What would you like to see HERO games produce next?

[Doc Democracy]

One thing that is often mooted but I don't think has yet been done, is a Powered by HERO style game.  A ready to play game, using the HERO system underneath, but tailored for a particular genre.  The book would be all that anyone needed to lift and play.  Expert users would be able to tinker with things (if they had the core books) the assumptions/builds etc would be available online for those hardcore users.

 

For everyone else it would simply be a pick up and play set of rules with an adventure and characters all ready to go...

 

It is something I daydream about doing, perhaps when I retire and have endless days to fiddle again....

 

Doc

[Ninja-Bear]

2 hours ago, Killer Shrike said:

A lite-hero book similar to Basic Hero or Sidekick, priced to sell.  I intro'd way more people to the Hero System successfully using those books than by any other means combined. I used to buy 5-10 at a time and give them away. If the game isn't gaining new players, it's dying. The way to get new players is by lowering the bar / making the product more accessible, available, and attainable. 

 

 

The problem the Basic Rulebook was to me was that DOJ didn’t do anything else with it nor made owners of it particularly welcomed. If you were new to the forums, would’ve you known where to ask a question? Was there any supplements like villain books or adventures  that could’ve been used by Basic? And the poster on the boards themselves seemed (at the time) anti-Basic rulebooks too.

[Killer Shrike]

The Basic Rulebook \ Sidekick were not a different game; they were just slimmed down. The existing supplements from their respective editions were and are usable with them. 

 

As to posters (at the time) anti- comment, I don't recall it that way but perhaps. Experienced players are often dismissive of gateway / entry products; all that eliteness they've amassed I suppose. That doesn't change the fact that getting new blood is essential to growing and maintaining a consumer base.

[Ninja-Bear]

I agree Killer Shrike howeveri still maintain that Hero System should’ve offered more to help with the new blood.

[Killer Shrike]

Yes, definitely. A system with such a high barrier to entry is daunting to many. If I had a nickel for every person who said something along the lines of "I heard that it was cool, but the rulebook is so thick!"...well...I'd have a lot of nickels.

[Joe Walsh]

A HERO System Basic that breaks down the game for newbies would be great. I've tried to sketch one out based on my experiences teaching HERO to new players, but the problem I always run into is that it's a game that has a higher level of irreducible complexity than most systems.

 

Even a system as amenable to high complexity as GURPS can be run very simply, just by using pregens and turning all the options off. But with HERO, as soon as you get into combat, you need to understand the Speed Chart and all its implications, including aborting and holding actions; Turns, Segments, and Phases; 0 Phase, 1/2 Phase, 1 Phase actions; and the whole host of other things built around HERO System's unique method of keeping time in combat.

 

I've tried giving everyone the same SPD, but a) players still need to know about post-Segment-12 Recoveries so they plan strategically based on them, b) having absolutely everyone and everything at the same SPD is very unusual for HERO games at almost any level of play, so it's only a short-term fix, and c) seeing how having a variety of different SPDs plays out in the system and the strategic opportunities that presents is something players need to experience in order to understand WHY they're being asked to learn this seemingly Baroquely designed system.

 

I keep working on finding the best way to teach HERO, but sometimes it seems hopeless. Maybe it's just a system with steep learning curves, not all of which are amenable to gentle on-ramps.

 

 

 

[archer]

What I would really, really like is a free guideline PDF detailing how to contact HERO (or its sub-contracting companies) and work out an arrangement to write content for them.

 

I'd like for it to include everything from initial contact, what preliminary work to need to have done in order to make a successful pitch to the company, preferred word processing program (if any), recommended length for various projects, contact information for artists who've done work for HERO in the past (or however that's done), and answers to any other questions which are usually asked.

 

I'd also like to know if the company reveals to prospective writers how well similar products have sold in the past. I've had a poor track record of actually getting paid for non-gaming content which I've created so it's kind of a sticking point for me that I get paid something, eventually rather than getting promises and no check ever being written (or promised staff jobs which never materialize).

[Duke Bushido]

9 hours ago, GM Joe said:

A HERO System Basic that breaks down the game for newbies would be great.

 

 

I don't want this to come off condescending to 6e; everyone knows I don't like it, but I still totally respect that it has fans and supporters and that Steve likely had to sell off bit of soul to pump out that much verbiage.  With that in mind, have you considered starting them out on an older version?  Something like 3e or 5e Sidekick.  No; that doesn't solve the concept problem, but with less-intimidating books, it's easier to keep them curious about what there is to learn.  Descriptions on everything are shorter and easier to digest as well when you eliminate the minutae of the thirteen exceptions and special situations and unique intera-  well, you see where I'm going.  The more the can digest right away, the more quickly you can work on other sticking points.  Once they get a smooth grasp and play a few sessions, ease them into HEROpedia Britannica of 6e.

 

Im not being remotely hyperbolic when I tell you I was stoked by the idea of a 6e (though confused about why the would roll it out dead on the heels of the still-new 5e.), but when it actually happened-- and let's keep in mind that I love HERO to the point that if I am remotely interested in trying another game, the first thing I do is convert it to HERO-- when I first _saw_ 6e, the very first thing that popped into my head was (forgive me; I'm quoting) "there is no way I Hell I am going to read that; I'm too damned old for a project that big.". Now that's coming from a guy who was already intimately familiar with the game!  Imagine seeing it for the first time, and holding in the back of your mind the legends and tales of the complexity of the game to begin with.  There's a pretty good chance on a subconscious level he's actually working against himself when he thinks hes trying to learn it. 

 

Now this _is_ just a hypothesis; fourty-odd years ago my med school scholarship fell through so I neve did achieve my dream of becoming a psychiatrist. :(. All that being said, though, I think there's something to, particularly if you're a newbie. 

 

Quote

 

I've tried to sketch one out based on my experiences teaching HERO to new players, but the problem I always run into is that it's a game that has a higher level of irreducible complexity than most systems.

 

Ignore them.  At least for a while, as much as possible.  Work them in one at a time, as the players get a good grasp of the previous one. 

 

Does  this suggest that it might take a few months to teach someone the contents of two (or more, if APDs and Handbooks are important to you), well yes, it does, honestly, it should. While it's been many a decade since my last formal book learnin', I recall having nine weeks, 90 minutes a day in class and two hours of intensive home study every day to learn that much material.  It's not completely reasonable to expect someone wanting to try out a new diversion to invest that sort of effort, or to get better results in a shorter time. 

 

My new youth group, for example.  My regular groups have been using the same 2/4e-based house rules for years.  That is, 2e, modified by the best (to us) changes of later editions, and adding some of the newer Powers, etc, and retrograding them to make them feel a bit more 2e.

 

I wasn't going to dump a 3" binder full of notes on a bunch of kids.  We are using nothing but my old, beaten-up and colored-in 2e book, and it's going great.  

 

Get something rolling: get a story going, and introduce the more difficult things once they see the concepts in action. 

 

Quote

as soon as you get into combat, you need to understand the Speed Chart and all its implications, including aborting and holding actions; Turns, Segments, and Phases; 0 Phase, 1/2 Phase, 1 Phase actions; and the whole host of other things built around HERO System's unique method of keeping time in combat.

 

Sometimes a change of name is enough:

 

"a turn in this game isn't like a board game.  Turns measure time.  One turn means that twelve seconds of" character time" have passed.  You decide what your character does during that twelve seconds.  You have more than one "go" during that twelve seconds.   Your Speed score tells us how many goes you have in twelve seconds.  Because some characters are faster than others, the get more go's.  Until wee get the hang of this, lets keep our heroes in the range of 4-6 for the first few games. " (this let's them see the chari in action, but everyone gets several phases, and no one is waiting too terribly long) 

 

" on your go, you can attack of you can move.  (if you don't think half move and attack will confound them, mention that as well, and don't hit them with a rule like 'attack actions end your phase' ; simply state" attacks always go last. "

 

Don't bother with zero-phase stuff.  Simply mention that some things take no time.  For the first couple of sessions, treat half phase actions that way.  Don't get too stuck on the order of operations with half phase stuff.  Work up to it over a couple of sessions. 

 

Don't bother splitting hairs on resistant defense, hardened defense, etc.  Not until they have some combat experience.  Discuss End (briefly and casually), but don't track it tightly for a bit.  Describe using end and the strain narrative ly, a plain that it is the endurance they are using. 

 

At post twelve, just remind them that every turn, the get some End back from their REC score. 

 

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I've tried giving everyone the same SPD, but a) players still need to know about post-Segment-12 Recoveries so they plan strategically based on them, 

 

 

 

Don't ever expect that.  That's expecting them to grab onto a meta mechanic and implement it before they even get some of the concepts.  Further, some people just aren't ever going to do it.  I know I don't.  I know folks who do.  There's nothing wrong with it, I just prefer to play to the personality of the character, who isn't likely thinking "in nine seconds, I'm going feel a bit fresher than I do right now." 

 

Sure, if you're playing pure tactics, it's important, but if you're learning the whole game, give tactics and tweaking some time. 

 

 

Note:

 

I claim no expertise in teaching anyone anything, and I have certainly never tried to teach 5e to anyone as we all felt it was just 4e with split hairs and tweaks, and there is no chance in seven hells that I am ever going to run or play under 6e (even though the HERO loyalist in me would like to own the hardback). 

 

These are simply things that have worked extremely well for me (the techniques and keeping in mind the concepts behind them) for thirty years or so. 

 

Honesty, I would love to hear what has worked for other folks, but that might be best in a separate there's. 

 

 

Duke

 

[Chris Goodwin]

Back in the 3rd edition days, my group was pretty heavily into all of the Hero games.  We clicked with Danger International, and used it for a lot of very different games.  I think it worked extremely well as a teaching game, partly because of the lower general power level of characters, partly because it was modern day and thus more familiar, but also partly because there were no Powers.  We could focus on getting the game started quickly, and there's a lot less math almost all of which is addition and subtraction.

[Lord Liaden]

On 11/2/2018 at 6:55 AM, Doc Democracy said:

One thing that is often mooted but I don't think has yet been done, is a Powered by HERO style game.  A ready to play game, using the HERO system underneath, but tailored for a particular genre.  The book would be all that anyone needed to lift and play.  Expert users would be able to tinker with things (if they had the core books) the assumptions/builds etc would be available online for those hardcore users.

 

For everyone else it would simply be a pick up and play set of rules with an adventure and characters all ready to go...

 

It is something I daydream about doing, perhaps when I retire and have endless days to fiddle again....

 

Doc

 

How do you see this as being different from the distinct pre-Fourth Edition Hero genre game books, from before the system consolidation?

[Doc Democracy]

5 hours ago, Lord Liaden said:

 

How do you see this as being different from the distinct pre-Fourth Edition Hero genre game books, from before the system consolidation?

 

Even those books were broad and designed for a GM to build his own campaign/game.  You could not pick it up, create a few characters that were game specific and play five or six sessions.

 

In each one you had to get your head round the game system and everything else, it was like a Ferrari with no body work, all the nuts, bolts and infrastructure on show.  

 

My my thoughts for these would be that all the GM decisions would have been made and baked into the game.  A neophyte GM with neophyte players should be able to pick it up and play it almost immediately.  It would have no rules in it that were not needed for the game at hand and no powers/talents/skills just in case.  A fully baked cake rather than a pantry full of ingredients, or even a pantry with a few cookbooks.

 

My favourite of the old ones was Justice Inc, I LOVED that box set.  But instead of Justice Inc you would sell a game called The Shadow, or The Land that time Forgot, or The Untouchables.  Each one would be set up differently, with different aspects of the core rules exposed, just the ones needed for that particular game.

 

i would like a HERO nerd download to be available where the author explains, for those with access to the core rules (and an interest in such things), what decisions she made in setting up the game.

 

I would also expect a lot of design time given to the character sheets as these would be almost everything the players had and would need to ooze campaign detail and colour.

 

That is my vision.  I would want to launch each game with a “celebrity” group playing the first adventure online.  If you were really going to push the boat out, there would be Roll20 available packs for each one so that those inspired by the online videos could immediately go play the game...

 

Doc

[Joe Walsh]

16 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

[H]ave you considered starting them out on an older version? 

 

I'm sorry; I should have mentioned that I run 4e these days. My progression was 2e-3e-4e {10 years of role-playing burnout}, then 6e-CC-4e. I'm happy with 4e, salted with house rules and a few nuggets from other editions as needed. But 2e and 3e are awesome as well, and I'm glad 3e has a chance at a new life via the recent Champions Now Kickstarter.

 

Quote

We are using nothing but my old, beaten-up and colored-in 2e book, and it's going great.  

 

That's awesome.

 

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Get something rolling: get a story going, and introduce the more difficult things once they see the concepts in action. 

 

You're right, the key is finding the minimum to teach that will provide enough fun experiences to encourage more learning.  The folks I'm teaching aren't new to tabletop RPGs, so I felt it necessary to show them right away that learning this new system is worth the effort. HERO System's mechanically meaningful tactical options are something I see as a strength of the system, and the Speed Chart is key to that. So that's why I felt the need to go into some detail about that stuff.

 

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Sometimes a change of name is enough:

 

"a turn in this game isn't like a board game.  Turns measure time.  One turn means that twelve seconds of" character time" have passed.  You decide what your character does during that twelve seconds.  You have more than one "go" during that twelve seconds.   Your Speed score tells us how many goes you have in twelve seconds.  Because some characters are faster than others, the get more go's.  Until wee get the hang of this, lets keep our heroes in the range of 4-6 for the first few games. " (this let's them see the chari in action, but everyone gets several phases, and no one is waiting too terribly long) 

 

Great minds think alike.

 

Quote

" on your go, you can attack of you can move.  (if you don't think half move and attack will confound them, mention that as well, and don't hit them with a rule like 'attack actions end your phase' ; simply state" attacks always go last. "

 

Don't bother with zero-phase stuff.  Simply mention that some things take no time.  For the first couple of sessions, treat half phase actions that way.  Don't get too stuck on the order of operations with half phase stuff.  Work up to it over a couple of sessions. 

 

Don't bother splitting hairs on resistant defense, hardened defense, etc.  Not until they have some combat experience.  Discuss End (briefly and casually), but don't track it tightly for a bit.  Describe using end and the strain narrative ly, a plain that it is the endurance they are using. 

 

At post twelve, just remind them that every turn, the get some End back from their REC score. 

 

Those are some nice bits of advice. Thanks!

 

Quote

Don't ever expect that.  That's expecting them to grab onto a meta mechanic and implement it before they even get some of the concepts.  Further, some people just aren't ever going to do it.  I know I don't.  I know folks who do.  There's nothing wrong with it, I just prefer to play to the personality of the character, who isn't likely thinking "in nine seconds, I'm going feel a bit fresher than I do right now." 

 

Sure, if you're playing pure tactics, it's important, but if you're learning the whole game, give tactics and tweaking some time.

 

I'd agree wholeheartedly if I were teaching tabletop RPG newbies. In those situations, I keep the mechanics to myself for the most part, dealing them out naturally in dribs and drabs over the course of many play sessions. But in this case, I'll have to think about what you've said, and see if I can improve my approach based on it. Thanks!

 

[Scott Ruggels]

On 11/2/2018 at 3:16 AM, Killer Shrike said:

 

I agree in spirit; I never cared for the attempt to link all the timelines of the various product lines together either. Didn't make any sense to me. But it was easily ignored. I also didn't care for Turakian Age or Valdorian Age, and used other settings (mostly Greyhawk) for my Fantasy Hero campaign  

 

In the other thread, Fantasy vs. Superheroes, in the discussion, the most popular and selling background setting, especially for casual players is generic, D&D fantasy. Anything other than that needs a kickstarter to fund publication, and then sink into obscurity later. Sure there are a few exceptions, but they are beloved properties, and still niche (like us). When Magic the Gathering hit at Worldcon in 1993, it hit a stable tabletop RPG industry. Who knew that it, and the growing capabilities of home game consoles would nearly kill table top? The money was sucked right out of the hobby. 

 

I think its it’s only because of game groups, mostly D&D, that kept playing through that interregnum, that the hobby slowly grew back. I only came back to it because a friend in the social environment, Second Life, bemoaned the fact it was hard to find new players for hisD&D game until he found Roll20.net. I expressed curiosity, and informed him I had used to play D&D. Now I am happily back (and will be sitting down to a 5e game in two hours). 

 

I know now how many of you look at Greyhawk Generic Fantasy like looking at a sardine flavored wedding cake, but that is what is accessible to the mainstream. The other thing is that table top is gaining popularity because of celebrities streaming tabletop games on YouTube and Twitch. Adventure League which is slowly pushing out card games at the hobby shops isn’t hurting the growth. My realm where I play now, VTT, mostly Roll20.net, has implemented scripts for D20, D&D5e, Pathfinder, Shadowrun, and FATE. Hero is not well represented there yet. It should be. I am just putting it out there. I can’t put my money where my mouth is, because I cannot program or script, and I have been medically retired and am on a fixed income in an expensive city, but I offer ideas freely from how ever many years of experience.  What I think needs to be done is more evangelizing out among the people using a background that is already familiar with, so the learning of the system is the first priority. Then we can branch out into other backgrounds and optional rules. Getting the system out in front of people, on VTTs,  streaming, or running a game for new players at the game shop or convention would help things a lot. 

[Scott Ruggels]

On 11/2/2018 at 3:55 AM, Doc Democracy said:

One thing that is often mooted but I don't think has yet been done, is a Powered by HERO style game.  A ready to play game, using the HERO system underneath, but tailored for a particular genre.  The book would be all that anyone needed to lift and play.  Expert users would be able to tinker with things (if they had the core books) the assumptions/builds etc would be available online for those hardcore users.

 

For everyone else it would simply be a pick up and play set of rules with an adventure and characters all ready to go...

 

It is something I daydream about doing, perhaps when I retire and have endless days to fiddle again....

 

Doc

 

Isnt that MHI?

[Doc Democracy]

It might be, I actually avoided buying it because I have issues with the author of the novels...

[Duke Bushido]

1 hour ago, Doc Democracy said:

It might be, I actually avoided buying it because I have issues with the author of the novels...

 

 

Man, I've got enough typos in that wall of text to make a 4th edition source book!  Sorry about that.  It was pretty late, and my vision gets wiggly when I get tired.

 

See?  That's what makes this - - or any other hobby, really-- great!  People with totally opposite opinions can still come together and share ideas, not just respectfully, but joyously, happy to speak to each other, and happy to listen.  It's wonderful.  (in this case, the difference is I really like Curea (though I'm sure I misspelled it), but really dislike MHI.  It's too teeny-bopper macho for my tastes.  His humor stuff, though, is awesome: "That's a lot of Bear Gryllses.".

 

So Doc and I disagree about some loudmouth author.  So what?  Doesn't make me think one iota less of Doc: he's still the great, funny, intelligent, helpful guy he was yesterday. 

 

 

Gah--  I started with a digression; my deepest apologies.  (not a whole lot of sleep last night. Or rather, this morning) 

 

At any rate, I just wanted to mention that while I really dislike the MHI books, I intend to pick up at least the rulebook because, as with CC and FH Complete, I _want_ someone at a decision-making level to look around and think "hmm.  These complete games in ONE THIN BOOK seem to sell.  Maybe we should focus on a ONE THIN Book version of the rules.  Maybe that will bring in some new players, and some new customers to help support HERO games." 

 

I don't know who they would tap to write it, though.  (you busy next month, Lord Liaden? :rofl:).  While I think Steve has a gift for writing and organizing a book and keeping everything clear and navigable, I think he has a Psych Lim that prevents him from writing less than four hundred pages on any subject.  (Dividing MHI into two books off the bat didn't fool anybody, Steve ;).)

 

But as I said, I am going to get it to support the work that went I to ONE THIN BOOK.  I would like to say I am not going to pick up "players guides" and "equipment guides" and "bestiaries" and all that other stuff that floods out on top of a popular property so as to reinforce the idea that what a lot of us want is ONE THIN BOOK, but it loses value as a statement when prefaced with "I don't much like the property being simulated," dontcha think?

 

(in fairness to the efforts that go into sourcebooks and such, I do pick them up as supplemental to properties I _like_.  I've even picked up such things for Fantasy HERO, as I have an odd fondness for it.  I just want to be able to pick up _only_ what I need for what I'm doing right then.  It's both more practical l ("I  only need the rules and a small bit of flavor for tomorrow's character-building jam" or "I need some African animals to populate the map for next week's cliffhanger!"). 

 

There are so many advantages to the OTB approach: it's easier to sort through, I only need to grab and carry what I want to use, and getting what I want becomes a hell of a lot more affordable when I don't need to buy eight hundred pages of stuff I don't want, won't use, but will still have to wade through to find the bits for which I bought the book. 

[Spence]

On 11/2/2018 at 5:24 AM, Ninja-Bear said:

The problem the Basic Rulebook was to me was that DOJ didn’t do anything else with it nor made owners of it particularly welcomed. If you were new to the forums, would’ve you known where to ask a question? Was there any supplements like villain books or adventures  that could’ve been used by Basic? And the poster on the boards themselves seemed (at the time) anti-Basic rulebooks too.

 

It wasn't that they were anti-Basic.  It was that the old guard had already decided everything for you and if you asked questions that even implied you didn't drink the cool aid they got miff'ed. 

 

On 11/2/2018 at 3:55 AM, Doc Democracy said:

One thing that is often mooted but I don't think has yet been done, is a Powered by HERO style game.  A ready to play game, using the HERO system underneath, but tailored for a particular genre.  The book would be all that anyone needed to lift and play.  Expert users would be able to tinker with things (if they had the core books) the assumptions/builds etc would be available online for those hardcore users.

 

For everyone else it would simply be a pick up and play set of rules with an adventure and characters all ready to go...

 

It is something I daydream about doing, perhaps when I retire and have endless days to fiddle again....

 

Doc

 

You've touched on what I believe is the reason Hero has gone from the #1 known Supers RPG to "wasn't it a hideously over complicated game that died in the 90's".  Even if the game itself is far easier to play that many of the current top RPG's.  Character Generation in Hero is actually easy, once you have actually played though a few game sessions to experience how all the pieces actually work in-play.   If they had produced actual beginners boxes, adventures and campaigns that could be played, new blood would have had a chance to pick up the game.   Kind of like literally all of the currently successful RPG's do.  It's one of the reasons I rarely come by here anymore and am shifting my game.  I hacen't decided on 4th or 5th Ed yet.  5th has more swagger but Fred has HD. 

 

But with 6th dead and the ashes scattered there isn't too much need to visit often.  Except to see if something changed, of course.

[Brian Stanfield]

6 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

 

Isnt that MHI?

 

4 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

It might be, I actually avoided buying it because I have issues with the author of the novels...

 

Monster Hunter International is an excellent example of how things could be. Justice, Inc. was also an excellent example. Get all the rules set in terms of the setting, give players a range of simpler choices in character creation, and provide some adventures to test drive the game. MHI could have been wildly successful if politics hadn't sunk that project.

 

So why isn't there Game of Thrones HERO, or Firefly HERO, or anything else like that? Money. And DOJ has none of it to leverage these sorts of IP adaptations. It would be awesome if they could.

 

13 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

 

Even those books were broad and designed for a GM to build his own campaign/game.  You could not pick it up, create a few characters that were game specific and play five or six sessions.

 

In each one you had to get your head round the game system and everything else, it was like a Ferrari with no body work, all the nuts, bolts and infrastructure on show.  

 

My my thoughts for these would be that all the GM decisions would have been made and baked into the game.  A neophyte GM with neophyte players should be able to pick it up and play it almost immediately.  It would have no rules in it that were not needed for the game at hand and no powers/talents/skills just in case.  A fully baked cake rather than a pantry full of ingredients, or even a pantry with a few cookbooks.

 

My favourite of the old ones was Justice Inc, I LOVED that box set.  But instead of Justice Inc you would sell a game called The Shadow, or The Land that time Forgot, or The Untouchables.  Each one would be set up differently, with different aspects of the core rules exposed, just the ones needed for that particular game.

 

i would like a HERO nerd download to be available where the author explains, for those with access to the core rules (and an interest in such things), what decisions she made in setting up the game.

 

I would also expect a lot of design time given to the character sheets as these would be almost everything the players had and would need to ooze campaign detail and colour.

 

That is my vision.  I would want to launch each game with a “celebrity” group playing the first adventure online.  If you were really going to push the boat out, there would be Roll20 available packs for each one so that those inspired by the online videos could immediately go play the game...

 

Doc

 

I agree. Justice, Inc. was a truly amazing set. It should have become a model for how all the games could have been. But even JI gave a set of rules that included a list of skills and weird abilities that players could choose from. It took away all the choices that weren't necessary for the setting (only a few powers, etc.), but it didn't necessitate that you have a different game for The Shadow, Forgotten Lands, Untouchables, etc. The game gave just enough of the rules to allow for variance, but not so much that it prevented easy absorption by new players. The adventures include were simple, fun, and showed the possibilities you may have when playing that game. 

 

I don't remember what I chose for the poll anymore, but I know I did choose "Adventure Modules" because, as you point out, having quick and easy adventures set up and ready to go will help get players going. With a range of pre-gen characters, or simple package deals, there is enough to show the rules at work without peeling back the skin and showing the terrifying depth of mechanics. And I totally agree with you: there ought to be the nerd download supplement, or appendix, that shows all the nuts and bolts for those who are ready to grow into the system. This is the one thing that HERO gets wrong every time: give a simple, basic presentation of the rules for new players, and let them grow into the full system.

 

While HERO System Basic Rulebook is a great introduction to 6e, it is still genre neutral and requires a whole set of supplements to even get payers ready to go. Fantasy Hero Complete did a good job of combining things in a concise rule set, but then it added a whole lot of PDF material to really confuse the situation. Want to play a class? Go look at that PDF. How about monsters? Look at another PDF. Adventures? There's a decent setting and an adventure arc, including monsters. But one of the problems with the fantasy genre is that it has to explain all the powers in order to explain and facilitate spell usage, so the rule book itself suffers from information overload. 

 

It seems like any genre book could have a "Read this first" PDF manual for beginners, with a quick explanation of the rules, etc., in 30 pages, and then a set of adventures to get everyone going. Then you go to the bigger book (one of the Complete books, for example) to expand from there. Or it could all be included in one box. If we're dreaming here, let's include a box, right?

 

At this point, however, I think we are left to depend on experimental products like Champions Now, which are projects of love, to reinvigorate a new gaming base. DOJ itself seems to be out of ideas and money to make this happen. 

[Scott Ruggels]

5 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

It might be, I actually avoided buying it because I have issues with the author of the novels...

 

I have more issues with many con committees. but that's way off topic.

[Duke Bushido]

1 hour ago, Brian Stanfield said:

MHI could have been wildly successful if politics hadn't sunk that project.

 

This intrigues me.  What happened? 

 

1 hour ago, Brian Stanfield said:

So why isn't there Game of Thrones HERO, or Firefly HERO, or anything else like that? Money. And DOJ has none of it to leverage these sorts of IP adaptations. It would be awesome if they could.

 

Agreed, but do you think there might be something to wanting to pump an MI-like rulebook for an uodated Justice Inc?  As Chris mentioned, JI or its replacements DI or Espionage were _great_ primers to the system and didn't need a lot of setting fluff, being more or less either modern day or ingrained in the public consciousness. 

 

1 hour ago, Brian Stanfield said:

 If we're dreaming here, let's include a box, right?

 

Ooh!  And a pony!  No dream is complete without a pony!  At least, that's what my daughter tells me. 

 

But no dream of a HERO box set is complete without a paper map, a sample adventure or two, some preen villains, and six miniature dice; I know that one for a fact.

 

1 hour ago, Brian Stanfield said:

 

At this point, however, I think we are left to depend on experimental products like Champions Now, which are projects of love, to reinvigorate a new gaming base. DOJ itself seems to be out of ideas and money to make this happen. 

 

 

This is me, keeping all my ugly comments bottled up inside.  :+

 

 

[Scott Ruggels]

1 hour ago, Brian Stanfield said:

It seems like any genre book could have a "Read this first" PDF manual for beginners, with a quick explanation of the rules, etc., in 30 pages, and then a set of adventures to get everyone going. Then you go to the bigger book (one of the Complete books, for example) to expand from there. Or it could all be included in one box. If we're dreaming here, let's include a box, right?

 

At this point, however, I think we are left to depend on experimental products like Champions Now, which are projects of love, to reinvigorate a new gaming base. DOJ itself seems to be out of ideas and money to make this happen. 

 

 There was a PDF discussed in the Fantasy Hero forum, "The Fantasy Hero Primer" which was 28 pages that presented a reasonably good introduction to the rules with  three sample characters.. it was slim and the players I sent it to, expressed interest. Something like that with a simple card stock cover  would be easier to do. (I would volunteer to do some of the cover art for a small fee, so we DON"T have the generic cover, like generic beans at the store.

As to DOJ, I think the biggest problem is distribution. Assume there is NO WAY a modern hobby shop will allow anything but D&D and pathfinder, or expensive German board games to grace their shelves any more. The distribution of table top games has collapsed outside of major publishers.  DOJ needs to work out more online marketing.

[Scott Ruggels]

12 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

This intrigues me.  What happened? 

 

 

What happened is for the non-gaming forum, and frankly I expect there are members on both sides of the argument, and that unless you want a Facebook or Twitter Rage Storm, here, it's best just to drop it.

[Duke Bushido]

7 minutes ago, Scott Ruggels said:

 

What happened is for the non-gaming forum, and frankly I expect there are members on both sides of the argument, and that unless you want a Facebook or Twitter Rage Storm, here, it's best just to drop it.

Thank you very much, Scott! 

 

Staying out of the NGD forums is _always_ sound advice.

 

Consider it dropped. 

 

And thanks again.

[Scott Ruggels]

More than welcome. Glad to help.

[assault]

Another "Powered by HERO" game that failed was PS238.

I think in that case the property was too obscure. It also had the problem that the characters were meant to be kids, making it less attractive to players who didn't want to do that.

That said, it was pretty close to being what I would like to see as a "Powered by HERO" superhero game.

I'd personally scrap all the references to Heroic level games in such a product. Or, naturally, scrap references to Superheroic level games in Heroic games. The result would be a subset of a common set of rules, without distractions and pointless verbiage.

And now I need to start a thread on Superheroic power levels, because I'm thinking about my "Dream/Heartbreaker" version of Champions.