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What's your favorite edition of Hero System/Champions?


fdw3773

Favorite Hero System/Champions Edition  

78 members have voted

  1. 1. What is your favorite edition of Hero System/Champions?

    • Early Series (1st, 2nd, 3rd Edition)
      5
    • 4th Edition
      31
    • 5th Edition
      23
    • 6th Edition
      33


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The recent discussion in a different posting about the Champions Now Kickstarter project made me think back to my Hero System/Champions experiences than spans over 30 years. Even though my first superhero RPG was Villains & Vigilantes by Fantasy Games Unlimited, when I first received Champions 3rd Edition as a gift, I became a lifelong fan and collector, to include the various comic issues published at one point by Eclipse Comics that featured Marksman, Flare, and so on.

 

In addition to owning/playing Champions, I also owned/played DC Heroes by Mayfair Games (1st and 3rd Edition), Silver Age Sentinels (Tri-Stat and d20 versions), Mutants and Masterminds and later Icons (both original and The Assembled Edition) by Green Ronin Press, Heroes Unlimited by Palladium Books, along with independent titles like Prowlers & Paragons, Invulnerable, Supergame, and Guardians. In the end, though, I always found myself going back to Champions.

 

While I really enjoyed 3rd and 4th edition, by the early 2000s those books seemed dated when compared to other superhero games being released like Silver Age Sentinels, Mutant and Masterminds, and Aberrant. Also, the binding started wearing out, as these books were not as durable as the other books that I had (e.g. Robotech RPG series and source books by Palladium).

 

When the 5th Edition Hero System came out, I didn't know whether to laugh or cry. While the source books were well-designed and styled, the "Big Black Book" and later Fifth Revised Edition (FREd) that consisted of over 300+ and later 500+ pages of rules respectively, were a major turnoff. I would not become aware of the Hero Sidekick (Hero Basic 5th Edition) for several more years (it wasn't carried at my local game store). Years later, when I saw Hero System 6th Edition in its "college textbook" design with volumes that totaled over 600 pages of rules next to the latest version of Mutants and Masterminds and related source books published by Green Ronin, I couldn't help but wonder, "What was Hero Games thinking!?" After speaking with other fans about 6th Edition over the years, a common reaction was that 6th Edition seemed more like an exercise of writer's self-indulgence that did not significantly improve the system. Not surprisingly, this was followed by disparaging remarks about the senior staff at Hero Games.

 

Dungeons & Dragons is a similar situation where it is a long-standing game system with multiple editions. In recent years, Wizards of the Coast has made all of the Dungeons & Dragons editions available. I have relatives, friends, and colleagues who have collected the latest edition (5th) to add to their game collection while still actively playing their favorite previous edition in their respective gaming groups. Some like the "old school flair" of 2nd edition, others like 4th, and still others like the current edition. A common question that has come up has been, "Which edition of D&D is your favorite?"

 

So, with that in mind, "What's your favorite edition of the Hero System/Champions?"

 

 

 

 

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4th Edition with non-figured characteristics from 6th. I then mod from there with significant house rules (no Speed Chart, Luck Chits, END/AP caps) etc.

 

 

Edit: And I started with first edition. I played all the way through every edition. I loved 3rd Ed as the culmination of what the early takes were like, but 4th Ed brought consistency and cleaner rulings through out.

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46 minutes ago, zslane said:

4th edition with a few bits cribbed from 5th.

 

Exactly. 4th with bits of 5th like megascale.

 

I didn't feel like there was a clean transition from 1st to 2nd to 3rd so it made interpreting some published characters a little awkward. But 4th was a clean break and I felt it did a good balance of cleanness vs complexity.

 

When I'm thinking up characters, I think of them in 4th then have to adapt them to 5th or 6th (much the same way that someone who has English as her native language might think in English then have to translate that thought into French or Italian before communicating in those languages).

 

When I'm a player, I really like utility belts and figured characteristics. 6th lets you have one but not the other, which I see as a problem. :D

 

I started picking up HERO stuff the year it came out. It took me several years to find Adventurer's Club #1 after they started publishing it. Then I randomly found two copies of it at a used book store out of state, which makes that my favorite random RPG find ever.

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2nd edition, with bits and pieces stol-- erhm, _inspired by_ 3 & 4 but "downgraded" to fit the 1 and 2e style (turning Adders into 1/8 or 1/4 Advantages, things like that).  Bought 5th and re5th,  mostly out of curiosity but also for the rumors that it "answered so many questions."  It didn't.  It ran everything into such microscopic specificity that, for me (you are asking for opinions, right?  I'm not offering this as objective fact; it's just opinion) it actually really robbed a lot of the "totally generic, I can do anything" feel of the game.  Love the sourcebooks, though.  I don't think any system from any publisher has ever offered better sourcebooks that the stuff that Steve and Co have been pumping out.

 

Read 6th (couple of guys in my groups bought them) and really lost all interest in going any further than 4th for rules or mechanics.

 

 

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1 hour ago, archer said:

When I'm thinking up characters, I think of them in 4th then have to adapt them to 5th or 6th (much the same way that someone who has English as her native language might think in English then have to translate that thought into French or Italian before communicating in those languages).

 

I tend to do this with 2-3e.

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Fifth Edition for me (pre-Revised). I found that 5 kept a lot of what I liked about 4, while clarifying a number of elements I thought needed it, and expanding the range of options. The close compatibility between 4 and 5 made it easy to use stuff written for one edition in games running the other, providing me a very wide selection of materials to draw from. It also allowed me to easily crib from either rule set to find the balance of mechanics that best suited the play style I wanted.

 

IMHO Fifth Revised started bloating the rules past the line between thorough and cumbersome. I didn't feel a revision was really necessary at that time, but since it didn't fundamentally change anything I could still utilize my trusty FREd. I've never really gotten into Sixth Edition, despite liking a few of the changes and expansions. The core rule books are a little overwhelming unless you're seriously into plumbing the system. Fifth with some Fourth, and a few flourishes from Sixth, provides everything I feel I need.

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I don’t really grok the question.  I have played Champions since it was a poorly typeset black and white rulebook.

 

Each Edition has a different kind of feel and they are on a continuum.  There is a lot of love for 4th edition, and I think that is probably because it was created with an emphasis on the genre rather than the rules, 5th and 6th focussed on the mechanics over the genre and the rulebooks reflect that.

 

i think what we have is a rulebook preference.  I think, rulebooks aside, I prefer having 6th edition.  I note most of those who prefer earlier editions port in the things that they like from later editions.  I also think that while many call later editions bloated, these very forums demonstrate a desire for more detail on how things work - that indicates that the drift to textbook like rulebooks was a response to what the fan base seemed to want.  I appreciate all of the detail when I am getting into debates here on the forums, it explains the detail of how the power is intended to work.

 

as such, I do not have a favourite edition.  I prefer more information over less, I like having all the editions as they provide me with alternative ways to do things.  

 

Personally, I am looking forward to a new 7th edition which utilise modern technology, a true e-book that focuses on utility.  It should deliver the core system with virtually no detail upfront.  I would bet you could make the system look really streamlined that way with lots of colour and art.  The detail would be readily available on virtual pages that explained the detail necessary when building characters or thrashing through a rule query in game.  It would also provide a ready GM reference for in-game reference.

 

I write in for 7th Edition (interactive).  ?

 

Doc

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Doc, I would support a presentation of Sixth Edition rules as you suggest; but have utterly no interest in a Seventh. The Hero System rules have been refined to a microscopic degree by this point. IMO there are no more pressing issues that need to be addressed. Any changes to the game sufficient to warrant a Seventh Edition would merely reflect the author's individual preferences. All of us Game Masters already tweak the RAW to suit our own preferences anyway.

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Yeah, but to draft a new edition (which this would be) is a real job and the presentation etc would be sufficient to warrant calling it 7th Edition - or coming up with a new name (like Champions Complete).

 

I think there are always pressing issues.  Personally I think that the power system is where all the focus has been in past editions.  The core gameplay remains essentially the same as it was in 1980.  Gaming has moved on and I think some real thought into how the game runs and plays might bring the game into the 21st century.  There are lots of things about the SPD chart, heroic actions etc that might be improved.  Even the thread on END/fatigue by RDU Neil shows how things might be made better.

 

As it stands, I stick with having all editions and the next one will be my favourite. ? 

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15 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

Doc, I would support a presentation of Sixth Edition rules as you suggest; but have utterly no interest in a Seventh. The Hero System rules have been refined to a microscopic degree by this point. IMO there are no more pressing issues that need to be addressed. Any changes to the game sufficient to warrant a Seventh Edition would merely reflect the author's individual preferences. All of us Game Masters already tweak the RAW to suit our own preferences anyway.

Not to forget, if I’m not mistaken, that Steven has mentioned something about working on an APG III.

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2 hours ago, Genma said:

Not to forget, if I’m not mistaken, that Steven has mentioned something about working on an APG III.

 

Hmm... IIRC the last time Steve mentioned the APGs, he indicated he'd pretty much used up his best ideas for optional rules with APG II, and didn't feel he had enough valuable stuff left to fill another book.

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14 hours ago, LouisGoncey said:

Big Blue Book FTW! I just take Megascale and Change Enviroment from 5th and remove bonuses from taking Packages and I am good to go...

 

Another invaluable mechanic from 5th edition, IMO, is Standard Effect.

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I agree that the presentation of the system in the 6e Complete books is a vast improvement over the inscrutable reference tomes that are 6e1/6e2. However, it'll never become my go-to edition because there are simply too many low-level system changes I don't get on with. It "fixed" (or eliminated) too many things I never considered broken, and I don't like having to retrain my brain for little or no practical benefit.

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8 hours ago, dsatow said:

I personally like the CC book.  It most reminds me of 4th ed but with the current rules.  I think HERO is cursed with the 3 steps forward 2 steps back with each edition.

From my understanding, the intent of Champions Complete was to be like the "Big Blue Book" was for 4th Edition where it provided you a stand-alone RPG system for the superhero genre. Essentially, it is Hero Basic 6th Edition with an abridged version of Champions as a sourcebook to help you design your campaign.

 

You might be onto something with HERO being afflicted with the "3 steps forward and 2 steps back" syndrome you describe. For example, while 5th Edition had great cover and interior design art that supported extremely well-written sourcebooks that provided great context and background material, the giant tome of rules was a major turnoff (thank goodness for Hero Sidekick ?).

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6 hours ago, fdw3773 said:

From my understanding, the intent of Champions Complete ?was to be like the "Big Blue Book" was for 4th Edition where it provided you a stand-alone RPG system for the superhero genre. Essentially, it is Hero Basic 6th Edition with an abridged version of Champions as a sourcebook to help you design your campaign.

 

Except it isn't. It's the full 6e rules, including the irrelevant bits. Mostly it is missing the massive quantity of examples, apart from a few things that seem to really annoy people. (See zslane's comment.)

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22 minutes ago, assault said:

 

Except it isn't. It's the full 6e rules, including the irrelevant bits. Mostly it is missing the massive quantity of examples, apart from a few things that seem to really annoy people. (See zslane's comment.)

When I read the game mechanics portion of Champions Complete(CC) and compared it Hero Basic 6th Edition, it seemed comparable. I don't have Hero System 6th Edition Volumes I and II as a comparison reference to see if CC was the full 6e rules set without the examples as you described or not, but if you do, then I'll take your word for it.

 

It wouldn't be the first (or last) time I misinterpreted what was advertised and what was delivered as a product.

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There were some pretty dramatic shifts in mechanics after 2nd edition. By 4th edition power effects were no longer multiples of a characteristic, but a linear offset instead (e.g., EGO + 20 instead of EGO x 3). Many of the abilities--and the mechanics associated with them--went through dramatic changes as well, especially Martial Arts. So while the essence of the game remained pretty much the same, a lot did change from 1st to 4th editions.

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