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Those Are Some Weak Buckles and Straps (Multi-Disarm)


BoloOfEarth
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1 hour ago, Surrealone said:

 

Now, put that pistol into a retention holster (which has a strap with snap button, or Velcro … to retain the holster while running, climbing, hanging upside down, etc.) and now what do you have?  That's right, the pistol is still an OAF … it's just a holstered OAF … on which the aforementioned CE shouldn't force a DEX roll.

 

You now have bought down the OAF to IAF through an additional foci. Or if you didn't I would say that the buckle of the holster belt could break or waist hook could experience metal fatigue and break or ...

 

- E

Edited by eepjr24
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3 hours ago, Surrealone said:

A full-sized pistol is an OAF, agreed?  (Because it is obvious and quite accessible...)

 

Now, put that pistol into a retention holster (which has a strap with snap button, or Velcro … to retain the holster while running, climbing, hanging upside down, etc.) and now what do you have?  That's right, the pistol is still an OAF … it's just a holstered OAF … on which the aforementioned CE shouldn't force a DEX roll.

 

After rereading the OP’s post and that this is a Lick based thing, I myself wouldn’t worry about the straps on holsters. I mean what a lucky coincidence that the players disarms a gun and the retention strap that is usually on is off or breaks at that exact time?

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3 hours ago, eepjr24 said:

You now have bought down the OAF to IAF through an additional foci. Or if you didn't I would say that the buckle of the holster belt could break or waist hook could experience metal fatigue and break or ...

 

- E

 

No I haven't, as it's certainly not an IAF when it's in my hand.  i.e. A Focus limitation doesn't miraculously change mid-game based on whether it's in-hand or stowed in a backpack, holster, or some other means that helps retain or carry it. When you buy a detective a gun, do you buy it based on its holstered state or its in-hand state when it comes to limitations?  Most people do the latter, I suspect … even though the gun spends most of its time in a (retention, since that's what most departments issue) holster.

Ninja-Bear has a solid idea, but most of the time when foci are purchased in superheroic games, niggling details like how a holster is constructed tend to get glossed over -- at least from what I've seen.  (Now I can absolutely see Ninja-Bear's idea making sense at the heroic/agent levels of play -- but the Luck-based SFX that started this conversation is something I suspect to be more along the lines of superheroic.)

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1 minute ago, Surrealone said:

 

No I haven't, as it's certainly not an IAF when it's in my hand.  i.e. A Focus limitation doesn't miraculously change mid-game based on whether it's in-hand or stowed in a backpack, holster, or some other means that helps retain or carry it. When you buy a detective a gun, do you buy it based on its holstered state or its in-hand state when it comes to limitations?  Most people do the latter, I suspect … even though the gun spends most of its time in a (retention, since that's what most departments issue) holster.

I'll just agree to disagree here, it really comes down to your game and what you do. When people don't pay points for things they are subject to GM fiat. If you want a retention holster to do everything that you say, you pay points for it in my games. Maybe that doesn't work for you or your players would find that onerous or whatnot, but it works out fine for me and my players. I also subject my villains and NPC's to the same rules (and figure those points into balancing scenarios), if I didn't pay points for it I give the player the benefit of the doubt and if that causes trouble for me I deal with that.

 

- E

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2 hours ago, eepjr24 said:

I'll just agree to disagree here, it really comes down to your game and what you do. When people don't pay points for things they are subject to GM fiat. If you want a retention holster to do everything that you say, you pay points for it in my games. 

So female characters who carry purses in your games have to pay points for the retention/shoulder straps, then (lest there be a double-standard).  Got it.

 

And yes, I would consider that line of thinking too onerous to niggle with in a superheroic game.  But if that's how you like it in your game, that's wonderful for you!

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19 hours ago, Surrealone said:

I believe this makes good sense for Foci that are held/wielded, but not so much for those that are holstered, attached with molles, or strapped to the target a la a belt or somesuch (like, say, grenades).  Key to this is that one shouldn't have to make a DEX roll to hang onto something that's already tethered to him/her.  I realize that one might argue that untethering such things could be part of the special effect, but to that I would argue back that there's a reason targeting  foci has a penalty and that it costs more for TK to have fine manipulation … and that I do not feel it should be free to just wave both of those types of things away claiming 'special effect' …. as that's a LOT of benefit … for no cost, at all.

Thus, I think that for your (solid) idea to be justifiable, a limitation would be required that the power doesn't work on tethered/unwielded/worn foci … only on those that are 'in hand' (so-to-speak).

 

17 hours ago, eepjr24 said:

To me anything that fits that category would be IIF or OIF. If it is in a sheath, the belt can still be unbuckled or cut or break, etc if they are OAF or IAF. That is part of the discount they get for making it an accessible foci, IMO.

 

The rule is that, if the power is OAF, it can be removed in one phase.  I would say that includes the holstered gun.  Perhaps "OIF when holstered and OAF in use" should be a -3/4 limitation.

 

I think the power can be "any focus" which includes breaking straps.  The DEX roll is not necessarily to hold on to the object - it could be to catch it when it is dropped (or the buckle snaps).  It would be reasonable, an easy fix and a recognition of the reduced limitation, for Inaccessible Foci to provide a bonus, say +3?, to the DEX roll. 

 

Yes, it will be nasty if all of your powers are through an armored suit.  The point savings for that limitation were pretty substantial so there should be some drawbacks, shouldn't there?  Buy it down to OIHID and protect the joints, buckles and straps if the drawbacks of OIF are too much for the extra point savings.

 

17 hours ago, Surrealone said:

A full-sized pistol is an OAF, agreed?  (Because it is obvious and quite accessible...)

 

Now, put that pistol into a retention holster (which has a strap with snap button, or Velcro … to retain the holster while running, climbing, hanging upside down, etc.) and now what do you have?  That's right, the pistol is still an OAF … it's just a holstered OAF … on which the aforementioned CE shouldn't force a DEX roll.

 

 

15 hours ago, eepjr24 said:

You now have bought down the OAF to IAF through an additional foci. Or if you didn't I would say that the buckle of the holster belt could break or waist hook could experience metal fatigue and break or ...

 

- E

 

If it is a holstered OAF, the strap on the holster can break or become snagged, or someone can Grab and remove it in a single phase.  That is the rules of an OAF.  Nothing in the rules says you can't holster an OAF so it is secure when you run, climb, hang upside down, etc. - foci are not that easy to drop - but the rules are quite clear that an Accessible Focus is removable in one action.  The description of an inaccessible focus opens with "An Inaccessible Focus can’t be hit with a Grab or otherwise attacked for purposes of taking it away from a character while that character is in combat"  Note specifically "in combat" - not "in use".  If your focus is less accessible than "can be grabbed away or otherwise knocked away in combat", it is not Accessible.

 

9 hours ago, Surrealone said:

So female characters who carry purses in your games have to pay points for the retention/shoulder straps, then (lest there be a double-standard).  Got it.

 

If those shoulder straps mean that a focus relevant to the game which is carried in the purse "can’t be hit with a Grab or otherwise attacked for purposes of taking it away from a character while that character is in combat", then that means that focus is not Accessible.  That's what the rules say.  It does not matter whether it is rendered Grab-proof by a purse with shoulder straps, a backpack, an otherdimensional carrying case or supreme skill of the wielder.  If it cannot be Grabbed or knocked away by a ranged attack while in combat, it is not Accessible.  RAW  That ease of removal is part of why OAF cuts the cost of the power in half - it is easy to remove.  If it is not so easily removed, it is not Accessible, so it does not get as substantial a point savings.

 

Again, OAF that is only 'A' while in use seems reasonable to be -3/4 - not as limiting as full OAF, but more limiting than OIF.

 

A Super can't wear a heavy leather costume (+2 rPD and rED) or carry a 1/2d6 KA Knife without paying for it.  Why should he, or she, get to convert an OAF to an OIF when not in use with free gear?

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1 hour ago, Hugh Neilson said:

If it is a holstered OAF, the strap on the holster can break or become snagged, or someone can Grab and remove it in a single phase.  That is the rules of an OAF.  Nothing in the rules says you can't holster an OAF so it is secure when you run, climb, hang upside down, etc. - foci are not that easy to drop - but the rules are quite clear that an Accessible Focus is removable in one action.  The description of an inaccessible focus opens with "An Inaccessible Focus can’t be hit with a Grab or otherwise attacked for purposes of taking it away from a character while that character is in combat"  Note specifically "in combat" - not "in use".  If your focus is less accessible than "can be grabbed away or otherwise knocked away in combat", it is not Accessible.

For the strap to break due to the effects of the power, I believe the holster/strap would need to be targeted, not the focus, itself.  That's a much smaller target, by the way...

 

You're spot-on with your OAF versus OIF analysis … and have provided a far more solid (RAW) justification as to why eepjr's approach of calling a holstered gun an OIF makes little sense -- since it's still an OAF per RAW unless it can't be grabbed/taken in combat.

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23 hours ago, Surrealone said:

For the strap to break due to the effects of the power, I believe the holster/strap would need to be targeted, not the focus, itself.  That's a much smaller target, by the way...

 

The effect of the CE power is "character must make a DEX roll to avoid dropping/losing a focus".  That targets the character, not the focus.  The special effect, which in this case might be that the strap breaks, is separate from the mechanical effect.  That's just part of the divorcing of SFX from mechanical effect which is a fundamental of the Hero rules. The sfx of "it is strapped securely under my arm" has no mechanical advantage or drawback compared to "I always carry it in my hand" - unless the mechanics are different (e.g. it is an OIF instead of an OAF).

 

23 hours ago, Surrealone said:

You're spot-on with your OAF versus OIF analysis … and have provided a far more solid (RAW) justification as to why eepjr's approach of calling a holstered gun an OIF makes little sense -- since it's still an OAF per RAW unless it can't be grabbed/taken in combat.

 

You are taking one comment on an Inaccessible focus out of context.  Let's also note that:

 

Quote

An Accessible Focus is one that’s easily taken away from the character, or of whose benefit the character can easily be deprived. An Accessible Focus can be hit by a Grab or other nonranged attack (see Chapter Three of 6E2), or by any Ranged attack (such as a Blast or thrown rock). There’s a -2 OCV modifier on attacks against Foci, and the attacker must state before he rolls his Attack Roll that he’s trying to hit the Focus

 

Nothing says that the focus is less susceptible to immediate removal if the character is not in combat.  If it is less susceptible to removal than an Accessible focus, then the lower limitation applies, just like 13 charges is more than 12, so you get the "13 - 16" limitation, not the "9 - 12 limitation".  Once the ability is less limited than Accessible, it gets the lower limitation. 

 

So, if your holstered gun requires more than a simple Grab or thrown rock to knock it away from you, it is not accessible.  I'd allow the holster to give you the STR roll to resist the disarm (which is the standard for an OAF), but that's about as much advantage as the hlster can provide without dropping out of "accessible" (outside my own modifier above, that I'll make that "Always O Sometimes A F" a -3/4 limitation).

 

This is Hero.  If the SFX say the focus is not as readily removed as an Accessible Focus, then Accessible Focus is not the appropriate mechanic for those SFX.  If your vision of the focus used by your character is that it's not that easy to take away his gun, that vision needs to be realized by not making his gun an accessible focus.

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Wow, this is a great topic and has so many uses beyond just what the OP was presenting.  I will break my thoughts down in sections.

 

In response to the OP.  I am not a fan of CE since it seems too inexpensive for what it does.  (i.e. An Ice Slick causes everyone to fall in an area if they fail a Dex roll -3).  Therefore I would say that TK would be better suited for this.  Now if you're against STR defending against it you could use AVAD to make DEX defend against it instead.  I think that you would need the Fine Manipulation Adder to do the Disarm maneuver so that is added in.  The power would then look like this.

 

Butterfingers:  Telekinesis (20 STR), Fine Manipulation, Area Of Effect Accurate (2m Radius; +1/2), Attack Versus Alternate Defense (DEX; +1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (100 Active Points); Only Works On Very Limited Types Of Objects Handheld OAFs (-1), Only To Disarm Handheld Objects (-1) AP:100, Real Cost: 33

 

I Guess You Should Have Secured Those Better:  Telekinesis (20 STR), Fine Manipulation, Area Of Effect Accurate (2m Radius; +1/2), Attack Versus Alternate Defense (DEX; +1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1), Autofire (5 shots; +1/2), Non-Standard Attack Power (+1) (180 Active Points); Only To Disarm OAFs On Character (-1), Only Works On Limited Types Of Objects OAFs On Target (-1/2) AP: 180, Real Cost: 72

 

The first one would only work on a handheld OAF, while the second would work on any OAFs the Character had on his person.  The attacker would make a STR based roll of 4d6 and the Target would roll 1d6 per 5 points of DEX they had to determine if they retained the objects.

 

Now on to the bigger question of disarming holstered or stowed OAFs.

 

The RAW don't make a distinction between an OAF in use and one that is stowed.  I would say that logic must help us dictate this.  Let's take a holstered handgun for example.  I would assume that a handgun in a standard holster would in fact still be OAF (even if there was a velcro/snap strap on it).  For a retention holster I would agree that this would be bought to resist disarm with extra STR (or alternatively extra DCV to resist disarm).  This doesn't necessarily need to be written up.  It could just be an additional negative applied to the -2 OCV penalty imposed by Disarm based on how it is stowed.

 

Surrealone brought up the idea of items being stored in bags and such.  In my opinion this is as much a detriment to the character as someone trying to disarm it (have you ever tried to find something in a woman's purse?).  Therefore it would be handled differently (but again logically).  If stowed completely in a purse, backpack, etc. the OAF in question becomes essentially an IIF for all intents and purposes.  If the character wanted to use it they must retrieve it which could take anywhere from a full phase to a minute or more (you should see my wife's purse).  Then you are dealing with just the container with regard to disarm.  Is it an OAF itself or perhaps an OIF.  This would depend on how it is worn/carried IMHO.  A woman's purse carried on one shoulder is OAF, while one carried in a cross body fashion would be OIF.  So if someone wanted to take the OIF they would have to break the strap.  Of course there is also the case where a weapon or other OAF is concealed.  The GM must decide what negatives are applied for someone to notice the device (there are actual rules for this but I don't know where they are off the top of my head).  If they succeed with a PER roll then apply the decision for whatever they are contained in.

 

Not all of this needs to be written up, it should be handled on a case by case basis by the GM.

 

For example: Hair Trigger carries four pistols, two in Fast Draw holsters on her hips, two in cross draw shoulder holsters beneath her jacket.  The GM decides that the pistols on her hips are still OAFs, the ones below her jacket are concealed (somewhat IAF) with a -2 to PER rolls.  In addition she has a can of pepper spray in a belt case.  The pepper spray is also OAF but it is not immediately apparent that it is pepper spray.  She gets into a close quarters mix-up with Edge and knowing of her prowess with handguns decides to disarm her.  He wants to Multi-Attack a disarm to remove her weapons.  The GM has Edge's player roll a PER roll which he makes exactly.  Now he rolls to disarm the two pistols that he can see.  The GM decides that because they are fast draw holsters the standard -2 OCV for Disarm will apply.  Edge takes a total of a -4 OCV to his rolls due to the multi-attack and hits both times.  The GM adjudicates that the holsters will be STR 10 for purposes of disarm.  They both roll and Edge succeeds in liberating the pistols from their holsters....HA!  Hair Trigger takes a step back and pulls the pistols from her shoulder holsters with Fast Draw and opens up on Edge....HA BACK!

 

Just my $.02,

 

Deadman

 

 

 

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I'm late to this thread, but:

  • a pistol in a purse could be considered Concealed for detection purposes where you would force a Perception check before being able to do anything against the pistol.
  • another way to potentially buy the holster could be to buy off part of the Focus limitation as a power but limit it to provide conditions where you can still get at the pistol.
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22 hours ago, Deadman said:

Wow, this is a great topic and has so many uses beyond just what the OP was presenting.  I will break my thoughts down in sections.

 

In response to the OP.  I am not a fan of CE since it seems too inexpensive for what it does.  (i.e. An Ice Slick causes everyone to fall in an area if they fail a Dex roll -3).  Therefore I would say that TK would be better suited for this.  Now if you're against STR defending against it you could use AVAD to make DEX defend against it instead.  I think that you would need the Fine Manipulation Adder to do the Disarm maneuver so that is added in.  The power would then look like this.

 

Butterfingers:  Telekinesis (20 STR), Fine Manipulation, Area Of Effect Accurate (2m Radius; +1/2), Attack Versus Alternate Defense (DEX; +1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (100 Active Points); Only Works On Very Limited Types Of Objects Handheld OAFs (-1), Only To Disarm Handheld Objects (-1) AP:100, Real Cost: 33

 

I Guess You Should Have Secured Those Better:  Telekinesis (20 STR), Fine Manipulation, Area Of Effect Accurate (2m Radius; +1/2), Attack Versus Alternate Defense (DEX; +1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1), Autofire (5 shots; +1/2), Non-Standard Attack Power (+1) (180 Active Points); Only To Disarm OAFs On Character (-1), Only Works On Limited Types Of Objects OAFs On Target (-1/2) AP: 180, Real Cost: 72

 

The first one would only work on a handheld OAF, while the second would work on any OAFs the Character had on his person.  The attacker would make a STR based roll of 4d6 and the Target would roll 1d6 per 5 points of DEX they had to determine if they retained the objects.

 

 

So, for 72 points, the character gets the ability to disarm one or more foci based on an opposed roll which the character will generally lose 50% or more of the time?

 

May as well just buy a Blast.

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9 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

So, for 72 points, the character gets the ability to disarm one or more foci based on an opposed roll which the character will generally lose 50% or more of the time?

 

May as well just buy a Blast.

 

 

And that would have to be a standalone power.  NO WAY it'll fit into any sane VPP or Multi because of the active cost.  

BUT...one thing this suggests is that trying to target all an enemy's foci at once is seriously problematic.

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Why buy a blast when you could just miss half the time?

 

The point wasn't trying to be a rules monger and make it insanely cheap.  It was to reason from effect and create a power that would do what the OP was looking for.  If it were my game I don't think I would want someone to routinely disarm everything from a target for 20 points.  Using CE works per the RAW but in my experience it isn't very well cost balanced.  I also don't see how CE would affect things that are stowed regardless of their OAF status.

 

The CE version you cite would look like this.

 

Butterfingers:  Change Environment (-3 to DEX Roll), Characters that Miss DEX Roll Drop Handheld OAFs (+0), Area Of Effect Accurate (1m Radius; +1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (18 Active Points)

 

To me that is too inexpensive for a nearly guaranteed effect.

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6 hours ago, cptpatriot said:

I think it comes down to genre tropes. The Flash or other superspeedsters routinely disarm large groups because it's a trope of the genre.

 

For the same reason, you don't tend to see major heroes or villains getting disarmed.

 

I think that's putting the cart before the horse.  It was a plot device used so often that it became a trope.  

 

Basically it's the difference between literature and gaming.  Comics don't care about points, don't care about defining anything.  What's Flash's OCV for that multiple move-by/disarm at ridiculous speed?  Heck, how much COMBAT move does Flash have?  The writers don't care, they're doing largely whatever they like to fit the needs of the story.

 

A problem in this specific case is that, on the surface, it's reasonably simple, and there's even a very minor spell we all know from D&D that does this.  That makes it *feel* like it should be quite plausible.  Kind of like a bag of holding, tho, it's MUCH more difficult when you start having to specify the details.  And because underlying assumptions change.  D&D doesn't care about foci;  in Hero, it's a much bigger deal.  D&D also says, sure, if you want to smuggle, smuggle.  It's fine in context.  In Hero, it's negating part of the value of the limitation.  I'll also concede that it shows issues with Champions, where you're going ewwwwwwwww....that has to cost HOW much????  Like the reduced END on the Autofire here.

 

 

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On 9/14/2018 at 7:56 PM, Deadman said:

Why buy a blast when you could just miss half the time?

 

The point wasn't trying to be a rules monger and make it insanely cheap.  It was to reason from effect and create a power that would do what the OP was looking for.  If it were my game I don't think I would want someone to routinely disarm everything from a target for 20 points.  Using CE works per the RAW but in my experience it isn't very well cost balanced.  I also don't see how CE would affect things that are stowed regardless of their OAF status.

 

The CE version you cite would look like this.

 

Butterfingers:  Change Environment (-3 to DEX Roll), Characters that Miss DEX Roll Drop Handheld OAFs (+0), Area Of Effect Accurate (1m Radius; +1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (18 Active Points)

 

To me that is too inexpensive for a nearly guaranteed effect.

 

That build will fail 50% of the time against a target with a 23 DEX, which is a pretty standard Champions DEX.  It will fail more often against higher DEX targets.  Easier against lower DEX targets?  Sure - but lower DEX targets, especially those reliant on foci, tend to be mooks who are not overly challenging single target adversaries to begin with.

 

He wasn't looking to target all foci at once, by the way, but one per shot (tacking on Autofire to have the potential for targeting multiple Foci).

 

"Insanely cheap" to make a target drop a Focus?  How much did the Brick or Blaster pay for the ability to target that handheld OAF in combat and have an equal or better chance (typically far better for a handheld OAF) to knock the item out of the user's grip? 

 

Maybe we should try:

 

Butterfingers:  Blast, 4d6, Area Of Effect Accurate (2m Radius; +1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (40 Active Points); Only Works On Very Limited Types Of Objects Handheld OAFs (-1), Only To Disarm Handheld Objects (-1) AP:40, Real Cost: 13

 

That Blast has about the same  chance at disarming a 20 STR character as requiring a DEX roll at -3.  It also seems insanely cheap compared to the 72 point TK construct, but in the ballpark of the CE build.  Maybe when the other options to achieve the same effect are all comparable, it's the one that costs substantially more which is priced insanely.

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