm (6.4cm) - Large mail slot and certain type of sewer entrances (not manhole covers) are bypassed.
1/16  / 25%       2 Extra Phases    -1 1/2         125mm (12.5cm) - ?
1/8   / 50%       Extra Phase       -2             250mm (25cm) - ?
1/4   / 75%       Full Phase                       500mm (50cm) - Air ducts, small windows, and sewer pipes are bypassed.

Path     - Size of a single path through the barrier (based as a fraction of the character's height).
           Applies to the character that Cannot Split their body to bypass barriers.
Porosity - How porous the barrier is (based as a percentage of empty space vs non-empty space of the barrier).
           Applies to the character that can split their body to bypass barriers.

Modifiers
---------
Viscosity (-1 for Extra Time, x2 with Cannot Split) - Character requires more and more time to bypass smaller and smaller Path/Porosity.
Cannot Split - Character's body is contiguous and Porosity of a barrier may not may not be bypassed.

Nonpliablity (Varies) - Character is unable to to bypass barriers after a certain point (see chart).
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15 hours ago, schir1964 said:

I also wonder about how this power works in conjunction with attacks.  Does it effectively give me Indirect on any attack I make?  Can I travel through a pipe, then stick my hand out and blast somebody while the rest of my body remains safely in the wall?  Or stand on the other side of a door, poke my face through the crack, and optic blast somebody in the room?  Does it operate just like Stretching that way?

 

  • Does not give you any Indirect on any attack by default (Advantages/Other Powers would be required).
  • If you travel through a pipe and remain in the pipe (I presume), then you can fire at whoever you can perceive as normal. No different that Shrinking down, traveling through a pipe. remaining in the pipe, and attacking from the pipe. You could even get cover bonuses for that tactic. However, on the flip side, if an opponent lobs a grenade into that pipe, don't bother trying to dodge or getting away from the blast area (presuming the pipe is longer than your ability to move out of it (the blast would travel down the pipe after you, GM fiat).
  • Stretching Example: Stretching simply gives you extra reach to allow you use a Hand Attack at range and doesn't give indirect or special bonuses by default (I could be wrong about that. I think the GM was given option to allow for that kind of thing but I don't recall it being intrinsic to the power). As for the Optic blast above. All you are really doing is taking advantage of the cover rules which anyone can do. That's given that there is cover to get behind which this power may give you opportunities that others might not have in that area. But the same could be said of Invisibility since it technically gives you the ability to attack from behind (depending on movement) and get bonuses for doing that. So does it operate like Stretching? I don't think so.

 

First off, I like those examples in your other post.

 

Second, I pulled up 6e Stretching and choked...

 

There is a comment that Stretching is, by its nature, "indirect in some respects", and can be used to attack someone from behind, for example.  No big deal that Protean does not provide a similar benefit.

 

Much bigger deal...

 

Quote

Stretching Dimensions

 


 

At its base level, Stretching only lets a character make parts of his body longer. (Typically that means his arms, less often his legs, and much more rarely other body parts.) However, some characters
with Stretching are much more malleable and can alter their forms in more extreme ways. For every +5 Character Points a character with Stretching can increase one of the dimensions of his body (height, width, or thickness) by up to x2 (or reduce it by half), but must at the same time alter one of the other dimensions proportionately to compensate...

 

A character’s ability to fit through small spaces when using Stretching is governed by his smallest dimension. For example, if he can reduce his height to one-eighth normal, he can be as little as 25
centimeters tall and can fit into openings as small as 25cm. Since his body has increased in other dimensions, he has to “ooze through” openings. The character’s maximum speed while moving this way is equal to his meters of Running times his reduction in dimension (standard rounding rules apply).

 

 

I've trimmed a lot of the text, but it seems like the character who Cannot Split is handled by the RAW, although

 

Quote

Typically a character must buy at least 2m of Stretching before he can spend Character Points to alter the dimensions of his body. The GM may require a certain minimum purchase of meters of


Stretching before a character can buy lots of malleability (for example, perhaps each +5 Character Points of malleability requires the character to first buy at least 3m of Stretching).

 

However, it seems we can simulate that Cannot Split character by waiving any minimum Stretching and allowing movement modes other than Running to be used.

 

I do find it off-putting that 20 points of Malleability would equate to about 3 cm gaps, given we've established above that this price should allow you to pass through any object which is not airtight, but we are handwaving Affects Solid World in that regard.  The Stretching approach also comes with reduced movement by default. 

 

I think, perhaps, Protean (perhaps renamed "Malleable") might be a better-priced alternative to remove this ability from the Stretching power.  However, I think we have moved away from "how do we do this at all".

 

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..."indirect in some respects", and can be used to attack someone from behind,...

Yeah, that's kind of what I remembered and I always took that as GM fiat.

The "indirect in some respects" portion means not in all respects of Indirect. So what aspects of Indirect do you get? Do they detail that?

Hitting someone from behind (Stretching or not) gives you certain bonuses and can be countered by some degree by the opponent since he can still perceive the attack.

Invisibility prevents much of that countering since perceiving the attack is difficult if not impossible. 

 

On "Stretching Dimensions":

I'm fairly sure this wasn't elaborated on in the 5th Edition rules (could be wrong... again).

 

I did a lot research in the Thesaurus before settling on Protean for the name. It best fits what the power does.

Also, the name doesn't imply any overlap with other powers (unless you already know it's definition and use it regularly).

 

Malleable was the next best title but implies some things that I didn't want implied about the power.

 

What were your thoughts on the Nonpliability limitation (I couldn't find a better word)? How should that be structured with the Barrier Chart?

I've updated the chart with first stab at values.

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I think once we reach the 1/250/2% level, that should simply be “done, you can get through any crack, crevice or porosity, however small”.  At some point, we need that “Desolid, no protection, not through solid objects” effect.

 

The Non-Porosity limitation makes sense to me.  If all you can do is squeeze through a 50 cm space as a full phase, that’s -2 Viscosity (doubled for can’t split) plus -2 for Nonpliability so a 4 point ability.  Given how little impact it will have, that does not seem unreasonable.

 

I am pretty sure the malleability addition to Stretching is a 6e addition.    Odd, since a lot of 6e modifiers were decoupling and this is a new coupling.

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