Differences in ambient mana

[Chris Goodwin]

Does anyone run, or play in, games where ambient mana levels make a difference to spellcasting?  I'm curious as to how you do it.  

 

I wrote something up a long time ago on the subject, and if I can find it I'll post it somewhere.  I'd like to see what other people do.

 

Edit to add:  I found it at archive.org; it's pretty embarrassingly bad, so I'm not actually going to post it anywhere.

[Urlord]

I am currently running a campaign where all spells must be powered by END Reserve: Mana Pool (for Magic) or a Divine Pool (specific to each deity). The pool’s recovery requires Meditation/Study for Mana or Prayer/Worship for Dicine. The Recovery of the pools is also affected by the character’s physical location.

 

Very High Mana Area = x2.0 REC

High Mana Area = x1.5 REC

Average Mana Area = x1.0 REC

Low Mana Area = x0.5 REC

Null Mana Area = No REC

 

Deity’s Consecrated Ground = x2.0 REC

Ally Deity Consecrated Ground = x1.5 REC

Non-Consecrated Ground = x1.0 REC

Other Deity Consecrated Ground = x0.5 REC

Enemy Deity Consecrated Ground = No REC

 

There is no difference to the actual spell casting unless the spell is built with a specific limitation, i.e., “Must be cast on the Deity’s consecrated Ground” [-1] or “Does not work in Low or No Mana Areas” [-1/2]. 

[Christopher]

42 minutes ago, Chris Goodwin said:

Does anyone run, or play in, games where ambient mana levels make a difference to spellcasting?  I'm curious as to how you do it.  

 

I wrote something up a long time ago on the subject, and if I can find it I'll post it somewhere.  I'd like to see what other people do.

I only got the Shadowrun game System as a reference. And I doubt it can be translated given the differences in granularity between SR and Hero Skill Checks or how damage works (high roll = extra damage).

[Chris Goodwin]

23 minutes ago, Christopher said:

I only got the Shadowrun game System as a reference. And I doubt it can be translated given the differences in granularity between SR and Hero Skill Checks or how damage works (high roll = extra damage).

 

If translation was what I was after, I could do it myself; my original document was more or less a translation of GURPS mana levels into Fantasy Hero.  I'm wondering if there are people playing in or running Fantasy Hero games where they're using varying mana levels, and if so how they're representing it. 

[Chris Goodwin]

I seem to recall a suggestion from the boards using Change Environment as a penalty on Magic Skill rolls to represent reducing the ambient mana in an area.  (I know I didn't come up with that, as I distinctly remember complimenting the original poster on a neat idea, but a Google search brings up me asking a rules question using that as an example.  I can't find the original post, though.) 

 

That leads me to the idea of making mana level into an environmental condition like temperature, and Change Environment to increase or decrease that.  Which implies that there are creatures from differing mana levels, which implies racial/species/cultural templates.  

 

Beyond that it's a matter of reasoning from effect.  What does ambient mana do?  I can that work out for a particular world.  

 

I'm still interested in hearing how other people have done it, though!

[Christopher]

5 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

I seem to recall a suggestion from the boards using Change Environment as a penalty on Magic Skill rolls to represent reducing the ambient mana in an area.  (I know I didn't come up with that, as I distinctly remember complimenting the original poster on a neat idea, but a Google search brings up me asking a rules question using that as an example.  I can't find the original post, though.)  

That makes perfect sense, if a Skill Bonus was what you were after. If you needed other aspects? You will ahve to dig deeper.

 

5 hours ago, Chris Goodwin said:

That leads me to the idea of making mana level into an environmental condition like temperature, and Change Environment to increase or decrease that.  Which implies that there are creatures from differing mana levels, which implies racial/species/cultural templates.   

Just a minor warning: If you make it a CE effeect, you can bet players will want to have access to it. And that is just the kind of power that is really dangerous for game balance - right up there with UBO, transform to make weapons/wealth and aid to go past campaign limits.

Of course it does still help to have the CE value defined anyway. After all players do not nessesarily get all CE effects.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Low mana areas restrict mana regeneration and cause penalties to skill rolls, some even cause an endurance cost in addition to mana.  But it reduces some side effects.  High mana areas give a bonus to skill rolls, can increase mana regeneration and even reduce mana costs of spells, but also can increase or even give side effects

[Chris Goodwin]

16 hours ago, Christopher said:

Just a minor warning: If you make it a CE effeect, you can bet players will want to have access to it. And that is just the kind of power that is really dangerous for game balance - right up there with UBO, transform to make weapons/wealth and aid to go past campaign limits.

Of course it does still help to have the CE value defined anyway. After all players do not nessesarily get all CE effects.

 

Right... I'm thinking of the CE as a Side Effect.  But someone's going to at some point think of using the spinning disc from Larry Niven's The Magic Goes Away...

[Chris Goodwin]

47 minutes ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

Low mana areas restrict mana regeneration and cause penalties to skill rolls, some even cause an endurance cost in addition to mana.  But it reduces some side effects.  High mana areas give a bonus to skill rolls, can increase mana regeneration and even reduce mana costs of spells, but also can increase or even give side effects

 

Exactly the kinds of things I'm looking for.  This implies that casters have an END Reserve for mana (or Mana and MREC Characteristics).  

[archer]

On 10/30/2018 at 1:03 PM, Chris Goodwin said:

I seem to recall a suggestion from the boards using Change Environment as a penalty on Magic Skill rolls to represent reducing the ambient mana in an area.  (I know I didn't come up with that, as I distinctly remember complimenting the original poster on a neat idea, but a Google search brings up me asking a rules question using that as an example.  I can't find the original post, though.) 

 

That leads me to the idea of making mana level into an environmental condition like temperature, and Change Environment to increase or decrease that.  Which implies that there are creatures from differing mana levels, which implies racial/species/cultural templates.  

 

Beyond that it's a matter of reasoning from effect.  What does ambient mana do?  I can that work out for a particular world.  

 

I'm still interested in hearing how other people have done it, though!

 

 

That's pretty much how I do it. It's more of a pain than it's worth to the story many times because you are gimping some players' characters or enhancing others, which can easily cause problems in a group. But it can be thematically appropriate for encounters with god-like beings or headquarters of powerful groups which suppress the power of opposing groups.

[Christopher R Taylor]

While its fun to work out how things work in the rules and come up with "how would you build a rainstorm" honestly as GM you can just say "this is what happens."  No power is needed.

[Duke Bushido]

BAH!

 

(not at you guys; I'm mad at myself).  My Saturday game broke up about an hour ago, and I've been looking for a particular flash drive that I am more and more convinced I gave to a friend when he moved-- it contained all the background notes on material on a Fantasy HERO campaign he and I ran some years ago. (As I said before: I don't particularly _like_ fantasy, but as long as it's not emulating D&D, I _can_ have a reasonably good time playing it.  Besides, I was second chair GM on that one, so I got more player time than usual, so I was all over it! )

 

At any rate, we had devised a magic system very much like what you _seem_ to be looking for, Christopher, but I can't find that rascal anywhere now.  I can, on the odd chance that it might help, give you sort of a run-down on what I recall of it.

 

Magic came in four essential types:

 

There was Divine Magic, from the Gods (or sometimes really powerful demons).

There was Natural Magic-- which I think can be equated to what you're calling "mana," at least in terms of the way it worked.

There was Tribal / Ancestral Magic

There was Alchemical Magic

 

Let's go ahead an eliminate that last one, as, while to the world in which they existed, and even to the alchemists themselves, they very much _were_ magic, but it was a "Clarke's Law" kind of magic.  Think of it as the earliest dabblings in chemistry.  No truly useful transmutations had ever been performed-- a few man-into-corpse type things, but nothing like the fabled lead-into-gold. but a number of wondrous potions and powders had been created, and the secret ingredients and rituals that created them were a closely-guarded and highly-valued secret.  There.  Done.  Now on to the "real" magic. For what it's worth, Alchemy wasn't as greatly feared (or respected, even) as the other Magics simply because it was considered "the safest magic."  This is specifically because there was little to no danger to the user; all the risks were taken by the Alchemists themselves, who prepared and tested their various potions and formula, and of course their apprentices, who often....  "helped with the research....?", or at least did the bulk of the taste-testing.

 

Tribal and Divine magic were both "locationally-tied," if you will.  Both of these had strong power centers, and their power tapered off as you moved away from the power centers.

 

Tribal magic was, obviously, strongest within the tribe itself.  It was based on the idea that Shamans of the tribe were always in touch with the Ancestors, who could be persuaded to work from their magical afterlife wonders here on earth that would benefit or protect the tribe as a whole, or members of the tribe.  Sometimes (Activation 14- ) the ancestors could be persuaded to work wonders for outsiders who were working on behalf of the tribe, or whose actions would indirectly benefit the tribe.   As you moved further away from the tribe's homelands, the magic became weaker.  I don't recall just how we broke it down (too many years ago, and other reasons I'll get into wrapping this up).  I know it had to do with "Marches" ( a not-quite standardized unit of distance in this world, roughly equal to the distance a ten-man war party could force march between sunrise and Moondrop (this world had two small moons, one of which orbited twice a day, one of which was more like our own moon.  "Moondrop" was simply "Night," obviously, as determined by being able to watch the smaller moon set in the early evening.  You know-- "flavor text."    Well, not really just flavor: we had intended to eventually unveil a new sort of "evil magic" based on the positions of the moons as the story _pro_gressed, instead, as is so often the case, it _di_gressed, and we just never got that arc rolling)

 

At any rate, while on tribal  or ancestral land (or in a party of at least 100 tribesmen), the magic was at it's strongest.  Whatever spells the caster wished to use had double effectiveness; if he made his to-hit or skill check by less than 1/4 of what he needed for success, they had double effect.  At-- I _think_-- two Marches out, the chance for double success disappeared.  Two more Marches, the bonus on the effect pool disappeared.  At six Marches from Tribal land, the caster picked up an Activation 14-.  Then you repeated the cycle:

Two more marches, and he only got full success if he made his skill check / target roll by 1/4 of his actual target number, else he got 3/4 effectiveness.  Two more Marches, and he lost another quarter off his Effect Pool.  At Twelve Marches (or a "Pitch March," in campaign vernacular), his Activation dropped to 11-.  Repeat, reducing similarly for the next cycle of 6 Marches, on and on, until Magic was that rarest-of-rares: the natural 3, but never at more than 1/4 of his effect pool.  No matter where a Shaman was in the world, the Ancestors would never refuse to Heal another Tribesman.  The reduced effectiveness by distance was still in effect (according to the wisdom of the Shamans, these reductions and bonuses were essentially due to the lesser and lesser distribution of ancestors the further one moved from his homelands, as typically the Ancestors were regionally bound to the locations in which they die (which did a lot toward explaining why there were so many scattered tribes, and why they didn't spread throughout the countryside like wildfire: no one relished the idea of dying, and thus forever being, alone.)), but regardless of distance, a Shaman could heal (at at least 1/4 effect) an injured tribesman.

 

Now I know there are people who will get their whatever-is-most-unpleasant-to-have-twisted all in a twist at the idea of not getting "full point value" for "the same magic," remember--- Nah; I won't say that.    it comes off arrogant in print, when it's mean to be sarcastically funny.  Let's try this:  Tribal magic was the least expensive magic.  Essentially, "Tribal" was a -1 Limitation on top of the regular spell build.  Further, Tribal magic had a higher AP cap than did Alchemical or Natural Magic-- only Divine Magic had spells with higher AP.  Tribal Magic was not limited by what you sect did or did not believe.  Which is to say that you didn't have to adhere to the whims of "the God of Healing," or "the God of Broken Vessels," or whatever sort of specialist to which you prayed.  Healing, Killing, Repairing, Destroying, Domination-- the only thing "off limits" for Tribal Magic was permanent T-forms on the natural world: the ancestors liked it just fine the way it is.  Sure; you could rearrange things for a day or two-- bend trees to make a shelter, or raise an earthen damn to protect the valley from the floodwater-engorged river, but when the need was no longer urgent, the world returned to what it was.  Further, while there were actual rituals for some spells, and incantations (appeals to the Ancestors) for pretty much all of them, you weren't dependent on a specific code of conduct or dogma to ensure you had access to the magic.  It depended on nothing more than your knowledge of the spell(s) you wanted to use, and the number of dead "your guys" that were likely to be around to help you out.  Further, no tribal magic required personal END to use, and the only backlash or side-effects that would happen would only happen if you failed the proper "closing ceremonies" of thanking the Ancestors both after the fact and again at the evening meal, and one last time when you returned to your people, so they would know that any Ancestors lost in that neck of the woods still cared about the Tribe.  This made Tribal Magic the, in out-of-character parlance, the "second safest" magic in the world.  Fair trade offs for the Inherent Limitations.

 

 

 

Divine Magic worked similarly, but was more tied to the amount of believers in the area.  We had charts and such for this (because it got complicated), but it would be fair to simplify it thusly:  If, out of the people (or members of your particular race, if you weren't a people) within March radius of you, fifty percent were worshippers of your particular deity, then your Magic worked at full power.  Every ten percent above that added what we termed a "+1".  A +1 could be anything, and depended a lot on the situation and the nature of the Deity being called upon.  It could be a literal die modifier on the skill check or to-hit roll; it could be an extra die for the Effect Pool, or any simple small boost to the Power.  It was possible, in a village of ardent believers, to get a +5, which could be a combination of 5 things, automatic "max effect dice roll," or "Zero Endurance" or-- well, you get the idea.  Again, I don't remember the chart, but I do recall it was fairly loose.

 

Conversely, each 10 percent below 50% gave a "-1" to the magic. It could range from a -1 to hit to a loss of effect pool to an acquired activation to Burnout to increased Endurance-- I seem to recall that a -5 was actually all of these, but again-- don't remember just what was where or in what value on the chart.

 

Things that really helped out: being in or very near (like, within eyeshot) of a Temple to that God-- Reduced or Zero Endurance, half-again the effect dice, bonuses to use, double the Area of Effect-- all the good stuff.  Being near an _active_ Temple-- not necessarily active at that moment, but one that was still in regular use-- added more bonuses.  Being around other Priests of the Order, in particularly working together to cast-- could give large bonuses or boons. Being physically in the presence of your Deity (which, to be fair, was pretty cussed rare!) meant you could spit typhoons and crap light sabers, so long as you were in his favor.

 

Then there were the downsides, (like _not_ being in his favor) and you know them: they are standard Fantasy tropes involving adherence to ritual and lifestyle, evangelizing, the occasional Holy Quest, and all the rest.  We were the only ones, I think, that required re-consecration of abandoned or rarely-used shrines and temples to remain in favor (and if you could get at least one person to return to praying there, you might even get a boon of some sort), and we required the complete and utter destruction of any desecrated temples or shrines (seriously: you'd better check!  Walk past a shrine that some lesser species has been using as a urinal for seven generations?!  Your patron Saint is _not_ going to take that well).  Because Priests making direct appeals to their Gods is perceived as dicey at best, and considering the frequency with which the Gods are displeased, and the severity of the potential side-effects, Divine Magic-- easily the most powerful in the campaign, was considered the most dangerous to be involved with, though a Priest with a long history of using his lord's magic was held in extremely high regard, and could garner a considerable reputation as both a powerful wielder of magic and a most devout holy man.

 

Divine Magic had the highest AP caps in the game, and under the right conditions (when dramatically appropriate) could once in a blue moon violate them in a way that required public registration and not being allowed anywhere near a school zone ever again.  It also had the highest potential for side-effects, had some of the most devastating side-effects (though, to be fair, the really bad ones-- like the crushing death of all you personally converted to the religion) were pretty stinkin' rare.  Still, they were there, so there was always the potential.  Side-effects over-all, though-- they were pretty common, and again, tied mostly to your adherence to the rituals of religion, your personal fervor for your deity, and just how powerful the spell in play was.  All Divine Magic cost Character END, though _most_ of it was at 1/2 or 1/4 END, and of course ZERO END to heal any of your God's worshippers, regardless of how much of his presence was in the area.  Conversely, Priests could not Heal or Aid themselves; the God's wanted constant proof that the Priest worshipped for love and loyalty, and not for selfish reasons-- even the "evil" ones.  However,  play by his rules well enough, long enough, and you might become a Saint of the all-mighty-so-and-so, which had perks I won't go into because I've already bored you way more than I intended to, for which I apologize profusely.  When I get over-tired and on a roll, it becomes very difficult to stop.

 

Finally, we had Natural Magic, which allowed you to tap into that unseen bit of energy left over from the formation of the universe, and was your personal toy for putting some finishing touches on Creation itself.  Maybe you need a river moved, or a mountain razed, or a guy set on fire.  Who knows?  It's your turn to paint the universe.  At any rate, from what you're describing, this seems most closely like "mana magic," even if it doesn't rain down in loaves over the desert.

 

Like the others, how well your magic works depends on just how much of it is around where you are.  As someone mentioned above, we didn't stat this out as a power build, but it wasn't because we were lazy.  The idea felt wrong.  It was like starting out how much breeze was blowing, or how much your robes had dried over the fire after this morning's river crossing.  It was as much a part of the setting as the buzzing of the insects, and varied in much the same way.  What we did, essentially, was take the Divine model and apply something that looked not unlike a topographical map to the campaign maps.  They would have looked exactly like topographical maps, actually, had the at all followed topography, but (and this may or may not work for you) we instead followed population density.  The more densely populated an area, the lower the Essence was in that area.   Now most _certainly_ there were exceptions.  Colleges of magic, for example, were magnets for the stuff, and it would taper away as you went into the rest of the city.  Some cities were anomalous and were sitting right next to-- or even _on_-- natural spring heads of the stuff.  At any rate, less of the stuff meant  Spells didn't work as well-- pick one or more problems off the chart, including anything mentioned thus far, and alter them by the extent of the dearth of Essence in this area.  Increased END was almost always one of them, even at the "-1 effectiveness" level, as was additional time while the caster "gathered" enough Essence for his spell.  You see, Natural magic cost END, usually full END, because the wielder was using his considerable will alone to bend the universe to his bidding-- a not inconsiderable feat.  The general rule of thumb was that every ten AP (might have been 15 or 20; I really don't remember) in the spell could be cast without penalty for every "level" of Essence in the area.  Thus, a 30 AP spell had no additional penalties so long as there were at least three "levels" (can't remember the in-game term for that) of Essence.    If you had half-again what you needed, some small bonuses. There were few side effects (other than exhaustion) for using Natural Magic in low Essence areas (and no matter where you were in the world, there was always at least _some_ Essence, making it the only magic that worked anywhere in the campaign world).

 

At moderate levels, Natural Magic worked just as expected.  If you had, for example, "just enough" levels of Essence, or even half-again what you needed, you were in the perfect place to be.  If you had more than half-again the level you needed, or even twice what you needed, there were slight boons (even, for simple spells, or any restorative spell, Reduced or occasionally Zero END).  

 

At really high levels, it got a bit wiggy.  If you had more than double, you had trouble.  ("Jesse!"  "James!"  gah-- sorry about that)

 

First off, there were END penalties as the caster fought to prevent himself from being overwhelmed by the rush of the Essence, as if in some way Essence _wants_ to be wielded.  (And that was another story line we never got to pursue: why is Natural Magic the easiest magic to learn?  Why is it better at restoration than destruction?  Why does it require no fealty of any sort?  Why is it distributed unevenly?).  There were other "problems," as well: spells might become Uncontrolled, Uncontrollable, Persistent, trebly effective, or require EGO rolls or Magic rolls to forcibly turn _off_.  A Healing spell might suddenly gain "Area of Effect: 40" Radius" and your defeated foes suddenly start feeling much better.  Granted, those are extreme examples, but they were possible, considering the actual level of Essence in play, the nature / Essence requirements of the spell being cast, and the dramatic appropriateness of "dangerously successful."

 

Final note on this was there was no way to "detect Essence Level."  No such spell.  No such special sense.  The only way to know for sure was to tap into it.  Even then, you wouldn't know "how much" was there, you would only know "a little thin for this spell," "perfect for this spell," "abundant!  I can do much more than this!" or "Dear Gods!  Someone, fetch me a little dutch boy!"

 

Again, this is all from the memory of a thing twenty years ago, and being filtered through my need for having been to bed about an hour before the game broke up, and at best it's a poor summation, which is why I wanted so badly to find the actual finished write-ups.  I'm pretty sure I bungled a lot of this.

 

 

Now....

 

I told you all that to tell you _this_:

 

It was an _ENORMOUS_ pain in the assassin.  Seriously.  While it worked _great_ on paper, and every single player _loved_ the ideas (and we ended up with a part of six, three of whom were magic-dependant and one of whom carried a few potions and powders), in actual practice, even with experience and exposure, it was a serious pain.

 

We had _maps_ of what the magic levels were for Natural magic (lightly modified with a D6 for any given day, just like the weather.  1-3 was a positive level modifier, 4-6 were negative 1-3 modifiers) and noted distribution of worshippers of X as these things were discovered (based on the results of the magic for the players, or course.  Our GM maps were a bit more specific), and it was _still_ a serious pain in the patootie!

 

Within about six months, one Priest gave up the cloth and began to train with staff and hammer, and both spell casters were using Natural Magic-- not because it was a better or worse system, but just to help us out with having to keep up with two different sets of statistics, and we still had to work like Hell just to stay up with it.  And there is _nothing_ like the whole party stopping every couple of hours so the magic wielders can stop and cast a "test spell," just because they are curious.

 

 

 

At any rate, I hope this does someone some good, because I'd hate to think I stayed up this long for no reason at all.

 

 

Good night, Y'all!
 

Duke

 

[Killer Shrike]

A poster from these boards asked me a similar question via email back in the day. Here was my response. Some of it was culled from posts 14 or so years ago from these boards responding to some other poster.

 

 

Hey. 

 

So, ambient magic. I actually did write up an ambient magic system for someone on the HERO Forums many years ago, but I never included it on my site, mostly because I personally don't like ambient magic systems very much. It's a personal preference thing, mostly, as I feel that ambient magic systems tend to put a lot of extra baggage on setting design and crowd out other magic systems for the same setting. I briefly allude to that sort of thing under the header "Baggage Can Trump Self Contained" on the Magic Design Balance page. The short form of which is given as 

 

"A Magic System that has some effect on the environment, has random effects, or requires interaction with some other entity will have more impact on a campaign setting than a system which does not...Similarly a Magic System that requires some unusual component(s) or energy source(s) to work impose on the GM a need to populate the setting with such components or energy sources, and to deal with any logical "ripple" or fallout effects of such proliferation. For instance a Magic System that relies on ambient energies requires the GM to define one or more types of ambient energies, determine how much a given area has at any particular moment, how quickly it recovers, and so forth. Logic ripples from there might include "camping" on spots with high ambient area, meta / tactical ideas like depleting an area's ambient energy to inconvenience opponents, and other related ideas..."

 

 http://www.killershrike.com/fantasyhero/HighFantasyHero/shrikeMagicDesign_Balance.aspx 

 

That aside, your design notes mildly remind me of the magic system conversion I did for Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 2e years ago*; the eight winds of magic bearing a strong similarity to the seven 'elements' you note, and the "winds of magic" being a sort of ambient power source. It being Warhammer, the ambient resource is represented as basically random (or..CHAOTIC...one might say), thus avoiding almost all of the typical ambient magic logical traps and adding a fine risk vs reward balancing act to the mix.It also had a way to disincentivize but not entirely forbid the wearing of armor by casters. And so on. 

 

It might be worth your time to check it out.

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/ConversionWH2e/conversionWH2eMagic.aspx?a=1

 

 

*That original WHFRPG2e conversion was later adapted for another non-Warhammer project I collaborated with others on, which we did via a wiki I used to have up called www.killershrike.info ; I took that site down a few years ago as the various contributors had drifted away over the years but it was a fun and prolific thing while it lasted. I have a backup of it laying around and could revisit it if it were useful. I also adapted the variant from the wiki project for the Spellbinder magic system of Here There Be Monsters. 

 

http://www.killershrike.com/HereThereBeMonsters/Mystic_Spellbinders.aspx

 

 

 

Here are the notes I have from the ambient magic I wrote up for someone on the hero forums a very log time ago. This would have been 5e era...perhaps pre-5er. There was more to it, but this is all that survived in my archives.

----------------------------

 

Nature Magic: uses an ambient Magic System tied into the Natural Forces of the world. The stronger the natural forces of an area, the faster a user of Nature Magic can absorb energies with which to work magic. The greater the concentration of nature in an area the higher the REC rating associated with it.(for these purposes consider a roughly 30” radius on average as a good-sized “area”). The Nature Magic REC associated with any given area is determined by the GM, but a guideline follows. 

 

In woodlands and other verdant natural areas with abundant life the Natural Forces will have around a 25 REC or higher, while places with a true dearth of nature such as a bustling urbanized city, deep underground, or a barren desert have 1 REC or less. Most places are in between these extremes. A few places on the planet such as unnatural wastelands created by twisted magic may lack any Natural Forces outright and thus have 0 REC, but these areas are very rare. 

 

A user of Nature Magic can store natural energies within themselves but can only recover these energies at a rate no greater than the ambient Natural Forces REC of the area they are currently in. 

 

This is defined as shown in the following Example: Nature Magic END Reserve: 50, 10 REC. REC Limited by Nature Magic Ambiance. 

 

In this example a the user of Natural Magic could recover 10 points of END to their END Reserve in any area with REC 10 or higher, but could only recover 5 points in an area with REC 5.

 

Simple Spells castable by a single User of Nature Magic (called “Compacts”) are bought as part of an Elemental Control. All Spells must cost END, and all END must come from the Nature Magic END Reserve. All Spells must require KS: Nature Lore Skill Roll.

 

This style of magic also favors complex multi-caster Spells (called “Rites”) requiring many User of Nature Magic; these spells are also bought as part of the Elemental Control but must have the Ritual Limitation applied to them. 

 

Typically (but not always) such Spells also have Extra Time and even Window of Opportunity (1 season). Further, complex Spells often require an OIF; Immobile Focus defined as a Stone Circle or Standing Stone. Standing Stones can be created via a special Rite that basically transforms a carved obelisk of stone into a consecrated Standing Stone; as a side benefit, Standing Stones always boost the Natural Magic recovery of an area by +10 per Standing Stone..

 

User of Nature Magic Package Deal:

3 KS: Nature Lore (INT) 

 

8 +4 to KS: Nature Lore

 

15 Natural Magic END Reserve. 50 END, 10 REC; Limited by Natural Magic Ambiance (-0)

 

35 Nature Magic EC (70 point powers)

 

9 1)  Healing Womb of Hands: Healing 6 1/2d6 (max. Healed Points: 39) (Can Heal Limbs) (70 Active Points); Extra Time 1 Turn (Post-Segment 12) (-1 1/4), Character May Take No Other Actions (-1/4), Concentration 0 DCV (-1/2), Others Only (-1/2), Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) [7 END]

 

18 2)  Bramble and Vine: Change Environment 16" radius, -2 Climbing, -2 DEX, -2" Leaping, -4 PER Roll:  Sight Group, -6" Running, -6" Swinging, Long-Lasting:  1 Hour (100 Active Points); Only in a Forest, Woodland, Jungle, etc (-1 1/2), Extra Time Extra Phase, Only to Activate Constant or Persistent Power (-1/2), Concentration 1/2 DCV (-1/4), Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) [10 END]

 

12 3)  Strength of Oak: (Total: 71 Active Cost, 22 Real Cost) <i>Strong as Oak:</i>  +15 STR, Reduced Endurance 0 END (+1/2) (22 Active Points); No Figured Characteristics (-1/2), Extra Time Full Phase, Only to Activate Constant or Persistent Power (-1/4), Delayed Phase (-1/4), Concentration 1/2 DCV (-1/4), Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4), Linked to Tough as Oak (-1/2), Greater Power is Constant or in use most or all of the time (+1/4) (Real Cost: ? plus <i>Tough as Oak:</i>  Armor (10 PD/10 ED), Hardened (+1/4) (37 Active Points); Ablative BODY or STUN (-1), Increased Endurance Cost 4x END (-1 1/2), Only In Certain Circumstances:  Uncommon (+1), Extra Time Full Phase, Only to Activate Constant or Persistent Power (-1/4), Delayed Phase (-1/4), Visible (-1/4), Concentration 1/2 DCV (-1/4), Costs Endurance Only Costs END to Activate (-1/4), Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4) (Real Cost: 9) plus <i>Dense as Oak:</i>  Density Increase (400 kg mass, +10 STR, +2 PD/ED, -2" KB), Costs END Only To Activate (+1/4) (12 Active Points); Extra Time Full Phase, Only to Activate Constant or Persistent Power (-1/4), Delayed Phase (-1/4), Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points -1/4), Concentration 1/2 DCV (-1/4), Linked to Tough as Oak (-1/2), Greater Power is Constant or in use most or all of the time (+1/4) (Real Cost: 5) [5 END]

 

Total Cost: 65

 

Sample Rote Spell for 35 point Nature Magic EC:

 

39 4)  Ban of all Paths : Change Environment 1" radius, -10 Running, -4" Leaping, -6" Swinging, Long-Lasting:  1 Month, Personal Immunity (+1/4), Selective Target (+1/2), Conforming (+1/2), Megascale (1" = 100 km; +3/4), Can Be Scaled Down:  1" = 1km (+1/4) (299 Active Points); Extra Time 20 Minutes, Only to Activate Constant or Persistent Power (-1 1/4), Character May Take No Other Actions (-1/4), OIF Immobile Durable (Focus (Standing Stone); -1 1/2), Gradual Effect 20 Minutes (-1), Ritual (5-8) (-3/4), No Range (-1/2), Concentration 1/2 DCV (-1/4), Requires A Skill Roll And A Skill Roll (No Active Point penalty to Skill Roll -1/4) [30 END]

 

 

---------------------

 

Some vestige of the underlying idea was adapted into the Derwydda variant of Spellweaving, but I dropped the ambient facet of it due to my personal preferences.

 

http://www.killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/MagicSystems/spellweavingDerwydda.aspx

 

[Killer Shrike]

Anyway, old business out of the way, lets apply some current thought to it. Don't judge me, I have insomnia.

 

So, when we talk about "ambient" magic, its typically referring to some kind of external resource that can be harvested for power.

 

If the resource is not universally available, or the resource is not infinite, then the resource is a commodity. 

 

If the demand for the commodity exceeds it's supply, there will be significant implications to the nature of the setting.

 

So, when we talk about "ambient" magic, I assume we're talking about a finite resource that is of variable plenitude. 

 

____

 

Next we have to decide what the "ambient" resource represents. Is it some kind of natural or elemental or life energy? Is it some kind of magical mcguffin or "mana"? Is it deific or malefic, benign or malign, axiomatic or entropic, or otherwise "biased" in some moral, ethical, ideological, or mythological way? Or is it more like a mineral, like a magical rock or material that is harvested / mined / farmed / milked? Basically, what is this stuff and where did it come from? What is it's purpose, it's raison d'être?

 

____

 

Next we have to decide what you can do with the resource, and if using the resource is binary in nature (you either have it and can thus do stuff that requires it or you don't and thus can't), or is it more of a boost like magical nitro? Is it variable? If some is good is a lot better? Is there such a thing as using too much or too little? 

 

Is it addictive? What are people generally willing to do to get it? What are people generally willing to do to stop someone else from getting it?

 

____

 

Are there subdivision within the resource? Red, black, blue, green, white resource? Good / Evil resource? White or Black magic via resource? And so on. Is it just the one kind of resource, or are there different varieties and if so what differentiates them.

 

____

 

And so on. This is the main reason I personally don't like ambient magic system in generic settings. It raises a lot questions about the nature of the setting itself. It puts a lot of demands on the setting, and on the GM, to keep track of the ambient levels of the world as the adventurers bumble from scene to scene.

 

I think that this sort of system should be reserved for specific settings, and should be very tightly intertwined with the definition of the setting wherein the ambient magic system is used. Generally, you may be better off first coming up with a cool idea for the resource(s) used by such a magic system, and then build the setting around that idea. 

 

____

 

Are we on target, do we want to keep going? Are are we missing the mark?

 

 

 

 

 

[Greywind]

The only system I know of that uses anything similar is SPI's DragonQuest.

 

High mana areas didn't require as much Fatigue to cast spells. Low mana areas required more Fatigue or casting wasn't even possible at all.

[Christopher]

17 hours ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

While its fun to work out how things work in the rules and come up with "how would you build a rainstorm" honestly as GM you can just say "this is what happens."  No power is needed.

While I agree, it can still be helpfull to have a AP to slap on virtually anything

Sometimes you need the Defenses and Body of a Doomsday laser. And it really helps if you figured out the rough AP beforehand.

[Chris Goodwin]

On 11/4/2018 at 4:04 AM, Greywind said:

The only system I know of that uses anything similar is SPI's DragonQuest.

 

High mana areas didn't require as much Fatigue to cast spells. Low mana areas required more Fatigue or casting wasn't even possible at all.

 

GURPS uses it pretty extensively.  Most areas are normal mana and everything works as listed.  In low mana areas spellcasting is harder; in high mana areas it's easier; in very high mana areas anyone can learn and cast spells.  

 

If I were going to use it in a Fantasy Hero game I wouldn't just spring it on the players; anyone playing spellcasters would know before play starts that there are areas of lower and higher mana in the world, and what their generally known effects are.

[Christopher]

I really like the shadowrun approach, because they had 6 version to refine it. So I am going to quote it here a little:

Both low mana and high mana areas have the same side effects: Reducing your effective magic atribute by the "background count":
"Tough mana is readily available in domains and mana warps, the intensity of so much focused mana works against the magician in a similar way, tainting any attempts to use magic."

 

However, High Mana areas may also be Aspected/Domains:
"If the character works magic in the same paradigm (or one that is sufciently similar) as the domain’s aspect, it is advantageous. In this case, the background count does not reduce Magic as described above. Instead, the Awakened character receives a dice pool bonus for any Magical skill tests and Drain Resistance Tests performed in the domain’s area of influence equal to the background count (up to a limit equal to his Magic attribute).
If the character uses magic in a different or contrary paradigm than the domain’s aspect, the flavor of the mana makes his efforts more difcult, and he suffers the standard Magic reduction described above"

 

Hero System translation could be something around a Drain/Aid combo.

Magic Attribute is part of every Magic related Dicepool. But reducing magic to 0 also disable magic. It can have a even worse effect on spirits.

The bonus to Drain? Most comparable to reduced Endurance cost.

 

 

The thing is that in Shadowrun, such areas are rare. They are kind of like WiFi empty regions*. There are something the GM intentionally places in the adventure, for gamepaly effect.

I had that one Shadowrun group (posted a few quotes on the proper Thread). Our solutions were very magic heavy. So the GM gave us the job to infiltrate a dragon lair (while the dragon was out) for a change. Magic Security was tight. Realspace and Matrix security? Not so much. The environmet allowed all the non-magic characters to shine for a change.

 

Enemies often get to choose were to place their Lairs. So they tend to choose (or even create by existing there) areas with high Background Count Aspected towards them. That gives enemies a "home advantage".

A ward is in the end the same as making a wall. A aspected Domain the same making a camp in the forest because you got good hunting skills.

 

 

*Starting with 5E, a ton of work was put into making hacking more like Magic. The wireless networks are very simialr to domains and Astral Space. Technomancers are basically "hacker mages", down to not being able to use Cyberware and using "Sprites" as spirit equivalent.

 

 

Even the Shadowrun Comptuer games from Harebrained Studios manages their own interpreations. The game map is hex-based with Cover. Think X-Com like, just not so unfair.
There are "Ley" or "Dragon Lines". If you place a character on those, you get buffs (accuracy, damage, ability to have attacks "bounce"). But the best of those lines tend to be in rather bad palces: Often out of cover. Or at least no in favorable cover. Or surrounded by iother good cover, you want your ranged combatants to be in. Wich in turn makes you a good AoE (Grenade) target.

[C-Note]

How about using "Naked Advantage" or "Drain" to simulate differences in ambient Mana? For example:  In areas of high Mana, the Endurance (Mana) cost of casting spells is reduced.

 

60 Points - High Mana Area:  Naked Advantage: Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4) for up to 100 Active Points, Trigger (Spellcaster Enters High Mana Area, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; +3/4), Area Of Effect (50m Radius; +1 1/4) (75 Active Points); Usable By Other (-1/4), Grantor can only grant the power to others.

 

This way, you have an Active Point value for the High Mana area for purposes of affecting it.

 

With "Naked Advantage", spellcasting could also become faster (Autofire), longer-lasting (Damage Over Time), easier (No Skill Roll Required), etc.  Different High Mana areas could provide different Advantages.

 

For Low Mana Areas, an AoE Drain could be used to make spellcasting more difficult.  Again, you would have an Active Cost for the Low Mana area for purposes of affecting it.

[dmjalund]

Low mana areas could have power negation against all dice based powers.