How would you write up a ranged power that simulates epilepsy?

[Major Tom 2009]

How would you write up a ranged power that, when used, induces a state similar to grand-mal epilepsy in 

its victim (or victims, if written up with an area-effect advantage)?

 

 

Major Tom 2009

[Steve Long]

Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately) I don't know much about the exact effects of epilepsy, so before I could begin to comment I'd have to do some research. But I expect someone else here on the boards already has that info based on real-life experience, so I'll leave it to one of them to respond to your question.

[eepjr24]

First off, assuming you are using 6e.

 

I would go with a Mental Blast of sufficient strength to render the victim unconscious. You can base this on CON if it fits (i.e. it is more a physical interruption of the synapses). Then link a smaller mental blast with Constant and Uncontrolled to it to keep them unconscious for the desired period (typically a minute or more for a gran mal). Then link a small amount of TK (3 STR maybe?) with constant and uncontrolled on it. All of it needs to be all or nothing I suspect for the effect to work properly?

 

There are other ways to do it, that's just what I would start with.

 

- E

[Doc Democracy]

Steve has the right of it though, the first thing you need to do is define the impact of a Grand Mal seizure. Once you have done that you can think about how you achieve that.

 

otherwise you might as well use an all or nothing Transform...

[dsatow]

I'd probably set it as a mind control assuming the seizure has no lasting side effects other than incapacitating the target.  Maybe with based on Con or AVAD and/or a set effect.  Like Steve I have no real reference without research, but that is my knee jerk reaction.

[mallet]

I would say maybe an Entangle? If fact doesn't one of the examples in the rules (can't remember is it is in 5th or 6th) have something similar, causing seizurers using the Mental Paralysis options. 

[Major Tom 2009]

On ‎10‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 10:25 AM, Doc Democracy said:

Steve has the right of it though, the first thing you need to do is define the impact of a Grand Mal seizure. Once you have done that you can think about how you achieve that.

 

otherwise you might as well use an all or nothing Transform...

 

The impression that I've always had regarding grand-mal seizures (from both TV/movie sources as well as the printed word where

characters who suffer from epilepsy have a part in the story; both the film and novelized versions of The Andromeda Strain come to

mind in this regard), is that the victim reacts as if they're being subjected to an electrical current somewhere between a TASER and

a household electrical cord in terms of output -- violent muscular spasms, followed by physical exhaustion.

 

Does that sound like it might be a DEX Drain with a linked STUN Drain?

 

Major Tom 2009 

[Doc Democracy]

A fit with exhaustion that lasts a minute is a small thing out of combat but a game changer in combat. In real life there is also the emotional shock.

 

If this is a one-off NPC/environmental obstacle then it could be interesting but not sure I would allow it for a character.

 

I think you are right, would be inclined to go with some kind of mental paralysis as previously suggested, along with both a short term END drain alongside a REC drain with a delayed recovery. Not cheap but it should be debilitating.

 

you might think a full on drain attack using a SPD drain, perhaps an ongoing gradual SPD drain where then END/REC drains kick in when SPD = 0.

[massey]

When trying to duplicate a real life event, you need to decide if you want to try to reproduce the actual effects, or if you want a cinematic version of it.

 

As Steve said, fortunately I don't have any experience with actual seizures.  I've seen them on TV though.  I have a few different suggestions for how to represent it:

 

1)  Ego Attack -- buy it up to sufficient levels that you can knock your opponent unconscious.  The special effect is that they flop on the ground, having a seizure.  The attack doesn't actually have to last for minutes, in comic book terms we are only going to see them for a few panels.  The attack takes them out of the fight, and when we see them they are jerking around uncontrollably.  Somebody yells "oh no!  Bob!" and then rushes over to help.  After that, Bob is offscreen.  For our purposes, Bob might as well just be unconscious.  The seizure is over when the person recovers to a positive Stun total.

 

2)  Mind Control -- "flop around like you're having a seizure".  This power has the advantage that it can make someone continue to act over many phases.  They are jerking around and are obviously still conscious, as opposed to an Ego Attack in which the spasms are just the special effect.  It has the downside that a good breakout roll will end the seizure immediately, and the person suffers no ill effects after it is over.  They aren't hurt or anything.

 

3)  Mental Entangle -- similar to Mind Control, this can take somebody out of the fight.  It has the same problems that once somebody breaks out, they aren't harmed by it.  No "damage" was done.  But while they're in it, they can't really do anything.

 

4)  Flash vs all sense groups -- this will completely incapacitate the target, as long as it is strong enough to get through.  Flash their hearing, touch, sight, everything.  They can try to lash out (firing blindly), but they should have trouble even retaining their footing.  Like Ego Attack, this doesn't actually make them flop around on the floor, but it is incapacitating in that they can't intelligently interact with the rest of the world anymore.  On the downside, somebody with polarized goggles or ear protection might resist some of the more important parts of the attack, which means it won't always work right in the game.

 

5)  Telekinesis -- just grab them and shake the crap out of them.  This actually works really well in a lot of ways.  It incapacitates them, it does damage, it makes them violently shake around.  The disadvantage is that really strong people can be immune to your seizures.

 

 

If you want to be versatile, I'd suggest a Multipower with one or all of the above powers in it.  Your "Induce seizures" Multipower has a lot of different options based on your target.  You select which effect you want to inflict, and you can cycle through them and layer effects on top of one another.  If you're going after a brick, maybe you start with Mind Control or Flash because they've got a lot of Stun and you're hoping to one-shot them.  If you're after a mentalist, perhaps Telekinesis will work better because they aren't that physically strong.  Visually, all the effects look pretty much the same.  On the comic book page, you wouldn't really know which effect the person had used -- you'd just know that people fall down and shake when it is used.

[Asperion]

Others have the essential core idea of these seizures, but they are not stating the entire ability correctly.  There are several things going on at the same time and the average seizure lasts around ten minutes and will KO even the most powerful for several hours.  During the actual seizure, I would create it as a powerful TK that is uncontrolled with a lim "only to induce seizures".  There would be an attached Drain (END+STUN) large enough to render the standard person unconscious.

[Cassandra]

Mental Paralysis would work. 

 

Entangle 2d6 DEF 2, Based on EGO Combat Value (+1), Takes No Damage From Physical Attacks (+1/4), Works Against EGO, Not STR (+1/4)

[Scott Ruggels]

2 hours ago, Cassandra said:

Mental Paralysis would work. 

 

Entangle 2d6 DEF 2, Based on EGO Combat Value (+1), Takes No Damage From Physical Attacks (+1/4), Works Against EGO, Not STR (+1/4)

Bingo!

[Beast]

Having witnessed my best friend from high school have 1 right in front of me just after from waking up
here is my discription
1 he was stunned ,not unconscience (CE w/ Stunning lots if minuses vs Con, long lasting 1 to 5 min)
2 this lasted about 1 min or 2 and then he was KO'd(stun drain uncontrolled continous during the CE ,1 or 2d6 per phase)

3 he was groggy for about a 1/2hr(maybe delay return rate

 

this is pretty much a battle ending effect
 

[Tom Cowan]

Mental Paralysis linked to a drain (stun drain uncontrolled continuous ) with a long return rate?

[doccowie]

I think this is a classic HERO reality vs game effect issue. Describing a grandmal seizure in pathological terms, it sounds like a pretty easy thing to set off - all you need is a small electrical charge across the brain, which compared to the level of physics altering powers that heroes are hurling about, sounds pretty straightforward, right?

The problem is that quite a few areas of the body are equally vulnerable to small changes - increasing the pressure on a couple of arteries in the brain will either give you an ischaemic stroke or a haemorrhage depending on how you do it. Running an electric current across the heart may well throw it into fibrillation. Altering a few of the components of blood can cause all sorts of problems very fast. Etc, etc.

So, it is easy to be seduced by something that sounds simple, but has a big game effect. HERO works on a points for effect basis, not a points for clever use of mystic energies on areas of physiological weakness.

 

Ultimately, it's not a medical degree you need, it's a clear idea of the effect you want to happen in game, a HERO rulebook and a chat with your friendly GM.

(All the above ideas seem sensible, I particularly like the mental entangle + linked END and/or STUN drain.)

[dsatow]

I would like to interject with the mind control, the command could also indicate that the target expend end in the spasms.  Thus the target may be using its full strength and pushing (10+ end per phase).  This wouldn't require a secondary attack to simulate the STUN and END loss.

 

[doccowie]

Re mind control - a grand mal fit is not something you can induce voluntarily just because you are mind controlled. It is a physical process.

Obviously you can mind control someone to mimic a seizure ("Lie on ground, do not respond to or remember external stimuli, thrash around").

 

I'm interested at what point we see the extent of mind control to force modifying autonomic functions? Can you tell people to cease breathing until they pass out? Slow and stop their heart? Would it make a difference if someone had studied the yogic arts (certainly they seem to be able to slow and speed up their heart while meditating)?

 

Practically speaking a Mind Control +30 is already taking someone out of a fight until they break out , so I suppose it is a bit theoretical :-)

 

 

[Hugh Neilson]

On 10/8/2018 at 7:39 PM, Beast said:

Having witnessed my best friend from high school have 1 right in front of me just after from waking up
here is my discription
1 he was stunned ,not unconscience (CE w/ Stunning lots if minuses vs Con, long lasting 1 to 5 min)
2 this lasted about 1 min or 2 and then he was KO'd(stun drain uncontrolled continous during the CE ,1 or 2d6 per phase)

3 he was groggy for about a 1/2hr(maybe delay return rate

 

this is pretty much a battle ending effect
 

 

Stunning - that makes me think of the APG Change Environment - Target Stunned option.  That might wok.  It needs a reasonably common defense (target would be immune for whatever reason), requires a to hit roll (make it based on ECV if desired), but fo an effect of ongoing STUNning could be pretty effective.  Link it up with an END/STUN drain if desired.

[dsatow]

14 hours ago, doccowie said:

Re mind control - a grand mal fit is not something you can induce voluntarily just because you are mind controlled. It is a physical process.

Obviously you can mind control someone to mimic a seizure ("Lie on ground, do not respond to or remember external stimuli, thrash around").

 

I'm interested at what point we see the extent of mind control to force modifying autonomic functions? Can you tell people to cease breathing until they pass out? Slow and stop their heart? Would it make a difference if someone had studied the yogic arts (certainly they seem to be able to slow and speed up their heart while meditating)?

 

Practically speaking a Mind Control +30 is already taking someone out of a fight until they break out , so I suppose it is a bit theoretical :-)

 

 

 

Practically speaking, Mind Control is just the name of the mechanic.  You could base it on CON or possibly other stat with GM approval.

 

As for making a person stop breathing, you should be able to.  After all, the rules do allow you to hold your breath until you pass out.  Stopping autonomic functions would be probably some other attack.

 

[doccowie]

Thanks dsatow, that's an interesting way to look at it ?

[Surrealone]

On ‎10‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 7:37 PM, Major Tom 2009 said:

How would you write up a ranged power that, when used, induces a state similar to grand-mal epilepsy in its victim (or victims, if written up with an area-effect advantage)?

The comedian in me wants to respond with one word: spastically.

[Christopher]

Let's first see what Wikipedia has on the mater:
Epilepsi:" Epilepsy is a group of neurological disorders characterized by epileptic seizures.^[10][11] Epileptic seizures are episodes that can vary from brief and nearly undetectable periods to long periods of vigorous shaking.^[1] These episodes can result in physical injuries, including occasionally broken bones.^[1] In epilepsy, seizures tend to recur and, as a rule, have no immediate underlying cause.^[10] Isolated seizures that are provoked by a specific cause such as poisoning are not deemed to represent epilepsy.^[12] People with epilepsy may be treated differently in various areas of the world and experience varying degrees of social stigma due to their condition. "

So there is a strong range of severety going from "barely noticeable" over "incapacitating" to "literally bonebreaking".

I have no definition of "grand mal" seizure, so I am asuming you want "incapacitating" to you "literally breaking your bones with sheer muscle power".

 

There is actually a fairly common cause seizuire this in real life: Electricity.
A Taser is clearly incapacitating via a eletricity induced seizure/lasting nervous system effect

As is conducting high amounts of electircity through your body

Basically electricity seizure is caused by "jamming  the bodies wires" with a strong electrical current:
" Nerve cells communicate to each other by acting as “transducers:” creating electrical signals (very small voltages and currents) in response to the input of certain chemical compounds called neurotransmitters, and releasing neurotransmitters when stimulated by electrical signals. If electric current of sufficient magnitude is conducted through a living creature (human or otherwise), its effect will be to override the tiny electrical impulses normally generated by the neurons, overloading the nervous system and preventing both reflex and volitional signals from being able to actuate muscles. Muscles triggered by an external (shock) current will involuntarily contract, and there’s nothing the victim can do about it. "

 

Unlike electrically induced seizures, there is no danger from the electrical current however. Electrical current has potentially dangerous longterm and side effects:
- Burning of tissues all over the body due to resistance induced heating.

- Denaturizing your blood turning it into something toxic not able to deliver oxygen (via heat and electrolysis effects).
- Literally cooking your nervous system (as it is not designed for such currents)

 

So there you have it: If you could limit seizures to the non-autonomous nervous system, it would ahve incapcaitating effects like tasers. Without any of the life and longterm danger of electrical current induced seizures.

[unclevlad]

Grand mal seizures can also cause memory loss.  I quite literally remember almost nothing from when I was a kid, until my seizures reduced.  Even as a teen, I didn't remember.

 

I wouldn't do this as a Drain, I'd do it as a Transform because the All or Nothing aspect feels more correct.  You either induce the seizure or you don't, because when in a seizure, the effect is severe.  That said, I also like the Mental Illusion approach...NOT Mind Control, as you can't tell him what to do, you're imposing a mental state on him.  BUT, I'd probably argue for EGO+40 required...EGO+30 to reach "victim no longer interacts with environment" and the +10 to take stun damage.

[Christopher]

3 hours ago, unclevlad said:

Grand mal seizures can also cause memory loss.  I quite literally remember almost nothing from when I was a kid, until my seizures reduced.  Even as a teen, I didn't remember.

 

I wouldn't do this as a Drain, I'd do it as a Transform because the All or Nothing aspect feels more correct.  You either induce the seizure or you don't, because when in a seizure, the effect is severe.  That said, I also like the Mental Illusion approach...NOT Mind Control, as you can't tell him what to do, you're imposing a mental state on him.  BUT, I'd probably argue for EGO+40 required...EGO+30 to reach "victim no longer interacts with environment" and the +10 to take stun damage. 

For Herogaems terms, that sounds more like a minor side effect. Either the Physiological or Psychological Trauma caused memory disruptions.

 

If you want to paly up this aspect:

Mind Control.

Simple Command: Can not move.

IIRC, if you got EGO+10/20/30 + 20, you got the target not remembering being under control. Or possibly what happened while under control? It has been a while since I read that part and I can not remember if it was general Mental Powers or Mind Control Specific.

[unclevlad]

Mind Control is a very bad fit...not completely wrong, but Mental Illusions is a better fit.  Plus, Mental Illusions DOES support doing Stun...even Stun and Body...which Mind Control cannot do.  To be sure, they generally will both work, they're the same cost, and the fundamental level of effort is more or less the same.  I daresay people prefer Mind Control because it's probably the more generally useful power;  not only can you neutralize someone, but you can actually turncoat them.  There may be ways to do this with a mental illusion but it's gonna be MUCH harder.  

 

Oh, and +20 Illusion can force the victim to think the illusion was real after it dissipates, which is better.  +10 Mind Control, vic doesn't remember actions...kind of meaningless.  +20, vic remembers AND thinks they were natural.  So there's more things you can do to hose the vic...probably including having them debilitated for a while after the illusion's gone.  WIth Mind Control, you can do that with a command like "run all out until you collapse"...but that's rather more obvious and not at all natural.  

 

Come to think, if you want to induce something that visually looks like a grand mal seizure...which would be a really good idea, because someone just standing there paralyzed is clearly under SOME kind of outside influence...I think that would only be possible with Mental Illusions, and that'd be at the +40, do Stun, level.  AND...do enough Stun and you'll get the poor sucker pulling a Rip van Winkle.