Rule 63 Fairy Tales

[Clonus]

 Samson getting his hair cut signifies the loss of his freedom.  Rapunzel's hair cut actually grants her freedom.  I mean seriously how she going to move around in the outside world with 30 foot long hair trailing on the ground?   The Rapunzel story at its core, is the tale of a girl who is imprisoned and isolated by a jealous pseudo-parental figure.  Her door is locked but that only means her seducer will come in through the window.  Her isolation will only make her naively receptive to him.  It's a parable about the futility of trying to keep your daughter safe and pure by keeping her away from the world.

[Michael Hopcroft]

On 9/18/2018 at 3:47 PM, Lucius said:

Hm.

 

Wouldn't Samson be a sort of boy Rapunzel?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary says I already did a female Samson one time

 

21 hours ago, Clonus said:

 Samson getting his hair cut signifies the loss of his freedom.  Rapunzel's hair cut actually grants her freedom.  I mean seriously how she going to move around in the outside world with 30 foot long hair trailing on the ground?   The Rapunzel story at its core, is the tale of a girl who is imprisoned and isolated by a jealous pseudo-parental figure.  Her door is locked but that only means her seducer will come in through the window.  Her isolation will only make her naively receptive to him.  It's a parable about the futility of trying to keep your daughter safe and pure by keeping her away from the world.

Samson's hair was long because he had taken a religious vow not to cut it -- any of it, ever. His hair symbolized his obedience. When his libido got the better of him and he confided in an enemy spy, it was viewed as an affront and he lost his power. The lesson is to be careful who to trust, and also not to tick off omnipotent beings with a grudge.

 

I find it odd that movies about Samson usually portray him with short hair (or whatever style the actor normally uses). Samson was extremely hairy. He didn't get haircuts, he didn't shave, he probably didn't bathe all that often -- to modern eyes, he would look a mess. Since there were quite a few Hebrews who took vows like his, he wouldn't look quite so odd to them.

[Trencher]

You guys should try reading the comic series fables. It really turns every fairy tale on its head.

The charming prince is an asshole, the big bad wolf is a heroic protector, the seven dwarves are implied rapists, and so on and so on. It even got its telltale visual novel.

And you could try every derivative Alice in wonder land work.

And every disney movie made the last 20 years as well. Lots of deconstructions out there for those who look. 

[Clonus]

16 hours ago, Michael Hopcroft said:

 

Samson's hair was long because he had taken a religious vow not to cut it -- any of it, ever. His hair symbolized his obedience. When his libido got the better of him and he confided in an enemy spy, it was viewed as an affront and he lost his power. The lesson is to be careful who to trust, and also not to tick off omnipotent beings with a grudge.

 

I find it odd that movies about Samson usually portray him with short hair (or whatever style the actor normally uses). Samson was extremely hairy. He didn't get haircuts, he didn't shave, he probably didn't bathe all that often -- to modern eyes, he would look a mess. Since there were quite a few Hebrews who took vows like his, he wouldn't look quite so odd to them.

 

Yes I know why Samson's hair is long.  But the fact remains for that for Samson long hair=power and for Rapunzel long hair=captivity (in the traditional version of those stories) There's a bit of irony in the fact that in both cases long hair also means "obedience".  It's just that obedience is power for the man and powerlessness for the woman.  Of course the man's hair is merely long.  It isn't 30 feet long.  But he ends up imprisoned when his hair is cut, and she is freed/cast out when her hair is cut.  

[Badger]

On ‎9‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 2:00 PM, Trencher said:

You guys should try reading the comic series fables. It really turns every fairy tale on its head.

The charming prince is an asshole, the big bad wolf is a heroic protector, the seven dwarves are implied rapists, and so on and so on. It even got its telltale visual novel.

And you could try every derivative Alice in wonder land work.

And every disney movie made the last 20 years as well. Lots of deconstructions out there for those who look. 

 

The guy who wrote Alice in Wonderland, I always figured was on acid. 

[Michael Hopcroft]

On 9/22/2018 at 11:00 AM, Trencher said:

You guys should try reading the comic series fables. It really turns every fairy tale on its head.

The charming prince is an asshole, the big bad wolf is a heroic protector, the seven dwarves are implied rapists, and so on and so on. It even got its telltale visual novel.

And you could try every derivative Alice in wonder land work.

And every Disney movie made the last 20 years as well. Lots of deconstructions out there for those who look. 

 

11 hours ago, Badger said:

 

The guy who wrote Alice in Wonderland, I always figured was on acid. 

LSD didn't exist in the 1870s. But Charles Dodgson, who wrote under a pseudonym to preserve his academic credibility, did have issues. Most infamously he had a hobby of taking nude photographs of pre-pubescent girls, for "artistic" purposes. At the time, it was considered odd but not the obscenity it is viewed as today. He reportedly insisted upon there being a chaperone at all times. (On a personal note, one of my first teachers when I went to high school at a habit of drawing nudes of teenage boys. The TV program in which he taught even did a piece for the announcement show praising his artistry. That may have been his downfall, as he suddenly disappeared from the school in the middle of the first semester.)

 

To get back on topic, Alex in Wonderland would not be that different, since Alice was portrayed as too young for gender to be a concern (and not even Dodgson would have thought otherwise at the time). Still, other.later artists, including Alan Moore and The Martian author Andy Weir, had their own views on the subject. Moore described an Alice who had been raped repeatedly during her stay in Wonderland. Weir, in his short-lived welcoming Cheshire Crossing, did not specify much of what happened on her sojourn, but Alice viewed her time in Wonderland as a sort of damnation (she insists on things making sense, and in Wonderland nothing makes sense)..

[Lucius]

On ‎9‎/‎22‎/‎2018 at 5:22 PM, Clonus said:

 

Yes I know why Samson's hair is long.  But the fact remains for that for Samson long hair=power and for Rapunzel long hair=captivity (in the traditional version of those stories) There's a bit of irony in the fact that in both cases long hair also means "obedience".  It's just that obedience is power for the man and powerlessness for the woman.  Of course the man's hair is merely long.  It isn't 30 feet long.  But he ends up imprisoned when his hair is cut, and she is freed/cast out when her hair is cut.  

 

you almost make me want to write a story around both characters.

 

By the way, I KNOW that I DID create a female samson type character once on this board long ago - but I can't find it now. Can anyone help?
 

Lucius Alexander

 

Not even the palindromedary was able to track her down.

[Hermit]

For Sleeping Beauty - I just picture Prince Aron (Princess Aurora's male counterpart) being told by his father the king "When I was your age, I was earning spurs in the crusades, not sleeping all century! Get a job!"

 

 

[Michael Hopcroft]

8 hours ago, Hermit said:

For Sleeping Beauty - I just picture Prince Aron (Princess Aurora's male counterpart) being told by his father the king "When I was your age, I was earning spurs in the crusades, not sleeping all century! Get a job!"

Perhaps Aron's geas is "Never touch weapons",  which poses a problem for a medieval royal who was expected to at least hold his own in battle. Nobody using weapons in his presence, or carrying anything on their person more deadly than a knife or a dress sword (neither of which can be drawn in his presence) would be awkward at best.

 

And of course the young woman to whom he is engaged (in an arranged marriage) turns out to be a major bad*** when the chips are down  -- not just brave but resourceful and clever. She has to outwit the Sidhe Queen who has him imprisoned in lifelong slumber, and is more than up to the task.

[Hermit]

9 minutes ago, Michael Hopcroft said:

Perhaps Aron's geas is "Never touch weapons",  which poses a problem for a medieval royal who was expected to at least hold his own in battle. Nobody using weapons in his presence, or carrying anything on their person more deadly than a knife or a dress sword (neither of which can be drawn in his presence) would be awkward at best.

 

And of course the young woman to whom he is engaged (in an arranged marriage) turns out to be a major bad*** when the chips are down  -- not just brave but resourceful and clever. She has to outwit the Sidhe Queen who has him imprisoned in lifelong slumber, and is more than up to the task.

 

 

Good story

 

But I still like my joke.

*Holds onto illusion he's funny with hope*

 

 

[Clonus]

On 9/25/2018 at 9:05 PM, Michael Hopcroft said:

Perhaps Aron's geas is "Never touch weapons",  which poses a problem for a medieval royal who was expected to at least hold his own in battle. Nobody using weapons in his presence, or carrying anything on their person more deadly than a knife or a dress sword (neither of which can be drawn in his presence) would be awkward at best.

 

And of course the young woman to whom he is engaged (in an arranged marriage) turns out to be a major bad*** when the chips are down  -- not just brave but resourceful and clever. She has to outwit the Sidhe Queen who has him imprisoned in lifelong slumber, and is more than up to the task.

 

The craziest part of the earliest recorded version of Sleeping Beauty was the part where all spinning wheels were banned.  Words can not express the damage that would to an economy in those days.  

[Badger]

On ‎9‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 2:00 PM, Clonus said:

 Samson getting his hair cut signifies the loss of his freedom.  Rapunzel's hair cut actually grants her freedom.  I mean seriously how she going to move around in the outside world with 30 foot long hair trailing on the ground?   The Rapunzel story at its core, is the tale of a girl who is imprisoned and isolated by a jealous pseudo-parental figure.  Her door is locked but that only means her seducer will come in through the window.  Her isolation will only make her naively receptive to him.  It's a parable about the futility of trying to keep your daughter safe and pure by keeping her away from the world.

 

I've always thought it was a good thing I never had a daughter.   (though, I would go with the "commit seppuku on her 13th birthday option" )

[Badger]

On ‎9‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 8:51 AM, Michael Hopcroft said:

 

LSD didn't exist in the 1870s. But Charles Dodgson, who wrote under a pseudonym to preserve his academic credibility, did have issues. Most infamously he had a hobby of taking nude photographs of pre-pubescent girls, for "artistic" purposes. At the time, it was considered odd but not the obscenity it is viewed as today. He reportedly insisted upon there being a chaperone at all times. (On a personal note, one of my first teachers when I went to high school at a habit of drawing nudes of teenage boys. The TV program in which he taught even did a piece for the announcement show praising his artistry. That may have been his downfall, as he suddenly disappeared from the school in the middle of the first semester.)

 

To get back on topic, Alex in Wonderland would not be that different, since Alice was portrayed as too young for gender to be a concern (and not even Dodgson would have thought otherwise at the time). Still, other.later artists, including Alan Moore and The Martian author Andy Weir, had their own views on the subject. Moore described an Alice who had been raped repeatedly during her stay in Wonderland. Weir, in his short-lived welcoming Cheshire Crossing, did not specify much of what happened on her sojourn, but Alice viewed her time in Wonderland as a sort of damnation (she insists on things making sense, and in Wonderland nothing makes sense)..

 

Yeah, to be honest, I always did get a bit of a "Michael Jackson" vibe from the writer of Alice in Wonderland.  For what it is worth.

 

Edit: And when I was little I got freaked out by the Disney movie, which was definitely not helped when I came across a certain Tom Petty music video

[Michael Hopcroft]

On 9/29/2018 at 11:17 AM, Clonus said:

 

The craziest part of the earliest recorded version of Sleeping Beauty was the part where all spinning wheels were banned.  Words can not express the damage that would to an economy in those days.  

There are a lot of traditional stories where rulers do not think of the implications for their more dramatic proclamations.  Can you imagine what neighboring kingdoms would think if the Heir Apparent chose his bride the way the various Prince Charmings selected their brides?

 

Marriages in the Middle Ages and Renaissance were so different from marriages now that we almost have no frame of reference with which to discuss it.  Arrangement of course is a major issue, but then there is the double-standard concerning faithfulness on the part of women vs that of men. 

[Michael Hopcroft]

19 hours ago, Badger said:

 

Yeah, to be honest, I always did get a bit of a "Michael Jackson" vibe from the writer of Alice in Wonderland.  For what it is worth.

 

Edit: And when I was little I got freaked out by the Disney movie, which was definitely not helped when I came across a certain Tom Petty music video

for some reason, the Disney version strikes me as the least likely cinematic adaptation to serve as nightmare fuel. Which means that the other versions must be especially traumatic.

[Lucius]

8 hours ago, Michael Hopcroft said:

for some reason, the Disney version strikes me as the least likely cinematic adaptation to serve as nightmare fuel. Which means that the other versions must be especially traumatic.

 

The thing is, Wonderland (in the book (also Looking Glass Land)) runs on a combination of math-logic and dream-logic.

 

For example, Alice finds herself in a store of some sort talking to the shopkeeper, who is a sheep. No big deal to talk to a sheet, I know. But she sees something on a high shelf that makes her curious and she tries to look closer, but can't focus on the object of her attention. It keeps turning out to be one shelf above the shelf she is looking at. She keeps looking up and up and can never really catch it.  It's never made explicit but apparently this shop stocks the abstract concept of Infinity...

 

Very abruptly, Alice is no longer in a store but in a boat, rowing it, still with the sheep who continues the conversation as if nothing has changed. Or as if it's perfectly normal to be in a store one second and in a boat on a river the next. This is the kind of transition (or lack of transition) that occurs in dreams and nowhere else in normal human experience.

 

Now try to imagine being awake, with your normal waking mind, and processing an essentially dream-like experience. Coming out the other side of that, you will probably, as someone up thread put it, "INSIST on things making sense." Either that or go stark raving mad.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Introducing a palindromedary to a cat in Cheshire

 

 

[Michael Hopcroft]

13 hours ago, Lucius said:

Now try to imagine being awake, with your normal waking mind, and processing an essentially dream-like experience. Coming out the other side of that, you will probably, as someone up thread put it, "INSIST on things making sense." Either that or go stark raving mad.

That is the premise of Cheshire Crossing. Alice, Wendy Darling and Dorothy Gale have all been to other worlds, not have their stories believed, and placed in asylums. A famous physicist founds an asylum and has them brought there so he can learn how they did it. the result is a sprawling and never finished adventure that involves Wonderland, Oz and Neverland interacting as the girls visit each others' alternate universes. Wendy has learned to fight in Wonderland, Dorothy is pretty resourceful, and Alice wants nothing to do with the exercise (because, as mentioned, Wonderland was Hell in her eyes).

 

The series ended abruptly and eventually Andy Weir would, as I mentioned, write the best-selling science fiction novel of the decade (The Martian).

[Lucius]

 

I loved Cheshire Crossing, and deeply regret that it was abandoned.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary Crossing - Both ways

[Badger]

On ‎9‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 11:22 PM, Michael Hopcroft said:

for some reason, the Disney version strikes me as the least likely cinematic adaptation to serve as nightmare fuel. Which means that the other versions must be especially traumatic.

 

I haven't watched it since I was a kid, but I think in the Disney version's case, the Cheshire Cat was the most bothersome to me.

 

As for the Tom Petty video, well, that shouldn't be hard to figure out.

[Clonus]

Andersen's Princess and the Pea was already kind of freaky because he left out the part where the "princess" was actually outwitting the insane queen.  Even then the idea that extreme sensitivity to even the most minor discomfort would be regarded as the mark of a prince...well it wouldn't really work.  Of course that's part and parcel of Andersen's creepy fondness for inflicting suffering on teenage girls.  

[Lucius]

One thing that strikes me about adaptations of Alice in Wonderland -

 

No matter how faithful or otherwise to the original, every one of them seems to have felt compelled to drag something in from Through the Looking Glass - not the same thing in each case, but always there was something.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

House of the Palindromedary

[Pariah]

On 9/21/2018 at 12:00 PM, Clonus said:

 Samson getting his hair cut signifies the loss of his freedom.  Rapunzel's hair cut actually grants her freedom.  I mean seriously how she going to move around in the outside world with 30 foot long hair trailing on the ground?   The Rapunzel story at its core, is the tale of a girl who is imprisoned and isolated by a jealous pseudo-parental figure.  Her door is locked but that only means her seducer will come in through the window.  Her isolation will only make her naively receptive to him.  It's a parable about the futility of trying to keep your daughter safe and pure by keeping her away from the world.

 

On 9/30/2018 at 1:58 AM, Badger said:

 

I've always thought it was a good thing I never had a daughter.   (though, I would go with the "commit seppuku on her 13th birthday option" )

 

If you're familiar with the musical Into The Woods, the relationship between the Witch and Rapunzel explores this issue in some depth (e.g., "Children Will Listen").