What would you like to see HERO games produce next?

[Scott Ruggels]

1 minute ago, archer said:

If we could come up something similar to Adventurers League to play HERO in LGS's, we could probably get those LGS's to stock HERO products on their shelves. But HERO doesn't have any money to support such a venture and there's no way to convince HERO players across the country to converge upon LGS's across the country once a week to play, and incidentally spend money in the store,  even if you could find the LGS's who would be willing to provide the space.

 

A few months ago I was evangelizing for  VTTs, as those are what got me back into gaming. After a 15-20 year hiatus, I now have two Roll20 games a week. If everything else is moving on line, we should move online. That's where the young, budget conscious, players are.  Maptools?  Battlegrounds, or Roll20.net, if we had a fairly "Plug-n-play" solution that one could slot into any of those and GM, that's how we get the new blood in. We may have to give up on the stores, entirely, at this point, unless the economics change.

 

I found a FLGS a few blocks walk away, and  they advertise table rentals at $2.00 per player, which seems reasonable, but their non- D&D selection is non existent, and their business is mostly CCG's, and this tracks with your above statements.  They run a clean, tight ship, but I don't see any entry without a strong, D&D level demand. (I am not even sure that they run Adventurer's league down there, But I can check after I vote.)

[archer]

12 minutes ago, Scott Ruggels said:

 

 If I found out, something good, I will start a new topic in "Hero System Discussion". There is a Test game on Roll20.net that I am a member o0f, but I don't know how to make it work, other than as a player, and it also uses an external way to track the speed chart (I am assuming Hero Combat Manager).  I would like to clone the tools, but as a free member  I don't think I can. Having to pay for roll20 on a disability income might be a bit of a challenge.  But if I find anything I will promote it.  I think Roll20  or similar may be the best way to get Hero out among younger players, rather than stores.

 

I'm finding that paying for anything on such an income is a challenge.

[Norm]

Mainly I am tired of subscriptions.  Don't mind some of them, but I am starting to feel a bit overwhelmed.  $10/month for this....  $15/month for that....

 

Anyway, I finally went through the store and bought around $30 of supplements and adventures.  Things that I would like to see.

[Joe Walsh]

16 hours ago, archer said:

Most game stores make a lot of their money through comics and cards/tournaments for games like Magic and Yu-Gi-Oh. But both comics and Magic cards/tournaments are going digital which is making it very difficult to keep a LGS in business. Most owners don't have extra money anymore to spend on having an inventory of non-D&D roleplaying games which they might or might not be able to sell.

 

If we could come up something similar to Adventurers League to play HERO in LGS's, we could probably get those LGS's to stock HERO products on their shelves. But HERO doesn't have any money to support such a venture and there's no way to convince HERO players across the country to converge upon LGS's across the country once a week to play, and incidentally spend money in the store,  even if you could find the LGS's who would be willing to provide the space.

 

Yeah, it's a difficult situation. Changing consumer behavior like that would be quite an exciting and daunting undertaking!

 

16 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

A few months ago I was evangelizing for  VTTs, as those are what got me back into gaming. After a 15-20 year hiatus, I now have two Roll20 games a week. If everything else is moving on line, we should move online. That's where the young, budget conscious, players are.  Maptools?  Battlegrounds, or Roll20.net, if we had a fairly "Plug-n-play" solution that one could slot into any of those and GM, that's how we get the new blood in. We may have to give up on the stores, entirely, at this point, unless the economics change.

 

I found a FLGS a few blocks walk away, and  they advertise table rentals at $2.00 per player, which seems reasonable, but their non- D&D selection is non existent, and their business is mostly CCG's, and this tracks with your above statements.  They run a clean, tight ship, but I don't see any entry without a strong, D&D level demand. (I am not even sure that they run Adventurer's league down there, But I can check after I vote.)

 

One of my "when I retire" dreams is to get everything on Discord. Someone did that for GURPS and ended up getting an official blessing for the rules on there. Unfortunately, finding the time for taking on a project like that is impossible with my work schedule.

[Brian Stanfield]

The new economy is moving online to the extent that FLGSs probably won't be around much longer. At least not in the way that we recognize them.

 

This generation of gamers expects to get too many things for free online. They expect their music for free, their news sites for free, their shopping tax-free with free delivery . . . . The brick-and-mortar versions of each of these enterprises is failing before our eyes because they no longer have consumers who pay for their services, and the drop in sales tax is becoming a dire issue for each state. I suppose UPS and FEX-EX are the only ones who are winning at this point. And Amazon, because they own everything. . . .

 

I'm getting off point. I say this because when I was reintroduced to HERO a few years ago with a used copy of 5e, I began looking around online for what was available and where the discussions were happening. I found hero games.com, which has become my favorite resource! Thanks, y'all! But I also found just about anything available in unauthorized PDFs in one way or another. Personally, I've spent a great deal of my own money in the HERO store for most of what I want, and Ebay for some of the things I can't get anymore. But I can pretty much guarantee that new gamers, or new-to-HERO gamers are going to find those PDFs. So not only will the FLGSs not get any of the money, DOJ isn't getting their money either. I suspect this plays a part in their retraction.

 

Many FLGSs, for example, have quit carrying Pathfinder for a couple of reasons: the volume of physical copies keeps taking up more and more shelf space, and fewer people buy them because everything is also available on PDF. I've met a couple of shop owners who got rid of their devoted Pathfinder space because they weren't getting any support from Paizo. In fact, they felt their business was being undercut by Paizo with the PDF market becoming so predominant. And now, of course, most of that stuff is available "for free" online at this point anyway.

 

This, unfortunately, is the world we now live in. I do think, however, that POD may be a good way to offer physical copies at a smaller expense for HERO. They already have so much available at DrivThru. This may be the next generation of physical publication. We'll see. Maybe books will go away completely. I hope not. I still prefer to have a physical copy in my hand.

[Duke Bushido]

Part of why I only allow books to the game.  The only exception is the PDF on my phone, because I know it's bought and paid for legally. 

 

I dont pirate, and I don't support Piracy.  I'm not a stick in the mud, but I, like many others on this very board, I'm sure, have made a little income now and again selling words.  It's not as easy as people think, and if you are doing it because that's your living, or your diaper money, or whatever, you need it. 

 

I know it's an old song by now, but if you have gotten something that has a price tag for free, you have stolen it.  I can't abide a theif. 

 

Like the old pdfs Brian mentioned: at this point, they are _cheap_.   Why take money from the company that made your stuff?  The company that clearly needs it to make more stuff. 

[bluesguy]

I have been in the process of getting almost everything in an electronic form because I don't have shelf space.  I don't see purchased PDFs as piracy.  If you pay for the PDF you own it.  You shouldn't pass around the PDF that would be wrong.

[Scott Ruggels]

4 hours ago, GM Joe said:

One of my "when I retire" dreams is to get everything on Discord. Someone did that for GURPS and ended up getting an official blessing for the rules on there. Unfortunately, finding the time for taking on a project like that is impossible with my work schedule.

 

I am sort of a Discord addict, and our Roll20 group uses Discord instead of Skype and TeamSpeak, but I am confused as to how moving the entire thing to Discord would work?

[Duke Bushido]

27 minutes ago, bluesguy said:

I have been in the process of getting almost everything in an electronic form because I don't have shelf space.  I don't see purchased PDFs as piracy.  If you pay for the PDF you own it.  You shouldn't pass around the PDF that would be wrong.

Purchased copies are not the problem. 

[Joe Walsh]

52 minutes ago, Scott Ruggels said:

I am sort of a Discord addict, and our Roll20 group uses Discord instead of Skype and TeamSpeak, but I am confused as to how moving the entire thing to Discord would work?

 

You're right, of course. I typed Discord when I meant Fantasy Grounds (the GURPS Discord Server being a popular place for GURPS aficionados to hang out). Sorry for the confusion!

 

(I blame my impending 50th birthday...)

 

[Ninja-Bear]

Perhaps what Hero should make is a Basic players guide. What I’m thinking of is a cheap guide which shows a new player/GM which Powers / modifiers can get the most use out of and easier to use in game just so they can get a game up and running.  Then once they get comfortable, then they can add in other powers and limitations as needed or wanted. Perhaps if we can change the perception of Accountant Hero, we can garner new blood?

[Duke Bushido]

You know, N-B, while I hate to agree to the idea that 6e needs _yet another rulebook_, 

 

you may be onto something.

 

There are the Rulebooks, and the Advanced Players Guides.

 

So how about a Basic Player's Guide to go with the Basic Rulebook?  It almost seems....  _right_.   It seems to get away from my own preferences (one self-contained book that _answers_ questions, and doesn't just raise them) by adding even more text, but done in the same vein as the Basic Rulebook-- no fluff, no filler; just the good ideas and the rules clarifications (or whatever the heck goes into a player's handbook.  I've never bought one, and the one I was given for AD&D back in the 80s I swapped for a Fiend Folio because monsters are cooler than more rules.

 

At any rate, I  now want two things!

 

 

[Brian Stanfield]

1 hour ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Perhaps what Hero should make is a Basic players guide. What I’m thinking of is a cheap guide which shows a new player/GM which Powers / modifiers can get the most use out of and easier to use in game just so they can get a game up and running.  Then once they get comfortable, then they can add in other powers and limitations as needed or wanted. Perhaps if we can change the perception of Accountant Hero, we can garner new blood?

 

58 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

You know, N-B, while I hate to agree to the idea that 6e needs _yet another rulebook_, 

 

you may be onto something.

 

There are the Rulebooks, and the Advanced Players Guides.

 

So how about a Basic Player's Guide to go with the Basic Rulebook?  It almost seems....  _right_.   It seems to get away from my own preferences (one self-contained book that _answers_ questions, and doesn't just raise them) by adding even more text, but done in the same vein as the Basic Rulebook-- no fluff, no filler; just the good ideas and the rules clarifications (or whatever the heck goes into a player's handbook.  I've never bought one, and the one I was given for AD&D back in the 80s I swapped for a Fiend Folio because monsters are cooler than more rules.

 

At any rate, I  now want two things!

 

 

 

I hate to say it, but the Basic Rulebook for 6e, plus a Player's Handbook of some sort with examples and advice, would start to look a lot like the 6e, Volume 1 rules, which is perhaps overfull of examples and suggestions, but does exactly what your suggestion, Ninja-Bear.  It seems like a Basic Handbook to supplement the Basic Rulebook would be using 2 books to cover what the 6e1 already does. It might be fewer pages in the end, but I'm not sure by how much. 

 

I just wish they made the two big books, 6e1 and 6e2, available again as POD, even in black and white. They aren't that big in softcover with lighter pages, and don't weigh as much either when done in POD.

[Scott Ruggels]

1 hour ago, Duke Bushido said:

You know, N-B, while I hate to agree to the idea that 6e needs _yet another rulebook_, 

 

you may be onto something.

 

There are the Rulebooks, and the Advanced Players Guides.

 

So how about a Basic Player's Guide to go with the Basic Rulebook?  It almost seems....  _right_.   It seems to get away from my own preferences (one self-contained book that _answers_ questions, and doesn't just raise them) by adding even more text, but done in the same vein as the Basic Rulebook-- no fluff, no filler; just the good ideas and the rules clarifications (or whatever the heck goes into a player's handbook.  I've never bought one, and the one I was given for AD&D back in the 80s I swapped for a Fiend Folio because monsters are cooler than more rules.

 

At any rate, I  now want two things!

 

 

 

This is exactly what FANTASY HERO PRIMER was. which was "How to Play Hero" in 28 pages. It had a good layout, a few pieces of B/W art, and a few  sample characters. If this was printed with a Cardstock cover , with some  reasonable art. and sold for "Magazine prices" ($5.00 or less) I think it would server the purposes for Fantasy Hero or FHC.  Now while this is maybe recreating the old AD&D paradigm, of FHC being the GM's  guide, and FHP being the player's handbook, but this might work.  Following that format, You could do 28 page for each of the Heroic level campaigns (Superheroes get really complicated, quickly). 

 

Just make sure the original author is credited and given a cut.

[Joe Walsh]

Something showing how the game is played (as opposed to how it's talked about on the Internet) would be very helpful, I agree.  CSLs, Presence Attacks, reasonable Characteristic ranges for different types of campaigns, etc.

 

And a GM's guide that explains how to support the feel of a campaign mechanically, with specific examples. A Campaign Recipe Book of sorts.

 

[Brian Stanfield]

One thing I noticed about the 6e rules is that the core information is spread all over the place. Stuff like characteristic ranges, starting points for different types of games, and those sorts of basics should be condensed to a few pages of a PDF for reference. The new character sheets don’t have baseline characteristics printed on them, so it would be helpful to have that reference sheet to help show where expenditures would be most helpful and/or legal in the case of characteristic maxima. 

 

I suppose this this is something I could whip up on my own and add to the downloads section . . . . Now if I weren’t so dang lazy. 

[Scott Ruggels]

3 hours ago, Brian Stanfield said:

One thing I noticed about the 6e rules is that the core information is spread all over the place. Stuff like characteristic ranges, starting points for different types of games, and those sorts of basics should be condensed to a few pages of a PDF for reference. The new character sheets don’t have baseline characteristics printed on them, so it would be helpful to have that reference sheet to help show where expenditures would be most helpful and/or legal in the case of characteristic maxima. 

 

I suppose this this is something I could whip up on my own and add to the downloads section . . . . Now if I weren’t so dang lazy. 

 

That would be most useful.  Just be sure to index the examples to the appropriate rule book pages. 

[Duke Bushido]

So what is or was FH primer? 

[Chris Goodwin]

Right here!

[Duke Bushido]

On October 30, 2018 at 9:41 PM, Duke Bushido said:

I'm gonna need an "other" as well.

 

PDF the rest of 4e (doing it myself is rough on the fingers! ).

Then PDF 3e.

Then 2e.

 

You can see where this is going.

 

Book scans are fine; I don't need an indexed and searchable fresh-typed PDF for an eighty page book.

 

 

Thanks, HERO.

 

Thanks, Jason. 

 

Thanks to the new BOH, I've got a lot of those now.  I wish they were a bit better, but the point is I now have portable versions of most everything I actually play, and there's just no valid complaint against that.  Now I can focus on PDFs that I _have_ to make myself, at least, and can put "better" copies of those others on the back burner (or behind the stove all together).

 

 

On October 30, 2018 at 9:41 PM, Duke Bushido said:

 

Then reprint the 5e genre books!  Or at least put some color covers on the PDFs!  What's the deal?  Did the colored pixels cost more or something?  Or us poor folk just don't deserve it?

 

 

Either one of these is fine, really.  hint-hint

 

 

 

 

 

[Legendsmiths]

On 11/1/2018 at 1:19 PM, bluesguy said:

 I haven't run Narosia and after having read about 1/3 of it I gave up with trying to figure out how to use it.

I'm sorry to hear that. The intent was very much to make a stand-alone product that used the Hero System as its engine but did not require the core books to play. Part of that was to attempt to create a magic system that didn't feel like super powers. I had also hoped that the structure of the book was instructive to non-Hero players (but maybe because of that it was confusing to Hero vets).

 

I've got 2 Narosia adventures mapped and tested (and linked together), with one of them sitting at 60K words. As we've been exploring the market and what gamers in general are looking for, it hasn't been clear what our development path looked like. Narosia was a lot of work to build a stand alone engagement point for fantasy gamers, not unlike Jolrhos, Kamarathin, and even FHC. It was also an experiment to see how we could approach that challenge.

 

Originally our pitch was to do something built only on Basic, but that quickly became impractical as the setting evolved. I ended up developing a Fantasy Hero Quickstart back in the Legion of Heroes days for convention play/teaching. It is a generic version of the Quick Start rules in Narosia and would enable me to have a table of 6 players build a unique fantasy character and then we'd do a short adventure, finishing in 4 hours. I had a ton of fun running that, and the players enjoyed it. I think I even have a podcast video recording of an online demo of it. I focused on trying to make something that was core Hero (unlike Narosia's magic) but simple and flavorful (like arcane magic and divine magic are different). I'm looking at the PDF now and wish I had finalized it (I still may).

 

But here's the challenge--everyone's fantasy is different. Narosia is a perfect example--that's the style of fantasy that I and my group like to play. But we like D&D too, and part of this hobby is the shared experience. Who hasn't shared stories of their first run through a classic module in D&D, or Champions? Establishing a catalyst for shared experience is hard. I believe that why we keep coming back to D&D style play--people know it and, in general, like it.

 

Selling someone on a different kind of fantasy is really, really hard and usually requires a hook: like a setting. Then that means you have to get them to engage in the setting independent of the rules, so now we're kind of stuck. If we work to create a FH product (or any genre for that matter) that is engaging, what's the hook? How fun the game is to play once you have mastered the rules? Unfortunately, that's the Hero System default and that's a barrier to entry. Is the hook then a unique take on non-D&D fantasy? Well, that's a different challenge--and we'd all like to create the next Numenara.

 

Some of us try to strike a balance, like I did in Narosia (new, yet familiar; streamlined, yet detailed), but it's hard to succeed that way.

 

I don't know what the answer is, and I know I'm not the only one that has tried it. There are amazing creators in this community, that have contributed a lot over the years to bringing new people into the fold in concert with all of the efforts of the Hero System Team. I know we have looked at this from multiple angles and executed on those strategies.

 

My take on the state of things is Hero is a hobby game. When you play it, you invest in it. You tweak it. You have homework between games, building new powers and developing your character. That's time in addition to time at the table. The state of the industry today is players want to show up to play, start playing quickly (no 2 hour character design effort), play hard, and then walk away to do something else. They are as gamer as gamers ever were, but they want to play all the things which means they don't have time to be hobby gamers in the same sense that many of us Hero Grognardians have been. Selling Hero to them is a hard sell because its a different mode of play that what they are used to and many of those games that give them their current gaming experiences are good. D&D 5E is an amazing evolution of that game, but it is just enough of an evolution to be more engaging. Could Hero evolve in the same way? I don't know. If it could it would have to be a focused, company-driven effort.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think there is tremendous desire for a campaign setting with adventures for GMs, imagine having a pathfinder-style setup for games for Champions?

[Legendsmiths]

@Christopher R Taylor I couldn’t agree more. That does require us to agree on a setting and I think that’s been the biggest challenge. We all have different ideas on what magic should be like, monsters, metaplot, etc that I don’t know if it’s possible to do that from a fantasy perspective or even a Champions perspective. There is a critical mass required to make that happen and I don’t know as achieving that mass is realistic. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

I agree, although its easier with Champions than Fantasy Hero.  Just pick a city and use established Champions bad guys.  Pathfinder used existing adventures for the campaigns too, so we could use updated or rewritten old adventures for at least one campaign.  It could be a pretty generic city too, doesn't have to be terribly clever or innovative.  If it takes off and the talent is found definitely more could be added with different variations like a dark champions street level one, a cosmic one, etc.

 

I'm working on a FH one, slowly, but I think Narosia could definitely be another.  I think its a wonderful project and concept, one that has inspired me, for sure.

[Spence]

1 hour ago, Christopher R Taylor said:

I think there is tremendous desire for a campaign setting with adventures for GMs, imagine having a pathfinder-style setup for games for Champions?

We've been pushing hard for someone to just admit it might be a good idea for literally years.  Though I wish it might happen, I no longer think it will ever be more than a wish.