Build this power

[Tech]

Someone in the campaign I'm in wants to have a power to make him 'immune to mental entangle'. I want to hear your thoughts on the power build.

[Greywind]

Hero doesn't do absolutes.

[Tech]

That's not totally accurate. 3 always hits, 18 always misses. You can build a power however you want, even if it doesn't go 'by the rules': a campaign is whatever someone makes it. Anyways, on to the power build: for myself, I was thinking Desolid only vs mental entangle.

[Surrealone]

That approach won't stop a Mental Entangle built with the Affects Desolid advantage.

[Tech]

No one in the campaign has Mental Entangle affects Desolid, hence my train of thought.

[Doc Democracy]

Sounds like someone is talking mechanics instead of game effects.

 

 If a player tells me he wants to be immune to mental paralysis I ask what that looks like in game.  Why immune to just mental paralysis and not other mental powers?  What about mental paralysis with alternate defences?  Would he also be immune to that?

 

I would need more detail on the power intent before coming to an answer about a build.

 

Doc

[Surrealone]

1 hour ago, Tech said:

No one in the campaign has Mental Entangle affects Desolid, hence my train of thought.

Well you said 'immune to mental entangle' without any specifications on the build.  Thus, I reasonably took this to mean immunity to all mental entangles since a mental entangle build was not provided by you for us to use in constructing a defensive power to thwart it.  You then suggested something that would clearly NOT be immune to all mental entangles, which is why I pointed out the issue.

 

If you are now clarifying that you want a power built to provide immunity to one specific, well-defined mental entangle (which is what your quoted text, above, appears to suggest), please supply the mental entangle build so we can see how many dice it has in addition to its advantages and limitations.

[dsatow]

Simple, make them an automaton or vehicle with no consciousness.  Thus no mental attribute and they are effectively immune to mental effects.

 

[Duke Bushido]

7 hours ago, Tech said:

That's not totally accurate. 3 always hits, 18 always misses. You can build a power however you want, even if it doesn't go 'by the rules': a campaign is whatever someone makes it. Anyways, on to the power build: for myself, I was thinking Desolid only vs mental entangle.

 

There were three powers, under 4th and both 5th editions that I used to refer to "the Trifecta of Cobble.". Desolid was one of them, particularly when someone wanted to be as-close-to-immune-to-something-as-was-possible. 

 

Given the long history of this application, it is as good a start as anything else, particularly since you stated no one in your campaign can take be effective against it. 

 

However, is this going to remain status quo?  While I am not personally opposed to absolutes (I don't like them, but I'm not opposed to the idea of them), keep in mind the effect they may have on your campaign: how long before "affects desolid" becomes the norm for mental powers in your game?  On the whole, that's not necessarily bad, but whoever spent all those points on desolid is going to come short. 

 

4 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

 If a player tells me he wants to be immune to mental paralysis I ask what that looks like in game.  Why immune to just mental paralysis and not other mental powers?  What about mental paralysis with alternate defences?  Would he also be immune to that?

 

Not only are those good questions, but they would help us a lot as we try to come up with ideas to help you. 

 

Is Mental Paralysis an EGO-based power in your campaign?  Would it be more effective to buy a high level of EGO Defense?  That would cover the entire spectrum of mental powers as well.  For the price of Desolid, you can get quite a bit of it.  It's not an absolute, but if you get enough, it can be effectively absolute within the campaign. 

 

If the character is only immune to Mental Paralysis, then Mental Defense only versus one power should be considerably cheaper. 

Of course, if your Campaign features MP of multiple types-- say based on CON or Flash or whatever, you will the appropriate defenses for those as well.  Nothing stops you from applying a "only versus an MP attack" limitation, of course. 

 

On this line of thought is the idea of finding some sort of cost average between Power Defense, Flash Defense, or defenses against all of whatever types of MP are allowed in your game and creating "Mental Paralysis Defense," a new power unique to your campaign (and if you decide that option appeals to you, I strongly suggest talking with Hugh Neilson for advice on costing such a thing; he has a gift for turning abstract concepts into real math). 

 

Granted, that would require GM permission (not the talking to Hugh part; that requires Hugh's permission. ;)).  Though based on comments you've made, I assume the GM is you.  If not, I apologize for the mistake. 

 

 

3 hours ago, dsatow said:

Simple, make them an automaton or vehicle with no consciousness.  Thus no mental attribute and they are effectively immune to mental effects.

 

 

 

 

All jokes aside though, there are some ways to build some pretty powerful defenses, though most of them require GM approval.

 

Consider a combination of effect-specific defense (or power-specific defense, depending on how you model things) and Damage Reduction of a relevant type. 

 

And while HERO does have a tradition of abhoring an absolute defense, the 6th edition has gotten a bit closer: I can't recall the name, but there is a power something akin to "damage mitigation" that simply removes dice from the effect pool straight off.  Enough of that (or some combination of all of the above) gets expensive quickly, to be sure, but total invulnerability to something probably _should_ be on the pricey side, even if it is Limited to only working against one specific attack. 

 

I hope something here at least gets the creative juices flowing. 

 

Duke

[Duke Bushido]

Oh!  As long as I've got the Trifecta of Cobble on my mind, let me offer builds using the other two corners:

 

A massive Transform, single effect, yadda yadda, transform into un mental pearlized character, Triggered by being hit with mental paralysis. 

 

And of course, the same trigger on Extra Dimensional Movement: to the dimension where you're not Mentally Parylized.

 

 

 

 

Duke

[Lucius]

2 hours ago, dsatow said:

Simple, make them an automaton or vehicle with no consciousness.  Thus no mental attribute and they are effectively immune to mental effects.

 

 

Take Multiform into a form that is an Automaton, and Accidental Change to switch when subject to a Mental Entangle.

The Automaton form should be nearly identical to base form, such that no one can tell there was a change. Also has a Physical Limitation to still be subject to most forms of mental power (except of course Entangle.) Include Programs that let the Automaton be behaviorally identical to base form. And an Accidental Change back when changing back won't mean being subject to a Mental Entangle.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Multiform to palindromedary

[Duke Bushido]

Ooh-

 

That's way better because you're doing it with disadvantages and limitations! 

 

Do it well enough and you _gain_ points for having this power! 

 

 

 

[Christopher]

By default and by design there are not "Absolutes" in the Hero System. If someone is "absolutely immune to heat", does this mean fire? The Suns plasma? Output of a White Hole? Max Plank Temperature? Some superpower beyond even those?

 

6E1 11 actually deals with that under "No Absolutes":
" With a few minor exceptions, the HERO System
doesn’t have any “absolutes.” Tere’s no guaranteed
way to hit another character with an attack, no
foolproof way to avoid an attack, no total immunity to any phenomenon or type of attack. Tis is
for two reasons. First, absolutes tend to unbalance
roleplaying games and create problems during
play. Second, even in the adventure fction that
inspires roleplaying game campaigns, “absolutes”
are rarely absolute. When one supposedly exists,
ofen the whole point of the story is for the heroes
to fnd a way to avoid or bypass the “absolute”...
which means it wasn’t really an absolute afer all.
See 6E1 133 for more information."

[Christopher]

Just now, Duke Bushido said:

That's way better because you're doing it with disadvantages and limitations!  

That would be a beneficial "Accidental Change", wich makes it a huge advantage. The AC rules actually account for such a absue potential

[Duke Bushido]

If there is an effort to regulate rules for abuse, then "Triggered" would start out as a +5 Advantage and go up from there. 

 

[Christopher]

7 hours ago, Tech said:

Someone in the campaign I'm in wants to have a power to make him 'immune to mental entangle'. I want to hear your thoughts on the power build.

If you want characters to be immune to mental entangles and are the GM, the simple rule is to define that as a baserule of the game/environment.

You can say "all regeneration powers are weak to carbinadium". And hence they are.

You can say "no healing powers can counter the black blades of the nazgul". And hence they can't.

The same way the GM is incentivised to change the costs of Skills, wich sense groups count as "targetting" and even movement powers cost based on the setting specifics*, this is simply a GM decision.
 

*In a pure aquatic campaign, swimming would be de-facto like flight. While flight would be as situational as swimmig is in most land campaigns. So their prices should flip.

[Christopher]

1 minute ago, Duke Bushido said:

If there is an effort to regulate rules for abuse, then "Triggered" would start out as a +5 Advantage and go up from there.  

+2 Advantages are teh highes the Hero System deals with outside of experimental stuff. At +2 we are already at the "can be used from Desolid" level of power. Wich is scarely powerfull.

[Lucius]

9 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

Ooh-

 

That's way better because you're doing it with disadvantages and limitations! 

 

Do it well enough and you _gain_ points for having this power! 

 

 

 

Not to interrupt you two, but I wanted to respond to this:

 

NOT LIKELY!

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary now returns to the regularly scheduled interaction of Christopher and Duke Bushido

 

 

[Duke Bushido]

16 minutes ago, Christopher said:

+2 Advantages are teh highes the Hero System deals with outside of experimental stuff. At +2 we are already at the "can be used from Desolid" level of power. Wich is scarely powerfull.

Out of curiosity, how do come to the conclusion that "affects nondesolid" isn't that powerful? 

 

Granted, I agree with you, but that's because I prefer to let the SFX defermine what does and does not affect solid / affect desolid.  But using purely the mechanics of the rules, without this advantage on their Powers, desolid characters are essentially decorations.  This Advantage makes them valid again. 

[archer]

9 hours ago, Tech said:

That's not totally accurate. 3 always hits, 18 always misses. You can build a power however you want, even if it doesn't go 'by the rules': a campaign is whatever someone makes it. Anyways, on to the power build: for myself, I was thinking Desolid only vs mental entangle.

 

Over-Kill, Destroyer of Civilizations

 

Mind Control continuous, uncontrolled, area of effect radius, 0 END, persistent, inherent, invisible power effects, megascale with the single command of "Don't cast a mental entangle".

 

Transform continuous, uncontrolled, area of effect radius, 0 END, persistent, inherent, penetrating, invisible power effects, megascale "transforms target into someone/something who cannot cast a mental entangle, who becomes enraged if they suspect someone can cast a mental entangle, and has a Psychological complication: Paranoid and suspicious that other people can cast mental entangle".

 

EGO +425 and Mental Defense 40

 

If you're playing an edition which allows an elemental control, you could save a few points.

 

No, there's no guarantee the character still couldn't get hit with a mental entangle. But most opponents would be both Mind Controlled and Transformed into not being able to cast one. And the few opponents who could resist both those attacks would be either ripped to shreds by everyone else on the planet or would be too busy defending themselves from everyone else on the planet to track the character down.

 

 

 

 

[Lucius]

8 hours ago, Christopher said:

+2 Advantages are teh highes the Hero System deals with outside of experimental stuff. At +2 we are already at the "can be used from Desolid" level of power. Wich is scarely powerfull.

 

8 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

Out of curiosity, how do come to the conclusion that "affects nondesolid" isn't that powerful? 

 

 

At the risk of seeming to presume to speak for Christopher, I will say I think you misread him.

 

He said "scarely." I think you read this as "scarcely" but I think he intended to say "scarily."

 

In other words, he's saying the opposite of what you seem to think he's saying.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

This message brought to you by Palindromedary Enterprises.

[Duke Bushido]

1 hour ago, Lucius said:

 

 

At the risk of seeming to presume to speak for Christopher, I will say I think you misread him.

 

He said "scarely." I think you read this as "scarcely" but I think he intended to say "scarily."

 

 

 

 

Ah!  Yes; of course!  

 

That makes far more sense, doesn't it? Certainly we can all be randomly  victimized by autocorrect. 

 

 

Thank you, Lucius. Thank you both.

[Doc Democracy]

The usual response for an absolute effect in HERO has been to take the largest such power in the campaign, build a defence that would effectively stop that and then, as GM fiat, describe it as Immunity to Mental Paralysis (encompassing EVERY power that might be so described).  It might be expensive but such an all-encompassing power probably should be.

[Christopher]

Nevermind

[Christopher]

3 hours ago, Lucius said:

At the risk of seeming to presume to speak for Christopher, I will say I think you misread him.

 

He said "scarely." I think you read this as "scarcely" but I think he intended to say "scarily."

  

In other words, he's saying the opposite of what you seem to think he's saying. 

^That

 

2 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

Ah!  Yes; of course!  

Basically if you need more then a +2 Advantage value, there there propably is not advantage value that could make this balanced.+2 is the cap use in any vanilla advantage, except for the self-buildable ones (like Charges, Trigger).

You need to split that up into seperate advantages or just live with it being so far into "GM allow Territory", you can not see the stopsign anymore