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BoloOfEarth

Dimensional Lock

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If this has already been addressed, please post a link so I can check the prior discussion.

 

How would one stop others from using Extra-dimensional Movement in an area?  I'm thinking along the line of D&D's Dimensional Lock spell (20-foot / 6m radius)

 

My first thought was a Suppress, but that gets IMO ungodly expensive, since you have to suppress the entire Power + Advantages for fixed-cost powers, and even a single-dimension Dimensional Gate** can be upwards of 60 AP (thus requiring at least 20d6 Suppress - add on AoE and you're talking at least 300 AP!)

 

I get that Dimensional Lock is an 8th level spell in D&D, so I would expect it to be costly.  But 300+ AP seems a bit excessive for what you're getting.

 

Any thoughts?

 

** For example, Extra-Dimensional Movement, to any corresponding location in a single dimension, Constant (+1/2), AoE (2m radius; +1/4), Usable Simultaneous (+1/2), Half END (+1/4); Gate (-1/2) = 67 AP, 45 RP.

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This look is just throwing something out there; I'm on a lunch break, so understand that I have thought - none--of this through. 

 

Do you have to surpress all of the points to make the power unusable?  Is it possible to surpress enough of them that it won't work?  I assume so, but I can't recall what the new rules encyclopedia says.  

 

If you have an area effect, continuous, persistant 0 end, cumulative dispel cast on this zone of yours, and it simply stays on, would not anyone entering that zone be subject to the level of the power in effect at that moment? 

 

Doing it that way (if permissible) would create a single-location with a powerful surpress in effect. 

 

 

Got to get back to work. 

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3 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

Hmm... personally I don't have a problem with the Suppress cost, but in the spirit of helpfulness... I'd have to think about and research how this might work, but my thought is, maybe Barrier or Entangle with the Transdimensional Advantage?

2 hours ago, dmjalund said:

Barrier - Stops Teleport - Extradimensional

 

I thought about Barrier with Transdimensional, but AIUI that just means there's a barrier (or an entangle) in the other dimension as well.  I'm not sure it would stop anyone from going between dimensions.  They're simply englobed (or entangled) when they arrive.

 

3 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

Do you have to surpress all of the points to make the power unusable?  Is it possible to surpress enough of them that it won't work?  I assume so, but I can't recall what the new rules encyclopedia says.  

 

If you have an area effect, continuous, persistant 0 end, cumulative dispel cast on this zone of yours, and it simply stays on, would not anyone entering that zone be subject to the level of the power in effect at that moment? 

 

Doing it that way (if permissible) would create a single-location with a powerful surpress in effect.

 

Unfortunately, per 6E1:138,

If a Power is not bought in increments (for example, Desolidification, which costs a flat 40 Character Points), a character using a negative Adjustment Power to reduce that Power or Characteristic must remove enough Character Points to remove the entire Power (including Adders and Advantages).

So yeah, you need to suppress (or drain) the whole kit and kaboodle.

 

Hmmm... but a AoE Dispel might do the trick.  (Maybe trigger with automatic reset rather than Constant + Cumulative?)  I'll have to look into that.

 

1 hour ago, archer said:

You could Mind Control an area with one command "don't use extra-dimensional movement" and come up with it being cheaper than 300 AP. :D

LOL.  Interesting idea.

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Dispel X-Dim Movement 20d6, AoE (6m Radius; +1/2), 0 END (+1/2), Persistent (+1/4), Trigger (resets automatically in no time; +1).  As soon as someone tries to open a dimensional portal, it goes off and (hopefully) shuts them down.  At 195 AP it's still pretty costly, but much more reasonable IMO. 

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43 minutes ago, BoloOfEarth said:

I thought about Barrier with Transdimensional, but AIUI that just means there's a barrier (or an entangle) in the other dimension as well.  I'm not sure it would stop anyone from going between dimensions.  They're simply englobed (or entangled) when they arrive.

That's why i included "Stops Teleport"- and yes, you will probably have to englobe an area.

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Here's an annoying way to do it.  I'm just thinking out of the box here, so take it with a grain of interdimensional salt.  

 

Dimensional Travel usable against other 1 dimension target triggered area of effect.  

 

Thus if they attempt to dimensional travel out of the area, they trigger the dimensional travel and are back to this dimension.

 

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12 hours ago, dmjalund said:

That's why i included "Stops Teleport"- and yes, you will probably have to englobe an area.

 

But Teleportation and Extra-Dimensional Movement are two separate powers.  Stopping teleport out of an area within multiple dimensions (which is what a Barrier, Stops Teleport, Transdimensional would do) doesn't stop someone from skipping from one dimension to another, within that area bounded by the Barrier.  At least as I read those Advantages. 

 

Let's say Mister Wizard englobes Portal Guy in a Barrier as you propose.  Now, Portal Guy can still teleport within that globe, he just can't teleport outside it.  And if he skips over to Dimension X, he'll find the globe there as well (due to the Transdimensional advantage).  The GM might rule that being englobed means that he has to break the Barrier open before he can X-Dim Move past it, but that's not necessarily a given from the RAW.

 

I'll post a question to the 6E Rules forum.  Maybe I'm wrong.

 

 

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On 10/11/2018 at 7:50 AM, BoloOfEarth said:

I'll post a question to the 6E Rules forum.  Maybe I'm wrong.

 

Per Steve:

Quote

The difficulty here arises from the fact that we need another tool in the toolbox -- Stops Teleport + Transdimensional isn't going to get you what you want. Instead, we need a new Advantage:  Cannot Be Escaped With Extra-Dimensional Movement (+1/4). That solves the problem nicely.

 

Alternately, the GM might allow a character to create an Anti-Dimensional Travel field using Change Environment. Establish a cost for that effect (let's say 20 points, just off the top of my head), apply Area Of Effect, and voila. ;)

 

I'm personally not a fan of the CE route, but am perfectly okay with a new Advantage.  Yes, this also requires GM buy-in.  But maybe it will make its way into APG-3.  ;)

 

(Edited because I just realized I put my own comment inside the quote, making it look like Steve said it.)

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You shouldn't have to pay 300 pts or even 195 pts to stop a power that possibly only costs 20 or 30 points to buy. What about Extra-Dimensional TP, 1 level Megascale, Usuable as Attack, only to teleport object away/back the way the came? Can throw on charges that last 1 turn/hour/etc.

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On 10/10/2018 at 6:28 PM, BoloOfEarth said:

How would one stop others from using Extra-dimensional Movement in an area?  I'm thinking along the line of D&D's Dimensional Lock spell (20-foot / 6m radius) 

First let us look at what it affects:
We have Projection:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/astralProjection.htm
Defense based on "stutter projection":

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blink.htm
Megascale Teleport (400+ meters):

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionDoor.htm
Desolid + Invisible (wich might fall under EDM):
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/etherealJaunt.htm
Desolid + Invisible for the group:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/etherealness.htm

A gate version of Planar Shift/Summoning Spell:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm

A "wish into the cornfield" spell with sensible limits:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/maze.htm

Plain EDM:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planeShift.htm
Megascale Teleport with Limits:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shadowWalk.htm

And "Anywhere in this Plane" Megascale Teleport:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleport.htm

 

Many of those spells are not (easily) to replicate exactly in Hero. So mostly it seems about Teleport and Summoning spells.

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4 minutes ago, Christopher said:

First let us look at what it affects:
We have Projection:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/astralProjection.htm
Defense based on "stutter projection":

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blink.htm
Megascale Teleport (400+ meters):

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionDoor.htm
Desolid + Invisible (wich might fall under EDM):
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/etherealJaunt.htm
Desolid + Invisible for the group:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/etherealness.htm

A gate version of Planar Shift/Summoning Spell:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm

A "wish into the cornfield" spell with sensible limits:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/maze.htm

Plain EDM:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planeShift.htm
Megascale Teleport with Limits:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shadowWalk.htm

And "Anywhere in this Plane" Megascale Teleport:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleport.htm

 

Many of those spells are not (easily) to replicate exactly in Hero. So mostly it seems about Teleport and Summoning spells.

In D&D, most of these things have one thing in common:

"Extradimensional Special Effect": So a AoE Drain/Dispel aimed at the Special Effect might work. Of course it would be hellishly expensive and far from the D&D absolute.

 

On 10/12/2018 at 2:30 PM, Tech said:

You shouldn't have to pay 300 pts or even 195 pts to stop a power that possibly only costs 20 or 30 points to buy. What about Extra-Dimensional TP, 1 level Megascale, Usuable as Attack, only to teleport object away/back the way the came? Can throw on charges that last 1 turn/hour/etc. 

You should have to pay a lot to interefere with a baserule of the setting.
It was the GM that allowed EDM to begin with.
And to be bought by this character in particular.

 

That can also mean EDM is used by certain characters to circumvent Teleportation blocks.

 

As a GM of course you have to option to just declare "EDM can not be useable in a room encaved with Material/Energy X" and then define a how expensive it is to make that Energy with with Change Environment.

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3 hours ago, Christopher said:

In D&D, most of these things have one thing in common:

"Extradimensional Special Effect": So a AoE Drain/Dispel aimed at the Special Effect might work. Of course it would be hellishly expensive and far from the D&D absolute.

 

You should have to pay a lot to interefere with a baserule of the setting.
It was the GM that allowed EDM to begin with.
And to be bought by this character in particular.

 

That can also mean EDM is used by certain characters to circumvent Teleportation blocks.

 

As a GM of course you have to option to just declare "EDM can not be useable in a room encaved with Material/Energy X" and then define a how expensive it is to make that Energy with with Change Environment.

 

Why should you have to pay alot?  I'm replaying to Bolo who set no campaign guidelines to his original request.  A power to prevent EDM that costs huge amounts goes against something one of the Champions books said. I don't have it in front of me so I'll paraphrase "The defense should be cheaper than the attack."  As we all know, a power can be built many different ways with different costs. Bolo was general but specific only in trying to emulate an 8th lvl spell. However, you seem to be very specific about a campaign situation (It was the GM that allowed EDM to being with. And to be brought by this character in particular) so I feel like I'm missing something since Bolo didn't mention any particular campaign, GM or character. I'm a bit confused.

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1 minute ago, Christopher said:

The "Dimensional Lock" is the attack. Conditions are met.

 

As I see it, the original dimensioner is the attacker, with the power to be created defending against being, oh, invaded?

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5 minutes ago, Tech said:

 

As I see it, the original dimensioner is the attacker, with the power to be created defending against being, oh, invaded?

Running away with EDM is propably the least offensive action someone can take.

 

Otherwise all movement powers require a really cheap way to disable them.

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20 hours ago, Tech said:

 

Why should you have to pay alot?  I'm replaying to Bolo who set no campaign guidelines to his original request.  A power to prevent EDM that costs huge amounts goes against something one of the Champions books said. I don't have it in front of me so I'll paraphrase "The defense should be cheaper than the attack."  As we all know, a power can be built many different ways with different costs. Bolo was general but specific only in trying to emulate an 8th lvl spell. However, you seem to be very specific about a campaign situation (It was the GM that allowed EDM to being with. And to be brought by this character in particular) so I feel like I'm missing something since Bolo didn't mention any particular campaign, GM or character. I'm a bit confused.

 

I think, based on how powers are usually categorized as offensive, defensive, or movement, EDM is not an offensive power when used on oneself, but a movement power. Used on another is a different issue. But in terms of creating a globe which prevents movement, that would be the attack in this situation (like a drain, etc.), not a defense (unless EDM is being used against you). Your point is well taken, however, that the power shouldn’t have to be so incredibly expensive even if it is considered an attack. 

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12 hours ago, Brian Stanfield said:

 

I think, based on how powers are usually categorized as offensive, defensive, or movement, EDM is not an offensive power when used on oneself, but a movement power. Used on another is a different issue. But it terms of creating a globe which prevents movement, that would be the attack in this situation (like a drain, etc.), not a defense (unless it is being used against you). Your point is well taken, however, that the power shouldn’t have to be so incredibly expensive even if it is considered an attack.  

If you turn EDM into a Attack, that requires applying the "Useable as Attack" Advantage to it.
- wich explicitly says that it turns everything it is applied to into an attack power
- insists this attack should have a Defense similar to NND's have. Just a weakness as part of UAA (same way Desolidification has a mandatory Special Effect weakness)
- and that it is a pretty dangerous idea to make "Any Movement Power, UAA" for game balance/defense purposes

 

This discussion seemed to be explicitly not about this case. But mostly about blocking the "Voluntary Movement Power" aspect of EDM. So I felt no reason to bring it up.

Of the 10 example Spell the original Dimensional Lock affects, only 1 (Maze) would even qualify as EDM, UAA. And that is the one Spell from that list any GM should be least like to allow in his game to begin with. If "Movement Power, UAA" is gamebreaking "EDM, UAA" is breaking the table the game is palyed on.

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Overall, I'm good with just using a new Advantage (Cannot be Escaped with EDM; +1/4).  As I'm the GM, and the main reason I'm currently asking is for one group of bad guys to stop another group of bad guys from escaping a death trap (in which the PCs may also find themselves), there's no problem getting GM approval.  However, I'm a believer in "what's good for the goose is good for the gander" and I expect at some point the PCs (both the team mage or gadgeteer have VPPs) will want to stop a supervillain from using EDM to escape.  Since the PC gadgeteer can study what the one bad group did to block EDM (after defeating the death trap, of course) it shouldn't be hard for them to replicate.  I'm okay with that.

 

For the non-EDM powers with "extra-dimensional" SFX that Christopher mentioned, I'd expect adding Cannot be Escaped with Teleport (+1/4) and Affects Desolidified (+1/2) should take care of most of them. 

(Edit to add)  And I expect tacking on all three of those Advantages should increase the cost of a Barrier enough to make it appropriate for the effect such a Power is having.

 

Thank you all for your input. 

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