Causing a target to become vulnerable to a certain type of attack

[ripperjew]

Hello! I'm making some villains for a Champions campaign that I'm writing and I wanted to see how I would design a power that causes the target to become more vulnerable particular power or type of attack. For this character, I'd like for enemies affected by her water blast to take increased damage from an ice-based attack with the idea that being wet will cause for the targets to freeze easier. I guess it's technically a drain, but I can't find a way to make it worthwhile from the guidelines listed in Champions Complete 6E. This is the best thing I can think of right now:

Drain - 10 CP per 1d6
Limited Special Effect (-1)

Linked (-1/4 or -1/2)

However, it would be both cheaper and more effective to make this an aid, provided the water villain is fighting alone and others can't benefit from the drain on opposing targets:

Aid - 6 CP per 1d6

Limited Special Effect (-1)

Only aid self (-1)
Linked (-1/4 or -1/2)

 

Is there something I'm missing? The drain is only on heroes who are hit by the drain attack roll, while the aid affects any and all targets. There's no reason to take the drain over the aid or to just add DCs to the water blast, but the drain is the effect that I want. All advice is appreciated!

[Duke Bushido]

Transform into someone with a vulnerability to ice attacks? Pricey way to do it.  I'd wouldn't build it a separate thing, personally, but leave it as a matter of SFX-related course, just like characters in a swimming pool taking makes an electrical attack into an area affect.

 

However, I am very much in the minority when it comes to justifying something with SFX alone.  I'm sure you'll have some better suggestions soon, though.

 

Good luck!

 

[archer]

Draining a defense only gets you half the value of whatever you roll on the dice. Having any kind of sizable drain go off at the same time as a blast effect is going to make for an ungodly large active point attack.

 

If you don't have it go off at the same time as the blast, the character is going to have to blow a phase to do the drain...and that's not going to be worth doing in the vast majority of fights.

 

Transform is what first came to mind but it has much the same problems as doing a drain effect.

 

On the other hand, you could just link a few extra dice of effect onto whatever ice attack is being used and only have the extra dice go off if the target is already wet. That's the lowest active point option I can think of and is less bookkeeping than either a drain or transform. For example, a 10d6 ice blast plus 3d6 blast (limitation only on the 3d6 of -0 only if target is already wet). The limitation isn't worth any points, in my opinion, because the character can make targets wet. But some GM's might allow a -1/4 limitation since the extra dice in the power isn't available during her first attack against any target.

[Cassandra]

Variable Special Effects and some way to figure out what the target is vulnerable to might be a way to go.  Otherwise good old fashioned Armor Piercing could simulate an attack based on a "vulnerability."

[dsatow]

In Ultimate energy blaster it describe using special effects to add a small advantage based on situation.  So a wet person is more conductive than a dry person.  The easiest thing is as a GM, you hand wave it and give the attack a penalty or bonus and explain it as such.  In the case of a wet person, the attack might give +1 OCV or maybe +1DC to a blast or KA.  It might add +1 Body to an entangle.  It could also add 5 normal defense to a fire or heat attack. I would say 5 active points of advantage for the situation should be enough.  Just be sure to be consistent.

[assault]

49 minutes ago, archer said:

But some GM's might allow a -1/4 limitation since the extra dice in the power isn't available during her first attack against any target.

 

This.

[Norm]

How about just increased damage with a limitation on it (soaking wet)?   

 

2D6 Killing Ice Blast

PLUS

1D6 Killing Ice Blast with limitation.

 

[Grailknight]

Archer and Norm have the best way I can think of already. It's simple and straightforward extra damage with a condition. Don't make your life harder than it is.

[Lucius]

14 hours ago, ripperjew said:

Hello! I'm making some villains for a Champions campaign that I'm writing and I wanted to see how I would design a power that causes the target to become more vulnerable particular power or type of attack. For this character, I'd like for enemies affected by her water blast to take increased damage from an ice-based attack with the idea that being wet will cause for the targets to freeze easier.

 

An ice based attack from the same character that has a water blast?

From a regular partner of that character and they work together a lot?

From any random guy who happens to have cold powers that happens along, but often there will be no such person?
 

Lucius Alexander

 

From a palindromedary?

[Doc Democracy]

4 hours ago, Grailknight said:

Archer and Norm have the best way I can think of already. It's simple and straightforward extra damage with a condition. Don't make your life harder than it is.

 

That was my first thought.  However, if you make someone sensitive to bright light then any attack based on light would have increased effect, not just the one that you happen to possess.

 

I think that the original suggestion of a transform to add a complication to someone is better - you transform the person from someone normal to someone with a vulnerability to something...

[Duke Bushido]

I'll be honest:

 

I only suggested the t-form in case OP was one of the "everything must be bought and written up or it doesn't exist" sorts. 

 

Fact is every single edition of the rules ( except possibly 6; I really don't know, but given the increased pressure of mechanics over sfx the last couple of editions, it might not be in there) makes assigning situational bonuses and increases or penalties and reductions based entirely on sfx and situation entirely "book legal." 

 

Certainly I can see why someone would want to know how to make it work mechanically, the simplest thing is simply to allow another die or two (depending on the power levels of your game) of effect based on sfx/situation interaction. 

 

For mechanically building it, though, I like t-form over conditional damage because, as Doc pointed out, the target should be more vulnerable to _any_ ice attack.  Thus, the target needs to be changed and not the attacking power.  Unless, of course, you opt for a multiverse-spanning transform to add the conditional damage to everyone else.

 

I'd suggest it's a minor transform, with recovery representing drying out. (if you actually want to model it with a power construct, that is.) 

 

 

[Grailknight]

1 hour ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

That was my first thought.  However, if you make someone sensitive to bright light then any attack based on light would have increased effect, not just the one that you happen to possess.

 

I think that the original suggestion of a transform to add a complication to someone is better - you transform the person from someone normal to someone with a vulnerability to something...

 

 The OP wants a method to do a little extra damage on an Ice SFX to a target that has been hit by their Water SFX earlier. Well let's go into detail on the methods then.

 

First let's make one minor change to the condition here. Let's not use target struck by my Water SFX,  let's use target that is wet. This way the OP's original conditions still apply and it covers cases where the target is wet from other sources.

 

Now this gives us +Xd6 blast  vs wet targets only (-1/4 ) This way all targets are equally affected by the attacker who paid for the power but not by the other members of Ice SFX  Union 1038.

 

We can use Drain by linking it to the OP's Water SFX and specifying that it causes reduced defenses vs ICE SFX. This will be costly but is probably the best way to have the target take extra damage from not only the power's possessor but also all the ICE SFX wielding buddies. It also must target either PD or ED or become even more expensive.

 

We can use Transform but we run into costing problems. Minor transforms can't change the nature of the target which is what has to be done to give extra damage. This means it will be a Major or Severe Transform and will cost more than the Drain( This would probably be true even if you used a Minor.) It does let all the Ice SFX buddies have a shot though and avoids the PD/ED problem.  Now lets apply that increased effect. Hmm, the only rules for this would be Vulnerability which would be 1.5x(Major IMO) or 2x(Severe) Damage which is probably more than the OP intended. You could say it does +Xd6 but there's that paragraph on CC, page 93 that says not to use Transform to add dice, use the original power. Of course if you feel it's necessary, you can use GM fiat.

 

There may be other methods but these are the three that spring to my mind. Use whichever makes most sense to you as a GM for your campaign.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[massey]

As always with the Hero System, there's an easy way to do it and a needlessly complicated way to do it.  And as always, some people prefer the needlessly complicated because they're just that way.

 

So your villain has a water blast, and you want targets of that blast to be more vulnerable to ice attacks afterward.  Okay, I can kinda see the logic there.  But there are questions to think about before you put pen to paper and start creating a character.

 

--Is there something special about your character's water blast, or is this something that all water attacks should have?

--Are there only certain ice attacks that take advantage of this, or is it something that all ice attacks get the bonus from?

--Does your character have the ice attack as well as the water attack?  Does someone in your group have an ice attack?  Or are you thinking maybe somebody with an ice attack just happens to show up?

--How often are you planning for this to boost the damage of a character who is not on your team?

--Are you okay with a 1 in 100 circumstance where the power logically should work, but as written it doesn't?

 

One of the ways that Hero can get overcomplicated very quickly is when a person wants to represent a universal type of effect, and by god they want it to work every single time, no matter what.  "I want my character to be immune to poison.  All poisons."  Sounds simple enough, buy Life Support: Immune to Poison.  But what happens when you run into somebody else's character, who bought a 5D6 RKA defined as "poison dart".  It's a super-duper poison, even effective against machines (because he forgot to put a limitation on it).  Did your "Immune to Poison" ability account for maybe needing an extra 30 Defense, only against poisons?  Probably not.  It's impossible to think of every possible variation of power interactions.

 

Let's look at the questions again.  Is there something special about your character's water blast, or is this something that all water attacks should do?  If all water attacks should boost ice attacks, then that's probably something the GM should handle by either making it a campaign rule (you take extra damage when you're wet), or all ice blast characters should take some bonus damage vs wet characters.  It isn't really something that you need to build into the water blast -- because taking a dip in a swimming pool should do the same thing.

 

Does your character have the ice attack, or is it something your friends have?  If your character, Water Lass, wants to help your friend Ice Lad hit harder, you could use an Aid.  Now, this will help Ice Lad, but if you just happen to have Frost King make a guest appearance one week, he isn't helped unless you use the power on him too.  If a half-dozen agents show up, all with OAF ice blasters, they don't benefit unless you use the power on them individually as well.  But you have to ask yourself... how often does that kind of thing happen?  In 20+ years of playing Champions, I don't think I've ever seen a bunch of agents show up with ice weapons.  You may be worrying about a situation that will never occur in game.

 

So ultimately you just determine your level of tolerance for odd power interactions.

[Tech]

massey said etc quote:

"If a half-dozen agents show up, all with OAF ice blasters, they don't benefit unless you use the power on them individually as well.  But you have to ask yourself... how often does that kind of thing happen?  In 20+ years of playing Champions, I don't think I've ever seen a bunch of agents show up with ice weapons.  You may be worrying about a situation that will never occur in game."

 

No one can say that when I GM .

[Tech]

I think dsatow nailed it. Powers may have different effects in different environments. Try using an electric blast underwater, for example. Your wind blast is useless in outer space, and your oatmeal entangle with no def may end up with a little PD in the hot desert. A good GM will surprise the players with a bonus (or minus) for their powers used in different situations.

[assault]

At one point I did have "building a Freeze Ray" as a standard project in Mad Science school.

 

The result was that anyone who actually used a Freeze Ray was considered an amateur.

[Tech]

Wow. Mad Science school...   assault, I'm going to have to borrow this for a Champions episode.

[Doc Democracy]

I am convinced of the simplicity of sticking to enhancing your own attacks and not trying to make it better for everyone with similar SFX.  ?

 

I am also attracted to the flexibility of the environmental effects, a cosmetic transform to change a dry target to a drenched one, then SFX to deliver a bonus dice or two for everyone with ice powers...

[Duke Bushido]

9 hours ago, Grailknight said:

 

We can use Transform but we run into costing problems. Minor transforms can't change the nature of the target which is what has to be done to give extra damage.

 

If I may be allowed the faux pas of self-indulgence via excuse making:

 

I suggested minor T-form (and, while I wouldn't do more than take this as an sfx versus environment sort of thing and play it by ear) because for the costing of a minor transform-- figuring whatever dice, advantages-- you can substitute dice of T-form with an equal number of dice of damage.  Thus, you are making a point choice: do I want to kill them, or use those same points to alter them somehow.

 

Regardless of how the rules specify the various classes of T-form (and I don't oppose them unilaterally, mind you), I will always be governed by the single principle behind the introduction of T-form.

 

If I want to make a character or object into something of great value (even if it is only valuable in that moment), I'll go with a higher value of T-form.  After all, Gold is worth more than Lead, and maybe I have a need for a Hyabusa that is far more urgent than my current need for a 7-up machine.

 

But honestly, if the thing to be created is as useful or less useful than the dead body I could have created for the same points, it's going to be a minor T-form, every single time.  With that in mind, in this instance the character has opted to spend "dead body" points to only receive "wet pants."  And unlike "dead body," wet pants isn't even permanent.  Heck, it's not even difficult to resolve.  Making it worse is that the attacking character still has to use other powers (bought with other points) to get any utility at all from his wet pants expenditure.  For my money, that's Minor T-form, regardless of what the rules have to say about it.

 

 

5 hours ago, massey said:

As always with the Hero System, there's an easy way to do it and a needlessly complicated way to do it.  And as always, some people prefer the needlessly complicated because they're just that way.

 

I would hug you right now, if I could.  

 

[ripperjew]

Thanks for all the feedback, guys! To reiterate, this is for a lone villain, not a player character. She's going to make a single appearance in my campaign and likely never be used again. That takes care of a lot of questions regarding other outside factors, like dealing with a large group or having allies benefit from the debuff, so I've decided to go with Archer and Norm's idea. Just keeping it simple for the situation :)